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Old 2009-03-20, 11:04   Link #1901
Vallen Chaos Valiant
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Quote:
Originally Posted by SaintessHeart View Post
On a dirty-minded note, I wouldn't want some Navi to replace my Honoka as a bedtime cuddle or procreation partner. I feel that despite me liking 2D girls, one thing they are lacking in is the human touch, both physical and social sense.

It is a pity Sakura can't create a replacement brain for Nami to be more submissive.
Oh, but Imo-chan DOES have the human touch. That's what the maidroids are for.
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Old 2009-03-20, 11:13   Link #1902
Cat Megex
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Tokkan View Post
It was already spelt as "Nerval" on Hako-chan's box screen in episode 10. I'm pretty sure "Nelval" is an Engrishy mistake.
Heh, most likely. I still find it kinda funny, though.

Quote:
Originally Posted by SaintessHeart View Post
Unless the robotic brain has the capability to self-evolve/devolve, it would still be nigh impossible to replicate a human one with nanotechnology.
Note that we already have computer programs that are able to alter their own code based on past input. It's not that hard to imagine an extension to a being that is able to alter its own circuitry based on external stimuli, given the right equipment. ...But that actually has nothing to do with the topic. x_x

Anyway, have you ever read Chobits? If so, then you'll understand what I'm about to say and have no need to read it. If not, read on (unless you don't want to be spoiled about a big plot point from the end of the series, in which case you might not actually want to read the rest of my post either due to the potential indirect spoilers).

Spoiler:


When something is emulated (say, using an emulator to play video game that you don't have the right system for), you want it to work just as well as, or sometimes even better than, the original. While many emulators for video games do have glitches here and there, the overall effect is to run the game much as it would on its original system; often, the emulator will have options that let you make the game look even better than it would otherwise (for example, being able to increase the resolution of the emulated output, among other things). The only downside is that emulators often require high system requirements to function properly.

My point here is that, given enough processing power, storage space, and memory (as well as time, I suppose, as one would have to write the programs required first), one could create an AI that emulates emotions quite well. "Under the hood", so to speak, it would function differently from the way a human's brain produces emotions, but the end result would be very much the same. There may be small glitches here and there, but those could be minimized by self-editing in response to certain external stimuli, or something similar.

To my mind, the emotions of such an AI need not be treated any differently than those of a human; you may think differently, however.

(Of course, we'll probably have to wait until quantum computing becomes commonplace before an AI able to emulate all the ranges and subtleties of human emotion can be created due to the enormous processing power that would be required.)

Also: if the above post reads weirdly at all, note that I did an all-nighter last night to finish a paper that I had to turn in earlier this morning, so I'm kinda tired right now and thus being a bit absentminded. This does not affect the main idea of this post, however, so... I dunno.

EDIT: And yeah, somewhat repeating what people have previously mentioned, now that I look back again, what I described above would be much more easily implemented by simply giving the AI a few simple notes on human emotions to start with, then have it observe and interact with other humans and have it develop its emotions in that manner. It's entirely possible that, in the real world, we will never have an artificial intelligence that is exactly the same as a human, mentally, but even if that's so, it doesn't t mean we won't be able to come very very close.
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Old 2009-03-20, 11:19   Link #1903
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On robot AI and human brains.

A human has 100 billion neurons, each one is like a piece of tiny wire. If you can create a quantum computer, (actually a nano computer would be enough), with the same number of wires, you would have an artificial human brain, an AI.

All you have to do is program a baby mind into the AI, you can get the AI to learn just like a human.

If we know the exact programs to do for a human mind, we can even do it in the present day, just that it would be a super computer size. But with quantum technology, you can squeeze everything into an insignificant space, fundamentally more efficient than a human brain.

Human brains also deteriorate, but quantum brains can probably store virtual data and have near infinite storing capacity, with no need to recycle neurons to learn new things and forget old ones.
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Old 2009-03-20, 11:32   Link #1904
SaintessHeart
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Vallen Chaos Valiant View Post
Oh, but Imo-chan DOES have the human touch. That's what the maidroids are for.
Must.......resist..........the.........moe........ ..

Quote:
Originally Posted by C.A. View Post
Human brains also deteriorate, but quantum brains can probably store virtual data and have near infinite storing capacity, with no need to recycle neurons to learn new things and forget old ones.
That is why I quoted the human touch. It is good to be able to live and learn forever, but if you learn almost everything, where is all that fun in relearning the things you forgot?
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Old 2009-03-20, 11:33   Link #1905
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Quote:
Originally Posted by C.A. View Post
On robot AI and human brains.

A human has 100 billion neurons, each one is like a piece of tiny wire. If you can create a quantum computer, (actually a nano computer would be enough), with the same number of wires, you would have an artificial human brain, an AI.

All you have to do is program a baby mind into the AI, you can get the AI to learn just like a human.

If we know the exact programs to do for a human mind, we can even do it in the present day, just that it would be a super computer size. But with quantum technology, you can squeeze everything into an insignificant space, fundamentally more efficient than a human brain.

