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Old 2009-04-04, 23:24   Link #2061
GuidoHunter_Toki
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It was a successful launch as well. The rocket's second booster stage splashed down in the Pacific Ocean.

Also the Japanese government has asked for an emergency session of the U.N. Security Council after the rocket flew over its territory.
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Old 2009-04-04, 23:39   Link #2062
ClockWorkAngel
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@Narona

I can understand your perception, they are rather 3 different substances. (By definition, alcohol and cigarettes are drugs). However you can't deny that they have their side effects.

People die from cigarettes and alcohol. You can't deny it. Their organs destroy themselves. Marijuana if intaken correctly will have little damage to the lungs (Vapourization), not to mention you can't overdose on it. Other drugs can and that's undeniable. But why do we keep these two substances legal, even though the damage they do is just amazing?

Quote:
Originally Posted by Narona View Post
Because alcohol is not only for people who wants to become drunk. If a normal adult drinks one little glass of wine or beer, he/she will likely not be drunk and not have any immediate bad effect on his/her senses and behaviors. I can also add, that now in France, it's forbidden to sell alcohol to people under 18. It's not perfect thought, but it's still something that many parents actually appreciated here in France.
I don't think most people drink to become drunk, they just become drunk after drinking too much. Hangovers = bad and isn't the best part of drinking I'm sure. One can make the same assertion for drugs, you won't get high if the dose is neleigible. And, that law's only been recently passed? It's been quite illegal to sell here in Canada (19 except in Quebec) since for as long I can remember.

Alcohol, makes people do bad things, can you deny that if you're under the influence you're more prone to do irrational things? Assault, Domestic Violence, Drunk Driving and so on, some drugs may influence a person's ability to do these things, I myself haven't heard of them.

People do bad things, drugs help them (That includes alcohol) do those bad things. That doesn't mean that you can punish every person because of a single bad decision on the basics that they might do something bad. The thing about legalization of drugs is that they can do what they want to do to themselves, so long they don't screw with other people, that's common sense! We have laws to protect people (Though in my opinon, to protect the offenders) and so on.
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Old 2009-04-04, 23:45   Link #2063
Narona
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Quote:
Originally Posted by ClockWorkAngel View Post
@Narona

I can understand your perception, they are rather 3 different substances. (By definition, alcohol and cigarettes are drugs). However you can't deny that they have their side effects.

People die from cigarettes and alcohol. You can't deny it. Their organs destroy themselves. Marijuana if intaken correctly will have little damage to the lungs (Vapourization), not to mention you can't overdose on it. Other drugs can and that's undeniable. But why do we keep these two substances legal, even though the damage they do is just amazing?



I don't think most people drink to become drunk, they just become drunk after drinking too much. Hangovers = bad and isn't the best part of drinking I'm sure. One can make the same assertion for drugs, you won't get high if the dose is neleigible. And, that law's only been recently passed? It's been quite illegal to sell here in Canada (19 except in Quebec) since for as long I can remember.

Alcohol, makes people do bad things, can you deny that if you're under the influence you're more prone to do irrational things? Assault, Domestic Violence, Drunk Driving and so on, some drugs may influence a person's ability to do these things, I myself haven't heard of them.

People do bad things, drugs help them (That includes alcohol) do those bad things. That doesn't mean that you can punish every person because of a single bad decision on the basics that they might do something bad. The thing about legalization of drugs is that they can do what they want to do to themselves, so long they don't screw with other people, that's common sense! We have laws to protect people (Though in my opinon, to protect the offenders) and so on.
Did you miss the point on purpose? What many people are not ok with about drugs are the "immediate" bad effect and how they can become a danger to the society even after having taken only "one" dose. One cigarette, one glass of wine have not any of those very bad immediate effects. That's where lies the difference. I can only ask you to read again my previous post.

