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Old 2009-03-22, 23:52   Link #3021
Nosauz
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Join Date: Feb 2009
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well when you have to fund for some of the most expensive in demand consumables being a tank comes to be a bitch, not even to mention our tanking specific enchants are just rediculously priced. so gold becomes required and without gold you've gotta farm all that shiat, and really minmaxing a character for raids is just a pain in the ass. Also as a hardcore raider, or at least an intense raider I constantly drop profession and reskill them up depending on whats needed. Like engineering was good until ulduar hits, and once it hits if I do come back I'll have to drop it for JC since its deminished value will no longer max my character, also as a tank you die a freaking lot so refreshing those damn consumables is just a pain.
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Old 2009-03-23, 00:34   Link #3022
Jazzrat
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If you are inclined to trading, the AH is still a good place to make money
I m lvling a rogue with herbalism/skinning currently to cash in on the herb price inflation.
It's quite usual to find someone putting up herbs way below market price on AH, all i do is purchase and resell them.

It's risky but also very easy.

JC/BS is imo, the best combination for min/maxing though JCing can be bitch to power lvl at times
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Old 2009-03-23, 00:48   Link #3023
Ithekro
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I've found that dailies in some areas can net you quite a lot of BoE items which if you don't have to shard, can get you some gold on the AH from people that do need to shard. (I think I sell they pretty cheap, but I've not checked what their prices should be...I usually double whatever the starting bid is...or if it is an Outland item, cut the starting in half and then put the buy out at just a little over the original starting bid price...Outland BoE items don't sell for what they use to..maybe 4-8 gold a piece for any level 61-68 item, save for weapons when can go for 12 gold. Anything more than that usually doesn't even get a bid, even rare Outland items only got for maybe 30% more now.)

I just look at the gold as a way to reach a goal. After I have the goal, I don't need the gold. (getting rep is generally a goal as well, so the bonus of gold helps) Of course I spent time at 70 at the end of TBC getting enough gold to get the epic flying skill and then when WTLK came out my goal was the engineering bike mount...needing at least 13,000 gold due to mats and skill, plus a huge amount of rep to get it at 80. It took a bit, but it was possible. (Mount wasn't that great at first but they fixed it so that it really doesn't take falling damage (it did at first, just "you" didn't)...I use it in Stormwind to race to the boat by taking the direct route. Also I sometimes use it in other places for fun...the minefield in the Storm Peaks can be an interesting stunting ground for a bike.
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Last edited by Ithekro; 2009-03-23 at 01:13.
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Old 2009-03-23, 01:41   Link #3024
Jazzrat
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That's how economy works

Price inflation occurs ingame when there's a significant influx of gold on the server (i.e CGF). It might be quite intimidating for the low level people at first but i think that's the best time for them to pick up gathering and fund their way through the game just by collecting low level materials for the powerleveler who are willing afford high prices.

The cost of training doesn't change, mounts still cost the same and so is most basic consumeable (arrows, poison, reagents, repair fee). It's only the player products that increases in price.

You're not taking money from everyone, just the really rich folks who are willing to splurge on the AH.
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Old 2009-03-23, 01:55   Link #3025
Clarste
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Jazzrat View Post
You're not taking money from everyone, just the really rich folks who are willing to splurge on the AH.
I deleted the post that you were responding to, because it ended up being a rant against a pet peeve of mine rather than a real response, but this is false. The rich people are rich because they're smart with money, ie: they're cheap and/or work the AH. The people you're taking money from are the impatient people who always spend all their money on the first thing they see because they don't want to bother thinking about it (and most people don't play this game to think about economics). These people are perpetually broke. I should know, since I'm one of them. By working the AH, you are the rich person, and you're stealing from the poor.

Quote:
Price inflation occurs ingame when there's a significant influx of gold on the server (i.e CGF). It might be quite intimidating for the low level people at first but i think that's the best time for them to pick up gathering and fund their way through the game just by collecting low level materials for the powerleveler who are willing afford high prices.