Human brains also deteriorate, but quantum brains can probably store virtual data and have near infinite storing capacity, with no need to recycle neurons to learn new things and forget old ones.
If you wanted to go even further, you could build a quantum computer to store the data about the states of every subatomic particle in a person's body. Given the right technology, you might even be able to emulate a complete human in such a way.

(On that note, those of you who haven't watched ZegaPain should go do so. It's a damn good show.)
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Old 2009-03-20, 11:40   Link #1906
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Quote:
Originally Posted by SaintessHeart View Post
Must.......resist..........the.........moe........ ..
resistance is futile!
are you going to make maidroid imoko your 3rd waifu?

Quote:
Originally Posted by SaintessHeart View Post
It is good to be able to live and learn forever
i'm not really a fan of learning new things all the time. it take away all the other things i like to do.
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Old 2009-03-20, 11:51   Link #1907
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Cat Megex View Post
If you wanted to go even further, you could build a quantum computer to store the data about the states of every subatomic particle in a person's body. Given the right technology, you might even be able to emulate a complete human in such a way.

(On that note, those of you who haven't watched ZegaPain should go do so. It's a damn good show.)
Yea, if you can map the brain, you can essentially map everything of the human body, down to genes and DNA. Quantum technology will allow you to do that and more. Quantum tech can even produce data entities.

Zegapain is indeed quite good, and 'Sunrise Experts' don't know anything about it.

@Imouto Maidoroid, remember she is not a loli.

EDIT: How come the forum stopped moving?

I was enjoying the relatively serious posts lol
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Last edited by C.A.; 2009-03-20 at 12:05.
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Old 2009-03-20, 13:20   Link #1908
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Sorry I decided to take an emotional rollercoaster by watching both seasons of Clannad in one go up to 23. That is one hell of a trip.

I like learning new stuff, but I am starting to slow down of late and started asking the more dangerous questions I have never asked before, like those that do not have a fixed answer, or even an answer at all. If this is the path to enlightenment, my recent insomnia might be foreboding a long rest I will have in the near future.

I have to resist claiming Imoto, otherwise my 2nd waifu might get a training buddy.

Actually mapping the brain is a tediously difficult task, assuming that we have 100 billion brain cells (10^11), the total number of paths mapped would be

([10^11 x 10%]! x [<10^11-1> x 10%]!......... x 2! x 1!)

assuming we use 10% of our brain cells at max. I refuse to calculate the answer because it would be somewhere close to infinity, even if it is 10%.

Never underestimate the human brain. It is not that we are just physically weak to use it at its max constantly, we wouldn't be able to find a way to fully maximise the total power of our brain cells because of our lack of total intelligence and wisdom.

EDIT : Note my less random and more concise English in the 2nd paragraph. There is something seriously wrong with me.
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Most of all, you have to be disciplined and you have to save, even if you hate our current financial system. Because if you don't save, then you're guaranteed to end up with nothing.
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Old 2009-03-20, 21:14   Link #1909
qmeister
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Quote:
Originally Posted by SaintessHeart View Post
assuming we use 10% of our brain cells at max. I refuse to calculate the answer because it would be somewhere close to infinity, even if it is 10%.
I don't have much to add, just that any real number, no matter how large, does not come near the set of infinities. Infinities exist in a set outside the constraints we usually allow in mathematics.

Uh, that's all I have to add, really, it's been a long day and I thank all participants for the discussion on physics. It's been quite educational. Now if only my proper physics lectures were this interesting.
^_^
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Old 2009-03-21, 02:00   Link #1910
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Originally Posted by qmeister View Post
I don't have much to add, just that any real number, no matter how large, does not come near the set of infinities. Infinities exist in a set outside the constraints we usually allow in mathematics.

Uh, that's all I have to add, really, it's been a long day and I thank all participants for the discussion on physics. It's been quite educational. Now if only my proper physics lectures were this interesting.
^_^
Actually infinity refers to anything that has a ridiculously large physical value, in general academic terms something that is outside the range of 10^99.

Physics lectures are never interesting. The ones I have in high school are so boring that I drop dead regularly in class, but of all the subjects, I find physics the most interesting.
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Most of all, you have to be disciplined and you have to save, even if you hate our current financial system. Because if you don't save, then you're guaranteed to end up with nothing.
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Old 2009-03-21, 08:22   Link #1911
qmeister
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Quote:
Originally Posted by SaintessHeart View Post
Actually infinity refers to anything that has a ridiculously large physical value, in general academic terms something that is outside the range of 10^99.

Physics lectures are never interesting. The ones I have in high school are so boring that I drop dead regularly in class, but of all the subjects, I find physics the most interesting.
I was thinking about mathematical infinity, specifically what is meant when we talk about an uncountable set as compared to a countable set.