Quote:
One can make the same assertion for drugs,
Certainly not. It might be discutable about marijuana because not 100% of the people see some of the bad "bad effects" that i was talking about happening after only one dose. But what you say is for example completely wrong about cocaine.
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Old 2009-04-05, 00:01   Link #2064
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But there are some immediate side effects with most drugs, that's the point of it. If you drink alot of alcohol you get drunk, porportiontely quicker in fact, and if too much in one go you get alcohol poisoning and die. Sure it takes alot more alcohol to do so than drugs, but you can't make that inadmissable.

People only see drugs as drugs because its been labelled as such; an illegal substance that makes you high. Alcohol and cigarettes have been socially acceptable, as such their use is tolerated, and increases as more and more people see it as an alternative to drugs (Or something to use as an addition to).

Drugs make people do bad thing yes, its obvious, people know that, but that doesn't mean you can prosecute someone for making a bad decision and in doing so ruin their future. You cna argue they've already ruined their future, but really that's just plain arrogant. There are means to stop addicitions, but only if you don't shove them into the prisons; with their drugs. People get fined for smoking and drinking if their underaged, but in no situation prosecuted. And besides, how can you base your measurement of damage through a single dose? If you compare the death rates and the accident rates between Cigarettes, Alcohol and Marijuana, you'll see an amazing difference. (400,000 in the US alone from smoking, 100,000 a year for alcohol related things; violence, disease etc. and compared to what? 0 possible deaths from Marijuana overdose and perhaps some driving accidents) What is the more dangerous of them? If you can only look in the short term, you're destined for more problems.
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Old 2009-04-05, 00:06   Link #2065
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Quote:
Originally Posted by ClockWorkAngel View Post
People do bad things, drugs help them (That includes alcohol) do those bad things. That doesn't mean that you can punish every person because of a single bad decision on the basics that they might do something bad. The thing about legalization of drugs is that they can do what they want to do to themselves, so long they don't screw with other people, that's common sense! We have laws to protect people (Though in my opinon, to protect the offenders) and so on.
How exactly are you going to do that? For those who may want to freely consume those substance, if there is 1 right-minded, there may be 5 wrong-minded ones. You want to make it free, yet not free. It is like not selling alcohol to heavy-drinkers. You can hardly prevent that, once you open that door (if I am not mistaken, you cannot even do something like that for selling guns, at least people try to stay consciously awake while using those, for the others, the reason is to get away from the consciously awake state). On the other hand, if you make it fair, to satisfy that one person, you may let loose a few. And multiply that with hundreds of thousands or millions, you will see a lot of problems. At the end, you will start asking questions similar to "Was it worth killing a million(?) civilians just to get rid of Saddam!".

Also, what if the government wants to legalize that with a requirement, i.e., you have to give permission for your name to be put in a national database where every legal authority and legally entitled companies (for example the company you work for) can access, whenever they want. Just to keep track of that. Of course, they can also keep track of your usage, etc.
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Old 2009-04-05, 00:06   Link #2066
Narona
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Quote:
Originally Posted by ClockWorkAngel View Post
But there are some immediate side effects with most drugs, that's the point of it. If you drink alot of alcohol you get drunk, porportiontely quicker in fact, and if too much in one go you get alcohol poisoning and die. Sure it takes alot more alcohol to do so than drugs, but you can't make that inadmissable.
You keep missing the point on purpose (or my english is very bad, I wonder), so I give up.

Last edited by Narona; 2009-04-05 at 00:19.
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Old 2009-04-05, 00:08   Link #2067
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@ Narona I might not have gotten the point; it probably my bad. Yea, your English grammar is a little sketchy, I think we can put it down anyways.