The cost of training doesn't change, mounts still cost the same and so is most basic consumeable (arrows, poison, reagents, repair fee). It's only the player products that increases in price.
Oh, and the relevant costs are the prices of mats, particularly herbs and enchanting materials, which are needed by people wanting to improve their characters. These have been artificially inflated by quite a lot, for no particular reason, especially since as you say the prices of repairs and whatnot stay the same, so no one actually needs the money they earn from inflating prices. A lot of people like to horde money (my guild leader is one) which keeps it out of circulation. Forcing new players to pick gathering professions is bad thing, and a symptom of the larger economic problems. It's not horrible, but it's not ideal either.
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Old 2009-03-23, 01:56   Link #3026
Keroko
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That being said, have there been any changes in Enchanting? More specifically, can I still disenchant level 80 items with level 1 Enchanting? I'm rhinking of dropping skinning and picking up Enchanting as a secondary moneymaker...
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Old 2009-03-23, 01:58   Link #3027
Clarste
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Keroko View Post
That being said, have there been any changes in Enchanting? More specifically, can I still disenchant level 80 items with level 1 Enchanting? I'm rhinking of dropping skinning and picking up Enchanting as a secondary moneymaker...
No you can't; they changed that back in BC. You need 375 enchanting or something to DE level 80 items. It's still a moneymaker, but it's an investment. A lot of people like to pay enchanters to DE stuff for them rather than level enchanting.
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Old 2009-03-23, 02:09   Link #3028
Keroko
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I'll keep skinning then. Thanks.
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Old 2009-03-23, 06:02   Link #3029
Last Sinner
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From my caluclations, I spent about 20k levelling Tailoring and 30k levelling Enchanting on my main. Alchemy on my Druid cost me 5-6k over the 3 versions. I spent 3k+ recently levelling Leatherworking to 410 on my Hunter. I've spent 2-3k leveling Jewelcrafting on my Shaman to 385. I bought the Cenarion Hippogryph on my Druid. Mage has Epic flying, Druid has Swift Flight Form. Recently bought a Brown Armored Bear on the Mage, also spent up fairly big to get the 50 pets achievement. I don't even want to know how much I've paid for those permanently inflated prices for Gems every time I switch gear or respec.

I'm sitting on a bit above 1k at present. I could farm more, but time and money prevent me from doing so. And that 1k will vanish the instant dual specs come live.
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Old 2009-03-23, 06:13   Link #3030
Keroko
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I never have the motivation to do dailies... doing a quest to level is one thing, doing it for reputation is still a doable goal... doing a quest repeatedly for hundreds of times just for the monies is too mentally exhausting.
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Old 2009-03-23, 07:45   Link #3031
Nosauz
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Keroko View Post
I never have the motivation to do dailies... doing a quest to level is one thing, doing it for reputation is still a doable goal... doing a quest repeatedly for hundreds of times just for the monies is too mentally exhausting.
Really? What did you do in TBC? I remember the first thing I did was clear all the quests in outlands and the only quests left to do were dailies or farming rep for shitty factions like the Mahgar... Also the note on gold, its important I did play the AH at the beginning of Wotlk since I pretty much turned titansteel into 500g a pop but AH price returns are never as good as they could be because theres always some douche who will undercut your price and in the end shrink your profit margins.
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Old 2009-03-23, 07:51   Link #3032
Keroko
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Originally Posted by Nosauz View Post
Really? What did you do in TBC?
Leveling?

I probably should tell you that I am a very slow leveler. Combine that with my tendency to jump between alts and by back luck that a lot of my friends are on different servers...

Well, let's just say that my Death Knight was my first character that had it's XP bar disappear.
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Old 2009-03-23, 08:03   Link #3033
Jazzrat
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Clarste View Post
The rich people are rich because they're smart with money, ie: they're cheap and/or work the AH. The people you're taking money from are the impatient people who always spend all their money on the first thing they see because they don't want to bother thinking about it (and most people don't play this game to think about economics). These people are perpetually broke. I should know, since I'm one of them. By working the AH, you are the rich person, and you're stealing from the poor....
Well i would certainly blame those poor people for being impulsive on their purchase . All RPGs have a basic economy built into it. You don't spend your last penny on a +1 sword when you know you ll be getting a +2 sword for free next day.

I know what you mean but this is a social game as much as a RPG game. Social influences gets amplified by the protection of Internet anonymity.

Unless Blizzard start replacing AH with vendoring machines, people will just have to wise up and balance their spending
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Last edited by Jazzrat; 2009-03-23 at 08:24.
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Old 2009-03-23, 08:24   Link #3034
Nosauz
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Keroko View Post
Leveling?

I probably should tell you that I am a very slow leveler. Combine that with my tendency to jump between alts and by back luck that a lot of my friends are on different servers...

