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View Poll Results: Toradora! - Episode 25 (END) Rating
Perfect 10 263 62.17%
9 out of 10 : Excellent 68 16.08%
8 out of 10 : Very Good 37 8.75%
7 out of 10 : Good 23 5.44%
6 out of 10 : Average 12 2.84%
5 out of 10 : Below Average 3 0.71%
4 out of 10 : Poor 1 0.24%
3 out of 10 : Bad 1 0.24%
2 out of 10 : Very Bad 1 0.24%
1 out of 10 : Painful 14 3.31%
Voters: 423. You may not vote on this poll

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Old 2009-03-27, 14:58   Link #361
Jethro
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Originally Posted by CaptGloval View Post
I just remembered, Taiga would always ask a second, third, etc... serving of Ryuuji's meals. I guess when it comes to Ryuuji's generosity, for Taiga, it's always "one more..."
I agree! ^_^
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Old 2009-03-27, 14:58   Link #362
Reckoner
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Originally Posted by Kaisos Erranon View Post
My ass. Not every story HAS an ending.

Reckoner, no offense, but I'm becoming convinced you hate every show you watch...
The issue is not that is open ended, but rather that these stories never reached a point where I could say it was adequately resolved.

And I actually like Toradora quite a bit, I just felt that the ending done by JC staff was very poor and I ended up feeling disappointed.
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Old 2009-03-27, 15:01   Link #363
Kaisos Erranon
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Originally Posted by Reckoner View Post
It is not that it is left open ended, but rather that these stories never reached their peak.
Author wants to write more, probably ABOUT the side characters. One reason it may have been left open.

Another reason is that real life doesn't wrap up very nicely like that. Reminds me of Azumanga a little.

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Originally Posted by Reckoner View Post
And I actually like Toradora quite a bit, I just felt that the ending done by JC staff was very poor and I ended up feeling disappointed.
It's... basically the same as in the novels. Differs in details, but pretty much the same thing.

Don't blame JC for only having a summary to work with.
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Old 2009-03-27, 15:09   Link #364
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... well, its "the same" in the same sense that a one page synopsis of a 30 page study is "the same". Episode 24 and 25 had to cover nearly two full volumes of story. It was probably a hair-pulling process of reduction. Ep 24 seems to have suffered the most (in terms that many people who have not read the material had some difficulty in understanding the "why" of some actions). Ep 25 wrapped up nicely but there were a lot of parts left on the floor from the assembly.... and as Kaisos mentions they had to do a lot of the storyboarding from an outline rather than the detailed events of the last book.

Overall I loved the anime series (and will discuss it in that thread when it is created) but I'm not going to pretend there weren't any blemishes.
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Old 2009-03-27, 15:12   Link #365
typhonsentra
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Originally Posted by Reckoner View Post
I don't remember complaining about Ryuji's angst, I only complained about Yasako. No, a rewatch is not in order. This was horribly foreshadowed.
No offense man, but this comes off as really arrogant. "I didn't misunderstand anything, it's the show's fault! I won't recheck the scenes people suggest either."

They foreshadowed everything with Yasuko fine. Did you not catch the fact that she's a single pregnant teenage runaway before this episode or what? Because if you did, can you really not imagine how that'd be hard for her? Her relationship with her son is her whole life, him yelling at her and running off left her very hurt.

Quote:
I did not misunderstand Ryuji's dilemma with his mother. Like I said, he quickly recovered from his psychological dilemma with relatively no explanation other than the fact that he has seen his mother tried hard for his sake, and that this is what she wants. This does not clear up the issue though. I do not see how he could of recovered from his thoughts of being a burden. He still has to decide if he wants to work to help his mother, or fulfill his mother's wishes of chasing greater goals in college. He feels he'll be a burden if he does not try to bring in pay.
The entire point of the trip to the grandparent's house was to have Ryuuji do something for his mom. Remember his words on the bridge about him wondering why his mom won't let him help her and how that makes him feel like a burden? This is him doing that big thing to help her, helping her reconcile with her parents, having a baaah sweet conversation and going home together. I didn't have any problem with this because he really does. Also, his problem wasn't so much wanting to support his mother financially so much as him not wanting to be a burden on her financially and physically (Exhaustion from overworking). Differing from the novel, I don't think we're given any indication that Ryuuji will pursue college at this point (He filled out his form saying he wants to pursue work, I can't remember if he changed it though). Either way though, it doesn't really matter.