@Fipskuul The point isn't to make a utopia, but to remove the harmful effects of the banning, eg. the drug dealers. We can regulate it, track usage, get help to where it's needed. The biggest thing for sure we CAN'T do is let the private sector do any of this other than the manufacturing, under no circumstances can we let them handle the distribution. We can't save everyone, that's not the point, like for every drug, if they want it badly enough they'll find the means, we can stop that need by giving them help. The importance is the give the people choice, its better than flatly denying them their right to screw themselves. A responsible person won't take it in the first place. We can't hope to save everyone in the world, but atleast stop the crime, stop putting people into jail for something that's beyond their own control now, and let the justice department actually achieve something. There'll always be stupid people doing stupid things, but we don't need the backlash of trying to control all of them and as a result cause big problems.
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Old 2009-04-05, 00:15   Link #2068
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Quote:
Originally Posted by GuidoHunter_Toki View Post
It was a successful launch as well. The rocket's second booster stage splashed down in the Pacific Ocean.

Also the Japanese government has asked for an emergency session of the U.N. Security Council after the rocket flew over its territory.
...So did they really manage to put a satellite into orbit? And also, does their network support uncapped monthly network usage?
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Old 2009-04-05, 00:40   Link #2069
Fipskuul
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Quote:
Originally Posted by ClockWorkAngel View Post
@Fipskuul The point isn't to make a utopia, but to remove the harmful effects of the banning, eg. the drug dealers. We can regulate it, track usage, get help to where it's needed. The biggest thing for sure we CAN'T do is let the private sector do any of this other than the manufacturing, under no circumstances can we let them handle the distribution. We can't save everyone, that's not the point, like for every drug, if they want it badly enough they'll find the means, we can stop that need by giving them help. The importance is the give the people choice, its better than flatly denying them their right to screw themselves. A responsible person won't take it in the first place. We can't hope to save everyone in the world, but atleast stop the crime, stop putting people into jail for something that's beyond their own control now, and let the justice department actually achieve something. There'll always be stupid people doing stupid things, but we don't need the backlash of trying to control all of them and as a result cause big problems.
Sorry but I don't really see a badly need for this kind of substances, if you look at it from a user's point of view. The people who may use it as a health-related drug, those people will be few in numbers (and most likely poor enough) to not give any damage to the drug cartel's illegal business.

To me, the drug cartel example is used as a means of justifying a goal related to solely personal satisfaction. Nothing more. You need to give perfect guarantees to everybody involved within the situation to make what you say happen. To go back to the alcohol example, can you honestly believe that combining guns with those substances equals to combining them with alcohol? There are more risks involved. And, it won't really cut, if you say, there will always be stupid people doing stupid things. Especially when the legal authorities are working really hard to stop even one of those stupid people.

And, if those drug dealers find something else, damaging again, what will you do? Legalize what they are doing next too, with other potential excuses?
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Old 2009-04-05, 02:12   Link #2070
Kamui4356
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Originally Posted by Fipskuul View Post
Glad to have learned that I am nuts.
Actually I was referring to myself there. Since WanderingKnight is for the pro legalization side and you seem to be on the other. Sorry I wasn't clearer there.
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Old 2009-04-05, 02:13   Link #2071
yezhanquan
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To me, legalising is one thing. Enforcing the whole thing is another. The reason why Prohibition failed was because it cannot be enforced. If enforcement is weak, I'll rather that a ban is in place, instead of being legal.
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Old 2009-04-05, 02:42   Link #2072
solomon
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Originally Posted by Shadow Minato View Post
N. Korea launches 'satellite' despite international pressure

North Korea finally launches the rocket..

I can't believe that North Korea is acting that way, considering that they are the ones declaring an act of aggression, yet they are going to say things the other way around if any nations dare to take their rocket launch to the UNSC.

Seriously...?
Ohhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhh, Brother.

I can only imagine the uproar when the Diet got word of this
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Old 2009-04-05, 07:28   Link #2073
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Quote:
It's all about protecting the people. And not only the one who take drugs but also the one who could be harmed because the former are not in their "normal" state when under the effect of drugs even if they take it only once. So No, I disagree with your statement about letting people learn by themselves since there's a risk that they could harm other people by just smoking marijuana once, or taking drugs once. There's still some works to do about alcohol (for example, to not see alcohol as one entity, but to differentiate wine and vodka, for instance), I agree, but you can't compare cigarettes and alcohol to drugs just like that.
Alcohol alone has caused far more deaths than any hard drug ever, what with the amount of drunk drivers and violent alcoholics.

