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Old 2009-03-26, 22:05   Link #1121
golthin
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Originally Posted by t3htr0LL View Post
No I don't think thats the point, just take a look at TTGL
Spoiler for mebbe spoilerish:
but it didn't make the show worse, but when Neeba gets freaking divebombed and is bleeding profusly you'd think he'd have died, and the fact that hes a live in the epilogue is just a complete mind f*ck. Plus the platform his bodies on falls... so jsut from that he should be dead.
ok, we are talking about two different studios. gainax knows how to kill people with a purpose.
gonzo is another thing. If you notice, characters in gonzo's shows have a huge chance of coming back even after they die, as a ghost or ressurection.

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Originally Posted by t3htr0LL View Post
You know what gonzo doesn't really suck at endings. just look at seto no hanyome or Romeo x Juliet, or hell Strike Witches, all those shows ended up pretty well. I just feel showing neeba's sillouette was pretty tacky.
Seto no Hanayome ending=predictable, romeo x Juliet=predictable, strike witches=predictable.
two of them had text book happy endings. romeo x Juliet had a happy ending for all but the two destined to die no matter what, and even so it was an original ending.
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Old 2009-03-26, 22:26   Link #1122
BrokenWingz
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Originally Posted by golthin View Post
ok, we are talking about two different studios. gainax knows how to kill people with a purpose.
gonzo is another thing. If you notice, characters in gonzo's shows have a huge chance of coming back even after they die, as a ghost or ressurection.
o realy?
Like eva death had any meaning and TTLG had the motto of it is cool to die theme going for it. its rather hard to comment on gainax because they don't make much anime these day. Beside from TTLG, Eva and Gunbuster they rarely have hits.

BTW <3 ganiax

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Originally Posted by golthin
Seto no Hanayome ending=predictable, romeo x Juliet=predictable, strike witches=predictable
When you say predictable, do you mean happy end are predictable or the way how the storyboard went from A-Z? Seto no Hanayome ended happy but the step to achieve it is out of this world with one word awesome to describe it. If we use a general statement like happy ends are predictable or sad ends are predictable it can apply to any series.
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Old 2009-03-26, 22:31   Link #1123
Manji Midou
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Originally Posted by Deathkillz View Post
Good in a...
Spoiler:
wait....Kaaya never had feelings for neeba or...did she ever steal him from her...
..................
Oh wait you meant Jil? since when was jil her guy?

you know what irks me about this series...is that fatina never had a chance to interact with neeba after the betrayal...
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Old 2009-03-26, 22:37   Link #1124
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Originally Posted by Manji Midou View Post
wait....Kaaya never had feelings for neeba or...did she ever steal him from her...
..................
Oh wait you meant Jil? since when was jil her guy?

you know what irks me about this series...is that fatina never had a chance to interact with neeba after the betrayal...
Ah your arrogance knows no bounds.

Yeah number two... oh for the fact they were living together despite how bloody thick-headed he is. The slap was probably more for Jil's sake as well.
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Old 2009-03-26, 22:43   Link #1125
NoLongerSane
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I thought the slap that Fantina did on Kayaa was more of a warning than getting even. She pretty much knew that Jil still was thinking of Kayaa and the she slapped Kayaa to knock some sense into her. To me, the slap was more of a "if you betray him again, you will be dealing with me" type of mentality. I was expecting Fatina to give Jil a long kiss to remind him if he is hurt by Kayaa again, she would be there for him.
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Old 2009-03-26, 22:43   Link #1126
golthin
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Ah your arrogance knows no bounds.

Yeah number two... oh for the fact they were living together despite how bloody thick-headed he is. The slap was probably more for Jil's sake as well.
Not just living together, the guy was not working at all. Fatina was supporting him all the time. I wish Fatina had not pushed him to go out that day, they would not have met Ki.
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Old 2009-03-26, 22:47   Link #1127
BrokenWingz
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Originally Posted by NoLongerSane View Post
I thought the slap that Fantina did on Kayaa was more of a warning than getting even. She pretty much knew that Jil still was thinking of Kayaa and the she slapped Kayaa to knock some sense into her. To me, the slap was more of a "if you betray him again, you will be dealing with me" type of mentality. I was expecting Fatina to give Jil a long kiss to remind him if he is hurt by Kayaa again, she would be there for him.
lol, maybe if she stripped naked and sleep with Jil she could claim him in some way........ Maybe Iím watching too much ef.. clearly the superior tactics that work.
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Old 2009-03-26, 22:54   Link #1128
Manji Midou
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Originally Posted by SageGaiGar View Post
Ah your arrogance knows no bounds.

