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Old 2008-12-27, 00:46   Link #81
KholdStare
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You see this "gray area" becomes more gray every time we discuss spoilers. A few months ago we were discussing against people putting most things in spoiler tags and now I'm sort of with the idea that "when in doubt, put it in spoilers or else the mods will come after you with angry fists." What I'm trying to say is, I'm slowly reverting back to my old ways of "you can never be too cautious" and thus putting most of what I say into spoiler tags. When will this end?
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Old 2008-12-27, 01:23   Link #82
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Quote:
Originally Posted by KholdStare View Post
You see this "gray area" becomes more gray every time we discuss spoilers. A few months ago we were discussing against people putting most things in spoiler tags and now I'm sort of with the idea that "when in doubt, put it in spoilers or else the mods will come after you with angry fists." What I'm trying to say is, I'm slowly reverting back to my old ways of "you can never be too cautious" and thus putting most of what I say into spoiler tags. When will this end?
Well, signatures are a different issue than threads. The reason I referred to a "grey area" there is because whether something is a spoiler depends on the thread you're posting in.

If you see a moderator impose an infraction in contradiction to the spoiler policy or of the thread-specific rules, it should be reported to an admin. The mods will only come at you with an angry fist if you: a) post source material spoilers in an adaptation thread, b) give away a major future event, c) persist in discussing off-topic issues, and so on. I haven't noticed an increase in "false spoiler" infractions, but I haven't been watching for it either. Now that you mention it, I will keep my eyes open for it.

The other thing is, not all moderators/admins are familiar with every series. If someone reports a post as a spoiler (using "report post"), a mod/admin who isn't sure may choose to delete it to be on the safe side. But those are the cases where people should write back and say "no, actually, that wasn't a spoiler".

But anyway, that sounded more like a rant than constructive criticism on your part. The policy is never going to "end" so long as people don't want to be spoiled. If it's applied inconsistently, though, that should be fixed and end as soon as people report the specific cases. Sometimes people can be overly-aggressive in trying to protect people from getting spoiled.
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Old 2008-12-27, 01:34   Link #83
KholdStare
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Well it could be count as a rant since I best describe it as an annoyed observation, but maybe I should have made myself more clear. But then again, I'm only speaking in theory. I don't know if people have been receiving false spoiler infractions, but I sure haven't because I put anything that I doubt in spoiler tags. When I talk about ending things, I was just referring to how the spoiler policy, from my point of view, seems to sway every few months. I guess in a way I was trying to give advice, which is to put whatever you doubt in spoiler tags, unless that somehow becomes discouraged too.
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Old 2008-12-27, 01:47   Link #84
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Quote:
Originally Posted by KholdStare View Post
Well it could be count as a rant since I best describe it as an annoyed observation, but maybe I should have made myself more clear. But then again, I'm only speaking in theory. I don't know if people have been receiving false spoiler infractions, but I sure haven't because I put anything that I doubt in spoiler tags. When I talk about ending things, I was just referring to how the spoiler policy, from my point of view, seems to sway every few months. I guess in a way I was trying to give advice, which is to put whatever you doubt in spoiler tags, unless that somehow becomes discouraged too.
Well, the real problem is this. Sometimes you'll go through a thread and people are discussing minor spoiler issues (like latest raws, source comparisons, etc.) and then all of a sudden, out of nowhere, someone will post some massive future event spoiler under spoiler tags thinking they're doing the right thing ("well, it's a spoiler, so it's under spoiler tags, right?"). That's the reason some people are strongly against the over-use of spoiler tags, and I sort of agree with that. Really, though, the solution to this issue is making sure your spoiler tags are very clearly labeled. Plus, people familiar with the source material need to remember that, no matter how tempting, you're not doing people any favours by giving major future plot points away or answering their hypothetical questions.