Quote:
And side characters or not, you do not introduce stories if you do plan to conclude them. Bad storytelling.

Kitamura's going to America to be with Sumire, Yasuko's reconciled with her parents, Inko-chan said his name, Ami's accepted Ryuuji as a friend, Minori's fulfilling her dream in pursuing softball, Noto finally made a move on Maya. What side character are you talking about?


Quote:
Yeah, but I am not judging the novels here, just the anime. I am sure that are far less flaws in the novels, but that is J.C. staff's fault for poorly adapting the material in these last episodes. There could be legitimate excuses for these flaws, but being able to see this does not change the fact that I did not enjoy the ending episodes in this show. I think I would definitely appreciate a remake of the last 6-8 episodes of this show or so, with perhaps an extension of the episode count..
I'd be all for a remake that allowed the story to be fleshed out more, a lot of good material was cut. Early on especially, some of the episodes just felt jarring in their pacing and that first filler episode was forgettable at best. It's just that I feel that on it's own this ending they created is very satisfying and honestly, sounds better in several ways than what I've heard about the novel equivalent. Really, I can't think of a more complete and fulfilling ending to a show, for frame of reference what would you say is better?
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Old 2009-03-27, 15:26   Link #366
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I'm not crying

I'm not crying!

This is just sweat.
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Old 2009-03-27, 15:31   Link #367
puppygod
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I'm not crying

I'm not crying!

This is just sweat.
It's nosebleed of the heart
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Old 2009-03-27, 15:32   Link #368
Kaisos Erranon
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Just like to mention here, since I think it's rather relevant:

Although the journey IS more important than the destination, it's the ending that sticks in your memory forever.

Which is why for a show to be good, it has to be good OVERALL. Something about something being a sum of its parts or something. I don't know what I'm trying to quote.
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Old 2009-03-27, 16:02   Link #369
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Originally Posted by typhonsentra View Post
No offense man, but this comes off as really arrogant. "I didn't misunderstand anything, it's the show's fault! I won't recheck the scenes people suggest either."
I'm not going to sit here and challenge my own opinion, if that is arrogant so be it.

Quote:
Originally Posted by typhonsentra View Post
They foreshadowed everything with Yasuko fine. Did you not catch the fact that she's a single pregnant teenage runaway before this episode or what? Because if you did, can you really not imagine how that'd be hard for her? Her relationship with her son is her whole life, him yelling at her and running off left her very hurt.
Single pregnant teenager? Check. That's not what I am talking about. Yasuko freaking out on Ryuji when he saw him working was just too uncharacteristic. In the show we have only seen a very happy woman, who showed no real signs of any angst. But all of a sudden, this woman changes and becomes angry, fearful, and hysterical? The character is poorly constructed. Minorin in comparison had her emotions gradually layed out before us. At first she was the happy extrovert that we slowly realized actually internalized a lot of her negative emotions. Yasuko? Nothing. She was thrown on us like Hurricane Katrina.

Quote:
Originally Posted by typhonsentra View Post
The entire point of the trip to the grandparent's house was to have Ryuuji do something for his mom. Remember his words on the bridge about him wondering why his mom won't let him help her and how that makes him feel like a burden? This is him doing that big thing to help her, helping her reconcile with her parents, having a baaah sweet conversation and going home together. I didn't have any problem with this because he really does. Also, his problem wasn't so much wanting to support his mother financially so much as him not wanting to be a burden on her financially and physically (Exhaustion from overworking). Differing from the novel, I don't think we're given any indication that Ryuuji will pursue college at this point (He filled out his form saying he wants to pursue work, I can't remember if he changed it though). Either way though, it doesn't really matter.
I do think it matters. It is the source of the entire argument between him and Yasuko. He wants to work to help her, but she wants him to go to college so he can reach better goals. Helping his mother a little bit did not really resolve the issue. Also, they swept by this moment in the anime so fast, there was literally zero time to feel the moment, so to speak.