Yeah number two... oh for the fact they were living together despite how bloody thick-headed he is. The slap was probably more for Jil's sake as well.

~GIGGLE~

No arrogance here kind sir, just stating the truth.

Those 6 months that they lived "together"...jil was pretty much a vegetable...so not much romantic development could had been build...and l was proven right.

P.S l can't wait to be poven correct in Regios as well.

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lol, maybe if she stripped naked and sleep with Jil she could claim him in some way........ Maybe I’m watching too much ef.. clearly the superior tactics that work.
Miyako would had won Hiro's heart either way...kei had no chance once Miyako entered the picture....
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Old 2009-03-26, 22:59   Link #1129
t3htr0LL
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Originally Posted by BrokenWingz View Post
lol, maybe if she stripped naked and sleep with Jil she could claim him in some way........ Maybe Iím watching too much ef.. clearly the superior tactics that work.
wow words of truth, eventhough I was rooting for psuedo wincest.
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Old 2009-03-26, 23:55   Link #1130
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Geez why is everyone so over critical about this...

Can't you just watch it as an enjoyable show.

I particularly liked it a bunch because it didn't take itself seriously at all. Which was perfectly apparent in the first episode of the first season.

Who cares about the cookie cutter ending...it actually fit the format of the series...and the finally battle was really cool.

Makes me want to play the old Tower of Druaga on my PSP
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Old 2009-03-27, 00:24   Link #1131
Deathkillz
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Originally Posted by Manji Midou View Post
Those 6 months that they lived "together"...jil was pretty much a vegetable...so not much romantic development could had been build...and l was proven right.
Not exactly since Fatina WAS in love with Jil, up til the point where she slapped Kaaya where she admitted defeat against her. Whether Jil loved her back was another thing but Fatina did have one sided feelings for him (thus making her a tragic heroine ).
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Old 2009-03-27, 00:48   Link #1132
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Not exactly since Fatina WAS in love with Jil, up til the point where she slapped Kaaya where she admitted defeat against her. Whether Jil loved her back was another thing but Fatina did have one sided feelings for him (thus making her a tragic heroine ).
I think he meant that there was not very much romantic development on Jil's side. Fatina needed a purpose and that was to take care of Jil. Jil didn't have a purpose, but he needed someone to cheer him up and pay the bills. they helped each other in those respect. Fatina developed feelings for Jil as MOST women do when they care for man in those kind of situations (women are natural nurturers), but Jil was too busy self pitying himself to notice her.

Too bad that Jil only saw her as a tool to accomplish his goal. she was used by both brothers. I was kind of yelling at Jil when he called her through the window when he was packing in episode 2, I had the feelings that she was going to die if she followed him, but thank goodness she live. that was my only worry, I could not have survive a repeat of the Ahmey incident from the first season. So yes, Fatina was a tragic heroine.
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Old 2009-03-27, 01:25   Link #1133
BrokenWingz
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I think he meant that there was not very much romantic development on Jil's side. Fatina needed a purpose and that was to take care of Jil. Jil didn't have a purpose, but he needed someone to cheer him up and pay the bills. they helped each other in those respect. Fatina developed feelings for Jil as MOST women do when they care for man in those kind of situations (women are natural nurturers), but Jil was too busy self pitying himself to notice her.

Too bad that Jil only saw her as a tool to accomplish his goal. she was used by both brothers. I was kind of yelling at Jil when he called her through the window when he was packing in episode 2, I had the feelings that she was going to die if she followed him, but thank goodness she live. that was my only worry, I could not have survive a repeat of the Ahmey incident from the first season. So yes, Fatina was a tragic heroine.
Think your exaggerating circumstance, how exactly did Jil use Fatina? if I was cynical about this I could certainly say fatina freely allow Jil to use her but that isn't exactly true now is it.

To be 'use' a form of deception has to be established which Jil didn't do, dense and thick headed or stubborn are what his crimes are but certainly he never love the woman which is fine because he said so early on when fatina confess hence he did the right thing from the start nor did he played with her feelings. Itís a one sided love that only fatina can be blame for her action.
Youíve really stretch the truth this time. And while you're at it explained to me how Jil use fatina to accomplished his goal he was going to climb the bloody thing anyway without her and what he did he ask for never was it forceful.
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Old 2009-03-27, 01:58   Link #1134
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What annoyed me most about the Jil x Fatina romance subplot (besides the fact that it was introduced only to be destroyed in the end ), is that Jil NEVER clearly rejects her. Whenever Fatina brought up the subject, he would either moan indecisively or say that he's still thinking about Kaaya. But it seemed like it was never an issue to Jil, at least not a pressing issue to him compared to other matters involving Kaaya and Neeba.