Call me biased but I think I've never seen a violent pothead, especially if you consider the fact that most of the marijuana out there is of the Indo variety--which means it provides you with a "physical" high instead of the "mental" high that happens with the Sativa variety. This means the effect is more of complete muscular relaxation than of seeing funny colors.

PS: There are several other problems with the idea of "protecting people against themselves" that go beyond the issue with drugs.
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Old 2009-04-05, 07:29   Link #2074
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well then so has fast food. Fast food is about to be the highest indirect killer of Americans in the next decade.
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Old 2009-04-05, 07:53   Link #2075
Narona
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Quote:
Originally Posted by WanderingKnight View Post
Alcohol alone has caused far more deaths than any hard drug ever, what with the amount of drunk drivers and violent alcoholics.

Call me biased but I think I've never seen a violent pothead, especially if you consider the fact that most of the marijuana out there is of the Indo variety--which means it provides you with a "physical" high instead of the "mental" high that happens with the Sativa variety. This means the effect is more of complete muscular relaxation than of seeing funny colors.

PS: There are several other problems with the idea of "protecting people against themselves" that go beyond the issue with drugs.
That's not the question, you avoid my point too. Too much alcohol causes a person to become drunk and possibly dangerous for himself and the other people. Too much foods cause people to become fat and it's very dangerous for the health, it can kill you too.

Fact is, you can control your consumption of Alcohol (It also depends on the kind of alcohol. Wine is not Vodka.) and food to avoid to become a danger to yourself and/or the society. There was a study in France. Most people who drink wine never get drunk. Because they drink only one to two glasses of wine per day.

Fact is, at least here in France, there were a lot of debates about people who become dangerous after having smoked just one marijuana cigarette. let alone the drugs like Cocaine that are way more dangerous and can actually destroy the brain rapidly and that I can't understand how the people can place them on the same level. Or the other countries don't do any studies on the subject, which would be a shame.

You "might" be among the people who doesn't experience the very bad effects that I was talking about ealier, but from what I know, and from what i've seen here in France, a lot of people are affected by it. For them, they can't moderate their consumption, because even one dose is too much for their body and brain. One dose of drug causes them to lost the ability to make good choices and to actually think about what they are doing.

And yes, I call you biased, but you can call me biased too. France is one of the european countries with a high number of people who take drugs (mainly Marijuana, but now also cocaine), and so we can see bad things happening on a daily basis. The Police, doctors and firemen complain a lot about that. There was even a debate again not so long ago on the TV, and we have our own studies. And I did see people under drugs here in Paris. So I am at least aware of the effects on the people here in France.

PS: It's part of the job of our Republic to think about means to protect the people, and especially in this case, the young people. It's not perfect, but it's something I am proud of. A country that will not do/try anything to protect their people would be, in my eyes, an irresponsible country.

I will not reply to you if you avoid my point again.

Last edited by Narona; 2009-04-05 at 08:25. Reason: It was "can see", and not "can't see" sorry
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Old 2009-04-05, 08:11   Link #2076
MrTerrorist
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North Korea space launch 'fails'

Ha Ha! Well that a HUGE relief for the world and a HUGE embarrassment to North Korea (Too bad the North Korea people will never learn the truth.)

I love this TakeThat response by someone on the BBC Message board about this news.

Quote:
"For those of you who claim that North Korea has the right to test rockets... O.K... but how you feel about one coming over your country without permission being given... get real!"
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Old 2009-04-05, 09:53   Link #2077
SeedFreedom
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Originally Posted by Narona View Post
That's not the question, you avoid my point too. Too much alcohol causes a person to become drunk and possibly dangerous for himself and the other people. Too much foods cause people to become fat and it's very dangerous for the health, it can kill you too.