Quote:
Originally Posted by typhonsentra View Post
Kitamura's going to America to be with Sumire, Yasuko's reconciled with her parents, Inko-chan said his name, Ami's accepted Ryuuji as a friend, Minori's fulfilling her dream in pursuing softball, Noto finally made a move on Maya. What side character are you talking about?
Only two characters I mentioned were Minorin and Ami. I did not believe that Ami's woes were that she could not accept Ryuji as a friend necessarily. She said it was about someone understanding her, and she finally realized that this did not need to be a relationship of love. However, like I said, she just graduated so that person is gone. She does not have the luxury of Ryuji's presence like Taiga. Does she want to continue being a model? Are her feelings of loneliness truly gone? I just thought they left us hanging here with these two characters, where they also left us hanging with Ryuji and Taiga.
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Old 2009-03-27, 16:05   Link #370
leonard267
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Quote:
No, the light novel doesn't end exactly like the anime
I haven't read it myself but appearently I have read some spoilers xD
Is this the thread to name the spoilers? I hope so, because I want to be enlightened about what happens in the novel right in the end. The ending of the anime must be the only part that deviates from the novel then.

On a finishing note, this anime never fails to surprise me, and it is like what a lot of people described it to be "powerful".

For all the twists and turns in the anime, I found them acceptable and logical. This help contribute to my opinion that this anime is definitely one of the best dramas I have seen.
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Old 2009-03-27, 16:09   Link #371
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Originally Posted by typhonsentra View Post
Kitamura's going to America to be with Sumire, Yasuko's reconciled with her parents, Inko-chan said his name, Ami's accepted Ryuuji as a friend, Minori's fulfilling her dream in pursuing softball, Noto finally made a move on Maya. What side character are you talking about?
I think some people might only be satisfied with a Dickensian-style ending: "A and B lived happily ever after, had two children, and eventually went into retirement still very much in love with each other. Of their children, one became a doctor and the other a barrister, etc. etc."... three pages of this stuff, half a page for each pairing . The Fruits Basket manga had something similar, if I remember correctly: skip to the epilogue, and the two teenaged protagonists are suddenly an elderly couple walking hand in hand -_-

Quote:
It's just that I feel that on it's own this ending they created is very satisfying and honestly, sounds better in several ways than what I've heard about the novel equivalent. Really, I can't think of a more complete and fulfilling ending to a show, for frame of reference what would you say is better?
Clannad's ending had a greater emotional impact simply due to the nature of the story, but also problems on a much larger scale, so in balance, I'll have to say Toradora wins overall. As for the "journey"... well, Toradora was the most addictive show ever. Enough said.

Hmm, all of this talk has got me interested in reading the novel at some point. I'll probably buy the (licensed) Chinese translation because Japanese novels translated into English just don't flow well for some reason... and it's not only linguistic issues, but the style of writing as well.
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Old 2009-03-27, 16:15   Link #372
Vexx
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Originally Posted by leonard267 View Post
Is this the thread to name the spoilers? I hope so, because I want to be enlightened about what happens in the novel right in the end. The ending of the anime must be the only part that deviates from the novel then.

On a finishing note, this anime never fails to surprise me, and it is like what a lot of people described it to be "powerful".

For all the twists and turns in the anime, I found them acceptable and logical. This help contribute to my opinion that this anime is definitely one of the best dramas I have seen.
No, go to the novel thread for novel spoilers, its next door .... sheesh

Quote:
Originally Posted by Yukinokesshou View Post
I think some people might only be satisfied with a Dickensian-style ending: "A and B lived happily ever after, had two children, and eventually went into retirement still very much in love with each other. Of their children, one became a doctor and the other a barrister, etc. etc."... three pages of this stuff, half a page for each pairing . The Fruits Basket manga had something similar, if I remember correctly: skip to the epilogue, and the two teenaged protagonists are suddenly an elderly couple walking hand in hand -_-



Clannad's ending had a greater emotional impact simply due to the nature of the story, but also problems on a much larger scale, so in balance, I'll have to say Toradora wins overall. As for the "journey"... well, Toradora was the most addictive show ever. Enough said.