It was only when Fatina gave up and slapped/pushed Kaaya onto him that the situation was resolved... a resolution in which Jil had absolutely no part in reaching himself. In other words, Jil didn't choose Kaaya: it just happened by default.

It makes me wonder just how much Jil changed over the course of the show, if at all. It was his inability to give up and his one track thinking that made him climb the tower, save Kaaya, defeat Druaga, Gil, and Neeba, save the world, etc. etc... but it was also that one track thinking that made him inadvertently take advantage of Fatina's feelings and have his brother hate him enough to destroy the freakin' world. Being a kind idiot has its consequences... does that aspect about him really change in the end?
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Old 2009-03-27, 02:10   Link #1135
BrokenWingz
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What annoyed me most about the Jil x Fatina romance subplot (besides the fact that it was introduced only to be destroyed in the end ), is that Jil NEVER clearly rejects her. Whenever Fatina brought up the subject, he would either moan indecisively or say that he's still thinking about Kaaya. But it seemed like it was never an issue to Jil, at least not a pressing issue to him compared to other matters involving Kaaya and Neeba.

It was only when Fatina gave up and slapped/pushed Kaaya onto him that the situation was resolved... a resolution in which Jil had absolutely no part in reaching himself. In other words, Jil didn't choose Kaaya: it just happened by default.

It makes me wonder just how much Jil changed over the course of the show, if at all. It was his inability to give up and his one track thinking that made him climb the tower, save Kaaya, defeat Druaga, Gil, and Neeba, save the world, etc. etc... but it was also that one track thinking that made him inadvertently take advantage of Fatina's feelings and have his brother hate him enough to destroy the freakin' world. Being a kind idiot has its consequences... does that aspect about him really change in the end?
lol, what’s this? Playing the blame game for a characters who's was never love back by the man she like?
Now I’m laughing hysterically at the following post. let me be cruel, fatina uses Jil iintentional as a tool to get over her ordeal to believed in someone dense that would no way could betray her. You think such mindset is innocent which will allow her to be with Jil? so why can i say this because she confessed it herself.

Fatina knew as much as everyone else that Jil only liked Kaaya, delusion as it seems I don't know what you're talking about. Clinging to someone hoping they're will change will not get any message across.
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Old 2009-03-27, 02:21   Link #1136
golthin
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What annoyed me most about the Jil x Fatina romance subplot (besides the fact that it was introduced only to be destroyed in the end ), is that Jil NEVER clearly rejects her.
that is true, but i guess if you confess to someone and the person tells you "I don't know what to say" it a kind of rejection. the first time that Fatina confessed to him, that is what he said.
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Old 2009-03-27, 02:24   Link #1137
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lol, what’s this? Playing the blame game for a characters who's was never love back by the man she like?
Now I’m laughing hysterically at the following post. let me be cruel, fatina uses Jil inventively as a tool to get over her ordeal to believed in someone dense that would no way could betray her. You think such mindset is innocent which will allow her to be with Jil? so why can i say this because she confessed it herself.

Fatina knew as much as everyone else that Jil only liked Kaaya, delusion as it seems I don't know what you're talking about. Clinging to someone hoping they're will change will not get any message across.
Fine, maybe I was being too vindictive. But my question still stands: does Jil change from being a dense idiot or is he a dense idiot throughout the entire show? He was led around by pure circumstance (everything from his unclear relationship with Fatina to his motivations in climbing the tower) and that doesn't change, not even to the very end of the show.

Maybe I should be angry at myself for expecting him to do anything different from a typical boy lead in an action animu. Ugh... I really should forget I even watched this show...
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Old 2009-03-27, 02:40   Link #1138
golthin
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Fine, maybe I was being too vindictive. But my question still stands: does Jil change from being a dense idiot or is he a dense idiot throughout the entire show? He was led around by pure circumstance (everything from his unclear relationship with Fatina to his motivations in climbing the tower) and that doesn't change, not even to the very end of the show.

Maybe I should be angry at myself for expecting him to do anything different from a typical boy lead in an action animu. Ugh... I really should forget I even watched this show...
he did change, he learned that sometime you have to use people to accomplish your goals.
In the first season, he thought that the safety of his companions was more important that climbing a tower. In the second season he considered Climbing the tower more important than the safety of anyone. when Utuu asked jil if he planned to continue even with the shape that Fatina was in and he said yes, because he was a climber .I don't think that the Jil from the first season would have tried to convince Fatina to go with them the second time. The little conversation he had with her through the windows is what made Fatina change her mind.