In the end, the main thing is to be considerate of others. If everyone just did that, the policy wouldn't need enforcement.
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Old 2008-12-27, 05:16   Link #85
ganbaru
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Quote:
Originally Posted by relentlessflame View Post
Well, I suppose it could be... Would reading that quote give away a key plot point? Is it from the latest raws or further ahead than the average English-speaker is expected to be in the product? Like I said, if it couldn't be posted in a normal thread without spoiler tags, then it shouldn't be used in signatures either, but I suppose there some "grey area" there too. If you're not sure, maybe you could PM a mod you see posting in the threads for that series and ask them what they think.
I was thinking about something specific: a quote from a book for a signature.
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Old 2008-12-27, 05:37   Link #86
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Ganbaru you are not asking for clarification on a spoiler what you are asking is "if I use this will you censor it?". Just use the quote and if anyone is bothered then it will be reported/removed.
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Old 2008-12-27, 05:59   Link #87
ganbaru
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Originally Posted by Cats View Post
Ganbaru you are not asking for clarification on a spoiler what you are asking is "if I use this will you censor it?". Just use the quote and if anyone is bothered then it will be reported/removed.
It's true than I want to know if they would censor it, butI think it could be happening ( the use of a quote) on other situation like on the treads talking about the novel ( the Toradora, Haruhi Suzumiya or To aru majutsu no Index sub-forum for example have such tread). So I hoped than a clear explanation should be done.
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Old 2008-12-27, 13:55   Link #88
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Quote:
Originally Posted by ganbaru View Post
It's true than I want to know if they would censor it, butI think it could be happening ( the use of a quote) on other situation like on the treads talking about the novel ( the Toradora, Haruhi Suzumiya or To aru majutsu no Index sub-forum for example have such tread). So I hoped than a clear explanation should be done.
Oh, if it's just a quote from a book in general that isn't a spoiler for anything, then there's absolutely no problem as long as the quote is either in English or includes an English translation. Otherwise, if it's from a novel for an anime, and the quote covers material not yet shown in the anime, then it would depend on the quote.
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Old 2009-02-03, 14:38   Link #89
Proto
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I see that in character dedicated threads spoilers are allowed, however is that allowance restricted to spoilers related to the character in question, to the series in question, or there are not restrictions as to what spoilers can be posted?
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Old 2009-03-23, 13:54   Link #90
Sinfully Naomi
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Why so strict about spoilers?

I'm fairly neand I don't know if this question was already asked, or not. But why are the mods so strict about the posting of spoilers? I mean, if it's in a spoiler tag, shouldn't it be okay? A memebr shouldn't complain about it if they looked at the spoiler upon thei own will. So can someone please explain to me why it's extreme?
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Old 2009-03-23, 14:17   Link #91
SeedFreedom
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Unfortunately while i agree with you, too many people have complaint about different issues about spoilers. Just about every argument has already been mentioned here

Some that i remember are that some people dont label their spoilers properly, spoilers are also used to hide images, and there are threads designed for spoilers.
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Old 2009-03-23, 22:11   Link #92
Daniel E.
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Looks at CP.......

Aaaayy, sorry for deleting my comment!

Beyond the example given, it was pretty similar to what I have said before, so I though there was no need to repeat it in the same thread.

Thanks for the comment regardless!
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Old 2009-03-24, 02:00   Link #93
Vexx
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Simply putting it in a spoiler tag is insufficient... basically, if only many people weren't bleeding idiots about how they label their spoiler tags - a lot of unnecessary pain could be avoided.

Spoiler for oh my, in the manga!:


An anti-example... 8P
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Old 2009-03-24, 02:17   Link #94
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Vexx View Post
Simply putting it in a spoiler tag is insufficient... basically, if only many people weren't bleeding idiots about how they label their spoiler tags - a lot of unnecessary pain could be avoided.
Amen to this. One of the main reasons we have such a "harsh" spoiler tag policy is because people, in general, seem to really really suck at labeling. I feel like we're lucky if we get something like Vexx's example (at least it says something about "manga" there...)

The issue is that there are actually multiple degrees of severity when it comes to spoilers, but a policy that tries to get people to "judge how bad it is" is never going to work, because everyone has different opinions. If everyone would label their spoilers carefully so that people could understand the severity of the spoiler before they clicked the button, that would help, but as was said above, people don't seem to understand how to label well either. So, instead, we had to simplify it to what basically amounts to a "checklist" of factors that determines if something is or isn't okay based on the concept of "on-topic". It takes the ambiguity out of the equation (as much as possible) and redirects people who want to discuss source material to the threads where it's safe. I don't think that anyone pretends it's an ideal arrangement that works well in every situation, but it seems to generally keep things orderly.
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Old 2009-03-24, 05:41   Link #95
felix
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I do not see the problem, Vexx's title in the example is perfectly clear. What exactly would be the proper label in that case then? You all do not seem to realise that being spoiled is also in a large part your fault, even when the title is not clear the post content before it usually is.

"Oh I am in a series thread! Look a spoiler, and some wierd talk before it... it must be a wallpaper!", who's fault is it here, obviously not yours since "some people use it for images", you just taught it was a image since "it was not properly labeled", like the context and fact it has "Spoiler" writen on it is not enough, even though that was the natural order of things.

Why not re-think the spoiler tag, since it needing constant fixing (as well as aparently not being a spoiler unless labeled) is obviously not a acceptable solution. I saw it done on other boards where they do no collapse the content, like that you can always take a guess at what they are about to say and nobody will bother to use it as a toggle-hide tag anymore. This would take a minor tweak to the current system, and would save us from a lot of drama; you can also remove the non-label version from the system if you do not want un-labeled spoilers.