Hmm, all of this talk has got me interested in reading the novel at some point. I'll probably buy the (licensed) Chinese translation because Japanese novels translated into English just don't flow well for some reason... and it's not only linguistic issues, but the style of writing as well.
The translators at baka-tsuki aren't necessarily experienced writers, so they're just going for "literal" (which often means that subtlety or poetic metaphor gets trampled). I've just gotten a copy of the PROFESSIONALLY translated first volume of SHnY from YEN press .... well, the baka-tsuki people should pat themselves on the back because the PROFESSIONAL volume 1 SHnY reads pretty rough as well.
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Old 2009-03-27, 16:17   Link #373
Yukinokesshou
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Originally Posted by Vexx View Post
The translators aren't necessarily experienced writers, so they're just going for "literal" (which often means that subtlety or poetic metaphor gets trampled). I've just gotten a copy of the PROFESSIONALLY translated first volume of SHnY.... well, the Baka-tsuki people should pat themselves on the back because the PROFESSIONAL volume 1 SHnY reads pretty rough as well.
All I can say is that literal translations of Japanese writing work a lot better in Chinese than in English. I agree that Baka-Tsuki are doing an awesome job; it's not their fault Japanese and English writing styles are significantly different.

[Edit] Didn't want to make a new post just for this so I'm writing it here...
"Can someone tell me how to spoil?" ... That has got to be the funniest thing I've read today

[Edit 2] Hmm, I guess Sephiroth was asking about the proper way to go about spoiling something, i.e. using spoiler tags (it's that "warning icon" in the formatting bar that moves aside to reveal a face) and posting in the correct threads. However, that question in isolation is really quite hilarious.

Last edited by Yukinokesshou; 2009-03-27 at 16:28.
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Old 2009-03-27, 16:18   Link #374
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Originally Posted by leonard267 View Post
Is this the thread to name the spoilers? I hope so, because I want to be enlightened about what happens in the novel right in the end. The ending of the anime must be the only part that deviates from the novel then.

On a finishing note, this anime never fails to surprise me, and it is like what a lot of people described it to be "powerful".

For all the twists and turns in the anime, I found them acceptable and logical. This help contribute to my opinion that this anime is definitely one of the best dramas I have seen.
I haven't read it at all like I said ... So I don't think that it differs much, but theres one point I heard ... if u would like to know just say^^ but first
can someone tell me how to spoil? appearently I'm almost a newbie here xD
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Old 2009-03-27, 16:29   Link #375
Jethro
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It's nosebleed of the heart
I love that line

I feel that the they should write more about the side characters. The things I know about the side characters isn't enough/ lacks.
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Old 2009-03-27, 16:33   Link #376
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I haven't read it at all like I said ... So I don't think that it differs much, but theres one point I heard ... if u would like to know just say^^ but first
can someone tell me how to spoil? appearently I'm almost a newbie here xD
First, read the forum rules.
Second, don't put novel spoilers in non-novel threads. That's deletable/bannable EVEN if they are covered by a spoiler tag.
We have a novel thread next door, talk about the novel there.

And if you've just HEARD something.... you might want to rethink saying it unless you've verified it yourself. People don't take kindly to unverified gossip/rumor because it often turns out to be just wrong.

As for how to TAG something under a spoiler metatag - when you create/edit a post, look in the upper right of the format buttons for an animated girl peeking out from behind a triangle. Use your mouse to highlight the text you want to conceal, then click the triangle.
You'll get a subwindow asking you to title the spoiler -- please take the time to title it so that people understand why they shouldn't peer inside.
Example: "Spoilers from Volume 10" or "If you haven't seen chapter X, don't open"

Spoiler for example of construction:

If you quote this post into your post, you'll see how the tags are constructed --- its basically similar to HTML codes.
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Old 2009-03-27, 16:41   Link #377
hyl
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Originally Posted by Kaisos Erranon View Post
Just like to mention here, since I think it's rather relevant:

Although the journey IS more important than the destination, it's the ending that sticks in your memory forever.
I agree with this.
A nice example would be code geass r2. The series was awefully written en ridiculious, but it had an ending that nobody will forget.

I find the series ToraDora itself every good. But even though the ending was in my opinion still very good, I find it a bit laccking compared to some of the previous episodes.
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Old 2009-03-27, 16:41   Link #378
typhonsentra
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Originally Posted by Reckoner View Post
I'm not going to sit here and challenge my own opinion, if that is arrogant so be it.
No, what I said was arrogant was the attitude that looking back at the scenes isn't necessary.