Well, let's just say that my Death Knight was my first character that had it's XP bar disappear.
AHHHH, that explains it, well in TBC, you need an extra alt to do the damn dailies because the limit had been set at 10 so gold was in short supply unless you played the AH, and as many savvy players at the time just ended up learning to play the AH but if you had alts, its was an easy way to net 200-300 gold depending on random loot drops also not to mention daily fishing and cooking quests enabling good consumables tahts could be auctioned off. And if you were at 70 for TBC in the early days... damn did it get boring real quick real fast. Oustside of raiding, and not until SWP was pretty much cleared, there were rarely any pugs that ventured into Karazhan let alone gruuls and magtheridon. Anyway dailies for those that spent a lot of time level capped really was one of the best ways to make money, still many have long since found them to be repetive and boring much as yourself, but in those days... thats all we had. Well of course pvp, but really thats just another gold sink.
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Old 2009-03-23, 16:47   Link #3035
Clarste
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Jazzrat View Post
Well i would certainly blame those poor people for being impulsive on their purchase . All RPGs have a basic economy built into it. You don't spend your last penny on a +1 sword when you know you ll be getting a +2 sword for free next day.

I know what you mean but this is a social game as much as a RPG game. Social influences gets amplified by the protection of Internet anonymity.

Unless Blizzard start replacing AH with vendoring machines, people will just have to wise up and balance their spending
It's not about +1 swords (equipment), it's about herbs and enchanting mats (consumables). If I need Icethorn, I'll go to the AH and buy the cheapest stack of Icethorn. What I will not do is keep checking back every hour to see if someone put up a cheaper stack of Icethorn, nor will I memorize the standard price of Icethorn and only buy when it's at or below that.

What you're doing is taking that cheapest stack and making it more expensive. You are stealing money from me, since apparently the person who farmed that Icethorn didn't think it was worth that much. Both the buyer and the seller agreed on a lower price, but you decided to come in as an unnecessary middleman and steal from the buyer. (The seller doesn't really care because they can't really tell who bought it). The free market was doing its beautiful thing of changing prices to match supply and demand, and you stepped in and killed it. You killed the free market. By stealing from the poor.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Nosauz View Post
AHHHH, that explains it, well in TBC, you need an extra alt to do the damn dailies because the limit had been set at 10 so gold was in short supply unless you played the AH, and as many savvy players at the time just ended up learning to play the AH but if you had alts, its was an easy way to net 200-300 gold depending on random loot drops also not to mention daily fishing and cooking quests enabling good consumables tahts could be auctioned off. And if you were at 70 for TBC in the early days... damn did it get boring real quick real fast. Oustside of raiding, and not until SWP was pretty much cleared, there were rarely any pugs that ventured into Karazhan let alone gruuls and magtheridon. Anyway dailies for those that spent a lot of time level capped really was one of the best ways to make money, still many have long since found them to be repetive and boring much as yourself, but in those days... thats all we had. Well of course pvp, but really thats just another gold sink.
Playing the AH does not create money. Also, most people I know do not play the game for the sake of playing. When I have nothing to do, I don't end up doing the most boring thing available, I log off and do something else.
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Old 2009-03-23, 17:20   Link #3036
Keroko
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Clarste View Post
What you're doing is taking that cheapest stack and making it more expensive. You are stealing money from me, since apparently the person who farmed that Icethorn didn't think it was worth that much. Both the buyer and the seller agreed on a lower price, but you decided to come in as an unnecessary middleman and steal from the buyer. (The seller doesn't really care because they can't really tell who bought it). The free market was doing its beautiful thing of changing prices to match supply and demand, and you stepped in and killed it. You killed the free market. By stealing from the poor.
.... You do realize that these are the very basics upon which trade works, right? Buy low, sell high is the most basic of basic principle of trade.

It's not stealing and he is not an 'unnecessary middleman' He is the buyer, who buys from the seller. The only way he could steal from you is if an agreement of trade had already been reached. It hadn't, therefore the trade is fair and thus he has stolen nothing.

In fact, with a similar twist of logic I can claim that you are stealing from him. What are you going to do with those Icethorns? You'll turn them into pots which you'll consume, and chances are you'll get next to nothing in return. Jazz, however, makes his money from these items. By buying these items before him, you are effectively robbing him of all chances of making money.

Trade is never an easy thing.

Personally, I love playing the Auction House like this, and consequently loathe the idiots who keep undercutting. They don't seem to realize that if they blindly keep undercutting one another, they'll only earth a tenth of what they could earn. When I don't have the capital yet, I tend to go for the average price, hoping that the cheaper stacks will sell out quickly so mine get their turn. Sometimes it pays of, sometimes it doesn't.

I tend to get rich very fast as long as I have gathering professions. Gather the resources, put them on the AH, build capital, buy low and sell high, keep repeating the gathering/auctioning and buying/selling and control the market.

That's why arguably my biggest mistake ever was choosing to level Alchemy with my Death Knight. *sigh* I should have sold those herbs...
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Old 2009-03-23, 17:54   Link #3037
Clarste
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Originally Posted by Keroko View Post
.... You do realize that these are the very basics upon which trade works, right? Buy low, sell high is the most basic of basic principle of trade.