I don't find all physics lectures tedious, though I do think that in many cases, the mathematics involved detract from the enjoyment of the concepts introduced.
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Old 2009-03-21, 10:57   Link #1912
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Quote:
Originally Posted by qmeister View Post
I was thinking about mathematical infinity, specifically what is meant when we talk about an uncountable set as compared to a countable set.

I don't find all physics lectures tedious, though I do think that in many cases, the mathematics involved detract from the enjoyment of the concepts introduced.
Oh okay. I missed the idea of countable and uncountable. Shit my brain must have been fried.

Yes. I HATED MATH, but somehow it is the math that gives some plausibility to unthinkable concepts, like the Chaos Theory, the fourth dimension of time and the Copenhagen Interpretation in quantum physics.

Since Honoka looks like a Nekomimi, we shall use her as a substitute for the cat in the Copenhagen Interpretation. Suppose we put her and Sakura in the same small room, the effects observed and the plausibility of the outcomes (Honoka gets yuri-ed over by Sakura, or not) can be determined, but we cannot determine what WILL happen. That is where stats keep into to calculate probability base on primary actions of the two.
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Most of all, you have to be disciplined and you have to save, even if you hate our current financial system. Because if you don't save, then you're guaranteed to end up with nothing.
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Old 2009-03-21, 16:10   Link #1913
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Now we will extend the above scenario to Schrodinger's Honoka. We put Honoka in a box, then we have Sakura placed in a cage inside the box. Depending on whether a radioactive isotope decays or not, the door of the cage will or will not open, and hence whether Honoka gets yuri-ed.

Before we use Leopard's Soul Shout to blast the box open and rescue Honoka (who will probably be running out of air even if she doesn't get yuri-ed), we cannot know whether Honoka has been yuri-ed.

However, due to the fact that Honoka and Sakura are both conscious beings, they instantaneously collapse the wavefunction of the system, therefore the above scenario is moot.

Hence SaintessHeart's original experiment should be verified.

I love coming up with junk science. ^_^
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Old 2009-03-21, 16:21   Link #1914
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wtf?....

how could a "below-average seriousness" show gotten so serious!
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Old 2009-03-22, 10:15   Link #1915
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Hello guys so what did i missed?

sorry if i have been well a lurker latelt. its just that today was the final day of my finals week and well it took my whole week trying to at least get decent grades.
so anyway what did i missed?
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Old 2009-03-22, 11:04   Link #1916
qmeister
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Hello guys so what did i missed?

sorry if i have been well a lurker latelt. its just that today was the final day of my finals week and well it took my whole week trying to at least get decent grades.
so anyway what did i missed?
A bunch of random physics and maths discussion between SaintessHeart and I.

X-ref the Copenhonoka Interpretation and Schrodinger's Nekomimi.
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Old 2009-03-22, 12:26   Link #1917
C.A.
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I seriously love your Schrodinger's Nekomimi lol, but I can't give you cookies yet.

And I have no idea what SaintessHeart is talking about most of the time, even in the mecha thread. I don't know if he's seriously making a point or not, or if he actually understands what he's talking about lol

Anyway watching Gundam 24 suddenly makes me wonder if the Brains actually carry consciousness of someone who once had a human body.
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Old 2009-03-22, 12:30   Link #1918
qmeister
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^ Haha, thanks a lot.

Most of what SH says is quite true, from my less-than-perfect knowledge, though the way he jumps through the different fields is a bit disorienting.

I've been wanting to give you cookies for a couple of things on other threads, but I can't find enough people to give cookies to in between... :P
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Old 2009-03-22, 13:06   Link #1919
SaintessHeart
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Originally Posted by C.A. View Post
I seriously love your Schrodinger's Nekomimi lol, but I can't give you cookies yet.

And I have no idea what SaintessHeart is talking about most of the time, even in the mecha thread. I don't know if he's seriously making a point or not, or if he actually understands what he's talking about lol

Anyway watching Gundam 24 suddenly makes me wonder if the Brains actually carry consciousness of someone who once had a human body.
Told you. Most people can't understand me when I attempt to explain things in context and detail by elaborating, sometimes so much information and detail is chunked together that nothing looks simple anymore. One thing I can say is that when you study the sciences deep enough, everything makes sense ONLY TO YOU, lines thin, and nothing seems real and true anymore.

Eventually you will go mad, or spout "nonsense". I blame Sakura for all these.

Regarding the part of G00 24, I believe that actually it is possible to download consciousness from a human mind into an artificial one by mapping the memory engrams (every possible neural link throughout the head not reaching the cerebellum), turning them into algorithms then sending into the machine. Who knows if your memory actually fills less than 100 pages of a PDF document?

Qmeister's Schroedinger's Nekomimi* is epic. It should be counted as an anime-fan's version of determining the Uncertainty Principle.

* - IT IS ONLY A THOUGHT EXPERIMENT, NOT A PRACTICAL ONE. Using my waifu as a test subject is just plain cruel.
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Old 2009-03-22, 13:07   Link #1920
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^then who's a suitable subject for the experiment then?
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