Quote:
Single pregnant teenager? Check. That's not what I am talking about. Yasuko freaking out on Ryuji when he saw him working was just too uncharacteristic. In the show we have only seen a very happy woman, who showed no real signs of any angst. But all of a sudden, this woman changes and becomes angry, fearful, and hysterical? The character is poorly constructed. Minorin in comparison had her emotions gradually layed out before us. At first she was the happy extrovert that we slowly realized actually internalized a lot of her negative emotions. Yasuko? Nothing. She was thrown on us like Hurricane Katrina.
Are you talking about her calling Ryuuji a liar on the street after work or her running away from home? If it's the first, you really consider that a huge blow-up? She basically said (I wouldn't even call it yelling) that she's angry that they were going behind her back to do this and that he should be concentrating on his studies. If it's the latter, she's just childish and always have been. I don't see how that's out of character for her, especially since she has a history of running away when she thinks she's in trouble/has caused trouble.

She thinks she's looking out for his best interests by making sacrifices for him but Ryuuji doesn't see it that way and that's where the fight begins. Yes she's putting her own hopes for him above what he says he wants to/doesn't want to do (He did want to go to college, at least at some point in time) but that's normal for a parent, especially one with a child who excels at school.

Quote:
I do think it matters. It is the source of the entire argument between him and Yasuko. He wants to work to help her, but she wants him to go to college so he can reach better goals. Helping his mother a little bit did not really resolve the issue. Also, they swept by this moment in the anime so fast, there was literally zero time to feel the moment, so to speak.
I think it's resolved because we see no indication that he's planning to go to college anymore. I'd like to point out though that Ryuuji isn't really looking to financially support her so much as he views going to college as too much of a burden on her. The reason he took the part time job in the show was because it was Yasuko's job and she was sick through that period.

Quote:
Only two characters I mentioned were Minorin and Ami. I did not believe that Ami's woes were that she could not accept Ryuji as a friend necessarily. She said it was about someone understanding her, and she finally realized that this did not need to be a relationship of love. However, like I said, she just graduated so that person is gone. She does not have the luxury of Ryuji's presence like Taiga. Does she want to continue being a model? Are her feelings of loneliness truly gone? I just thought they left us hanging here with these two characters, where they also left us hanging with Ryuji and Taiga.
Her character isn't as needy as the novel version, that's the way I look at it. So long as their are people out there who care about her and can truly accept her that's enough for her and she can move on with her life. Is this her ideal situation? Probably not but she's happy and we saw nothing to indicate that she feels otherwise.

I'd like to see more on her too but I think they gave us enough information for what the story required, she had her scene where she made peace with her position in regards to Ryuuji and the group as a whole and that's all that can be said about it. What she does after graduation is up to her, maybe we'll get an OVA, which I'd like (But again, it's not necessary).
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Old 2009-03-27, 16:55   Link #379
Shabazza
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http://anidb.net/perl-bin/animedb.pl...909&attid=6853 very good review. Pretty much sums up why Toradora is just below average.
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Old 2009-03-27, 16:57   Link #380
Zippicus
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I don't remember complaining about Ryuji's angst, I only complained about Yasako. No, a rewatch is not in order. This was horribly foreshadowed.

I did not misunderstand Ryuji's dilemma with his mother. Like I said, he quickly recovered from his psychological dilemma with relatively no explanation other than the fact that he has seen his mother tried hard for his sake, and that this is what she wants. This does not clear up the issue though. I do not see how he could of recovered from his thoughts of being a burden. He still has to decide if he wants to work to help his mother, or fulfill his mother's wishes of chasing greater goals in college. He feels he'll be a burden if he does not try to bring in pay.

And side characters or not, you do not introduce stories if you do plan to conclude them. Bad storytelling.
Just for the record, Ryuji's psychological dilemma = angst. As far as the foreshadowing, plenty of us thought it was fine so I'm not sure what to tell you there.

It still seems like you didn't quite get the conflict between Ryuji and Yasako. It seems like you picked a few phrases said by Ryuji in one episode and ignored, missed, or failed to connect the dots on the rest of the info that was presented. I don't really feel like re-hashing everything that went down, there was a lot of information given in little bits over a bunch of different episodes. The short version is that they both did things that the other didn't want them to do because they were trying to help each other and it ended up blowing up in their faces.

I'm not really sure what your beef with the supporting cast is, how much more closure were you looking for ? They got the standard treatment that most other side characters get, a brief explanation, a parting shot, etc.
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