It's not stealing and he is not an 'unnecessary middleman' He is the buyer, who buys from the seller. The only way he could steal from you is if an agreement of trade had already been reached. It hadn't, therefore the trade is fair and thus he has stolen nothing.

In fact, with a similar twist of logic I can claim that you are stealing from him. What are you going to do with those Icethorns? You'll turn them into pots which you'll consume, and chances are you'll get next to nothing in return. Jazz, however, makes his money from these items. By buying these items before him, you are effectively robbing him of all chances of making money.

Trade is never an easy thing.

Personally, I love playing the Auction House like this, and consequently loathe the idiots who keep undercutting. They don't seem to realize that if they blindly keep undercutting one another, they'll only earth a tenth of what they could earn. When I don't have the capital yet, I tend to go for the average price, hoping that the cheaper stacks will sell out quickly so mine get their turn. Sometimes it pays of, sometimes it doesn't.

I tend to get rich very fast as long as I have gathering professions. Gather the resources, put them on the AH, build capital, buy low and sell high, keep repeating the gathering/auctioning and buying/selling and control the market.

That's why arguably my biggest mistake ever was choosing to level Alchemy with my Death Knight. *sigh* I should have sold those herbs...
...you do realize that we're also the buyers, right? By keeping prices lower, I spend less when I turn around to buy things. If we all kept the prices low, we could all buy things, and it ends up being exactly the same except more newbie friendly, and then you wouldn't have to regret training alchemy. Win-win. And money has no value whatsoever other than what you can buy with it. While raising prices gives you tons of money, it also lowers the value of your own money. You create nothing, and end up where you started.

Also, why do you loathe undercutters? You rely on them to play the AH. If no one undercut anyone, no one could make money like that (especially due to the AH cut). Making money off the AH is a zero sum game: some people need to lose in order for other people to win. There's nothing wrong with that, I just hate the attitude of superiority the winners have, as if by educating the masses we could all be winners and that the losers must be stupid. That's blatantly false: playing the AH only works because you're taking advantage of people who don't care about saving up video game money. I'd be happy if people acknowledged this, but most people who play the AH don't.

Edit: Oh, and historically, traders provide a service. They move goods from where they're produced to where they're consumed. The money they make is the fee for that service. The WoW AH already provides this service. People who buy from the AH and then resell on the very same AH are basically scalpers. It's a legitimate way of making money, but I wouldn't be proud of it.
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Old 2009-03-23, 18:23   Link #3038
Ithekro
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Sounds like a problem of conflicting economic theories.
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Last edited by Ithekro; 2009-03-23 at 19:22.
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Old 2009-03-23, 18:54   Link #3039
Keroko
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^ Pretty much.

I realize that you are also buyers, I just showed what things looked like from the opposite side.

And no, I don't live of undercutters. I'm a gatherer (or rather, my Shaman is), my main profit is selling what I gather. Undercutters are an annoyance that keep interfering with my profits. Undercutters are only profitable when they put their stuff on the AH for ridiculously low prices. (for example, I put up a stack of copper bars for 8 Gold, an undercutter does so for 7 Gold 90 Silver, I could buy it, but the cost and risk are very high, and the profit small) In other words, I only profit of undercutters when they put they put their stuff up for low prices and I happen to wander across them. I always make it a habit to check the AH whenever I'm in town, but I don't watch it like a hawk.

I don't have any professions that need to be fueled by the AH, hence I don't need to buy anything of it. My main costs are repair bills and whatever the vendors have available, which are predictable or stable prices. In other words: inflation does not affect me, rather it only serves me. Low prices on the AH, however, would severely hurt my wallet and actions.

That being said, I do agree that I'm taking advantage of people. That's all part of trade. However, you seem to dramatize the importance of the AH... it's not as if you can't go out and gather the Icethorn yourself. You'd be hurting the AH merchants and get Icethorn without having to pay a copper. Double win for you, gatherers and AH traders lose.

And I do disagree on that last statement... sure, there is a ring of truth in that merchants bought products where they were produced and sold them where they were consumed, but why did they do that? Not because they provided a service, but because they knew that the people in that far away town would pay a mighty piece for the products they carried. And even in the past it was hardly uncommon for a merchant to buy an item for a low price and sell it for a higher price two streets away.

Profit, profit, profit. It is, has been, and will always be the centerpiece of trade.
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Old 2009-03-23, 19:27   Link #3040
Last Sinner
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Undercutter for life and proud of it. :P
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