From how Flame phrased it: "If everyone would label their spoilers carefully so that people could understand the severity of the spoiler before they clicked the button, that would help", I have to wonder if there is any interest in fixing it, since it sounds to me like a "Spoiler" tag has become a toy you have to click; which we somehow need to threaten you with the label not to click; am I the only one who sees a problem here.


I agree with the argument on how a spoiler discussion might eventually lead to someone posting with out spoiler tags (I believe Daniel mentioned it in his deleted post); but this latest "its not my fault, I just clicked it" is complete nonsense.
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Old 2009-03-24, 08:03   Link #96
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But people put spoilers like:

Spoiler for For Sakura:


If people took the time to specify then maybe we would be in a different boat here. -.-

And still, maybe you(meaning whomever looks at the spoiler tags, or whatever) should exercise some self-control. It's not that hard, even if there is a hint of something major that may be spoiled you shouldn't look. You can't blame the spoiler tag on your own curiousity.

People tend to not think when they click, they just become maniacs on the mouse and then want to whine and complain about it later on. Do people even think of reprecusions anymore, is what I wonder, because if they did then this wouldn't be the case right now. The only thing I cold think of would be for people to properly label their spoilers. Then again, only about 3% of the forum members even look here, so there's really no point if no one will read about it, sadly. =/
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Old 2009-03-24, 11:53   Link #97
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Cats View Post
"Oh I am in a series thread! Look a spoiler, and some wierd talk before it... it must be a wallpaper!", who's fault is it here, obviously not yours since "some people use it for images", you just taught it was a image since "it was not properly labeled", like the context and fact it has "Spoiler" writen on it is not enough, even though that was the natural order of things.
You completely missed entirely the point of what I was saying, thus proving that people don't understand the subtlety of varying degrees of severity in spoilers, and validating the standing policy's approach. Good job!

Quote:
Originally Posted by Cats View Post
Why not re-think the spoiler tag, since it needing constant fixing (as well as aparently not being a spoiler unless labeled) is obviously not a acceptable solution. I saw it done on other boards where they do no collapse the content, like that you can always take a guess at what they are about to say and nobody will bother to use it as a toggle-hide tag anymore. This would take a minor tweak to the current system, and would save us from a lot of drama; you can also remove the non-label version from the system if you do not want un-labeled spoilers.
No, I personally think the current implementation is the best spoiler system I've seen on any forum I've visited, as long as people use it correctly. What would "save us from a lot of drama" is if people would follow the stated rules and label their spoiler tags correctly. There may be other ways of doing it, but the current solution is still completely acceptable.
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Old 2009-03-24, 13:19   Link #98
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Sinfully Naomi View Post
And still, maybe you(meaning whomever looks at the spoiler tags, or whatever) should exercise some self-control. It's not that hard, even if there is a hint of something major that may be spoiled you shouldn't look. You can't blame the spoiler tag on your own curiousity.
I sure can blame the person that replies to your comment without using a tag at all, that's for sure.

In the example I deleted, the ending of a game was discussed in an image thread. They were using spoiler tags at first, then along came someone who didn't think it was such a big deal to use them, and ended up spoiling the whole thing for all that were reading at the time. >_<

Truly, regardless of how much self-control one can have, it matters little if others are going to spread the spoiler all over the thread as part of the conversation.
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Old 2009-03-24, 18:26   Link #99
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I'm opposed to Cats's suggestion that we abolish the push-button drop-down display. In fact I got the admin at AVSForum to implement a similar approach recently by showing him how things work here. I find it a much better solution than alternatives like changing the foreground/background colors of the spoiler text.

That said, perhaps there's a need for another tag, some type of "large content" tag, that could be used to hide graphics or long text blocks. I don't want to create any extra work for NightWish , but I find myself using spoiler tags in those situations because I don't have any other alternative. I do try to identify these cases with relevant subjects like "for length" or "for image size" when asked to state the reason for the spoiler.

(I realize putting images in spoilers doesn't affect the payload size when the page is viewed. I use spoilers for images in places where a large graphic would interfere with the flow of discussion.)
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Old 2009-03-24, 19:32   Link #100
felix
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Actually I was thinking simply changing display:none to visibility:hidden. I do not see reason for more information on what is hidden not to be favored over a estetic junk that seems to have only led to confusion, but oh well.

relentlessflame: I did not say anything about changing the current system; you presumed wrong. Also, someone like me who is among the "bleeding idiots" who "really really suck at labeling" (as you and Vexx put it) may never understand what that "subtlety of varying degrees of severity" refers to (since I'm not a mind reader) and how the labels should be written (since I've only heard your complaints).
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