Really, anyone that doesn't see that Jil used Fatina is in denial, I am not saying he did it maliciously, like Neeba did. I don't think Jil would betray any of his companions the same way that neeba did. The argument about Fatina using Jil to get over Neeba is different because during that time they were supporting each other to get past the Neeba/Kaaya's betrayal.
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Old 2009-03-27, 02:57   Link #1139
BrokenWingz
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Fine, maybe I was being too vindictive. But my question still stands: does Jil change from being a dense idiot or is he a dense idiot throughout the entire show? He was led around by pure circumstance (everything from his unclear relationship with Fatina to his motivations in climbing the tower) and that doesn't change, not even to the very end of the show.

Maybe I should be angry at myself for expecting him to do anything different from a typical boy lead in an action animu. Ugh... I really should forget I even watched this show...
The question is what you are expecting from an action/rpg/fantasy series. If it was a romantic school theme anime the lead will always pay attention to the other girls. What Jil action has said is how faithful he is to one girl, rather simple if you think about it that. I'm positive he notices fatina's feelings towards him but he does not reciprocate hers feelings back. Have you play tales of legendia? Perhaps not.
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he did change, he learned that sometime you have to use people to accomplish your goals.
In the first season, he thought that the safety of his companions was more important that climbing a tower. In the second season he considered Climbing the tower more important than the safety of anyone. when Utuu asked jil if he planned to continue even with the shape that Fatina was in and he said yes, because he was a climber .I don't think that the Jil from the first season would have tried to convince Fatina to go with them the second time. The little conversation he had with her through the windows is what made Fatina change her mind.

Really, anyone that doesn't see that Jil used Fatina is in denial, I am not saying he did it maliciously, like Neeba did. I don't think Jil would betray any of his companions the same way that neeba did. The argument about Fatina using Jil to get over Neeba is different because during that time they were supporting each other to get past the Neeba/Kaaya's betrayal.
Absurd I tell ya. So now kindness is a weapon against tainted maiden. The difference in what being a tool comes from malice intent, if there are no intention to deceive you can't call the situation being 'use' only consent from both parties are present for Jil and Fatina both are in mutual agreement to help each others. Fatina is acting in accordance by her own free will and within the proximity of a friend. Are you sure youíre not being stubborn and reading too much of nothing into something.
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Old 2009-03-27, 03:33   Link #1140
RevRayCool
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The question is what you are expecting from an action/rpg/fantasy series. If it was a romantic school theme anime the lead will always pay attention to the other girls. What Jil action has said is how faithful he is to one girl, rather simple if you think about it that. I'm positive he notices fatina's feelings towards him but he does not reciprocate hers feelings back. Have you play tales of legendia? Perhaps not.
Yes I have, actually. And my stance with ToL is exactly the same with Druaga:

Spoiler:


I also tend to dislike dull, clueless leads. And no, romantic school theme shows have much of the same leads: people who are so absorbed with their own crushes or whatever that they always fail to see the feelings of others right next to them. I've seen so many of them, that they just ruin any entertainment value for any game or animu that has them for me.

You ever play Tales of Vesperia? I loved that game. Sure, it had much of the same cliches as any JRPG out there, except for one thing. The main lead knew exactly what he wanted and carried out what needed to be done, and he tried carrying his burdens alone.

That's far different from Jil, who didn't have a clear goal in mind when climbing the tower in S1, while he made climbing his sole purpose in S2, very much ignoring the feelings of his companions. Sure, his companions decided to go along with him on their own, but did Jil keep their thoughts in mind? Or was he so preoccupied with catching up to Kaaya and Neeba (as well as being a clueless, stupid idiot) that he failed to realize that he was endangering his friends' lives on his own selfish quest (in the beginning anyway)?

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The difference in what being a tool comes from malice intent, if there are no intention to deceive you can't call the situation being 'use' only consent from both parties are present for Jil and Fatina both are in mutual agreement to help each others.
That's like saying that a man who accidentally runs over a pedestrian is clear from guilt because he didn't intend to kill the pedestrian, and the pedestrian didn't intend to die that day. Sure, Fatina decided to go along and help Jil on her own, but Jil must to have realized that her motivations were far different from his and that she had little to NO reason being in that tower unlike he did. Just because Fatina decided to go with Jil doesn't make Jil's lack of consideration for her any less selfish or manipulative. And his stupidity isn't an excuse either.

Last edited by RevRayCool; 2009-03-27 at 03:46.
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