Fact is, you can control your consumption of Alcohol (It also depends on the kind of alcohol. Wine is not Vodka.) and food to avoid to become a danger to yourself and/or the society. There was a study in France. Most people who drink wine never get drunk. Because they drink only one to two glasses of wine per day.

Fact is, at least here in France, there were a lot of debates about people who become dangerous after having smoked just one marijuana cigarette. let alone the drugs like Cocaine that are way more dangerous and can actually destroy the brain rapidly and that I can't understand how the people can place them on the same level. Or the other countries don't do any studies on the subject, which would be a shame.

You "might" be among the people who doesn't experience the very bad effects that I was talking about ealier, but from what I know, and from what i've seen here in France, a lot of people are affected by it. For them, they can't moderate their consumption, because even one dose is too much for their body and brain. One dose of drug causes them to lost the ability to make good choices and to actually think about what they are doing.

And yes, I call you biased, but you can call me biased too. France is one of the european countries with a high number of people who take drugs (mainly Marijuana, but now also cocaine), and so we can see bad things happening on a daily basis. The Police, doctors and firemen complain a lot about that. There was even a debate again not so long ago on the TV, and we have our own studies. And I did see people under drugs here in Paris. So I am at least aware of the effects on the people here in France.

PS: It's part of the job of our Republic to think about means to protect the people, and especially in this case, the young people. It's not perfect, but it's something I am proud of. A country that will not do/try anything to protect their people would be, in my eyes, an irresponsible country.

I will not reply to you if you avoid my point again.
But there are no laws preventing you from drinking too much right? So getting too drunk to function and possibly do something illegal isn't banned. Its not like bars have a restriction on how much they can sell. (OK they do but no bartender is actually going to follow that). Besides you can walk into any liquor store and buy enough to get an elephant drunk and say your having a party. Weather instant or not, its still possible and legal.

Point is that is why there are police, and gates, and security. To watch over you when someone tries to do something illegal. Does it cost money and could it be solved some other way? sure. Why not implant a chip that stops a person when they are about to do something illegal? Because we live in a free world. We have the freedom to do what we want if we don't harm others. We run the risk of it, but that's the price of freedom.
Spoiler for Off topic, kinda. Not a spoiler.:
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Old 2009-04-05, 10:00   Link #2078
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Originally Posted by MrTerrorist View Post
Considering that how much the rocket would have costed, and how would the money could be used to feed the North Koreans, I express my pity for the failure of the rocket being ACTUALLY built.
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Old 2009-04-05, 10:15   Link #2079
Narona
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Originally Posted by SeedFreedom View Post
But there are no laws preventing you from drinking too much right? So getting too drunk to function and possibly do something illegal isn't banned. Its not like bars have a restriction on how much they can sell. (OK they do but no bartender is actually going to follow that). Besides you can walk into any liquor store and buy enough to get an elephant drunk and say your having a party. Weather instant or not, its still possible and legal.

Point is that is why there are police, and gates, and security. To watch over you when someone tries to do something illegal. Does it cost money and could it be solved some other way? sure. Why not implant a chip that stops a person when they are about to do something illegal? Because we live in a free world. We have the freedom to do what we want if we don't harm others. We run the risk of it, but that's the price of freedom.
Spoiler for Off topic, kinda. Not a spoiler.:
For the last time , the point is that a normal adult is not in state of possibly harming someone else after one glass of wine, because you still have full control on your person. While after one dose of cocaine, a lot of people doesn't have full control anymore. For those people, there's not any possible moderation, and i personally think it's normal to protect the people from that.

And our current Freedom is different from anarchy. True freedom doesn't exist in modern societies, thanksfully.

Last edited by Narona; 2009-04-05 at 10:31.
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Old 2009-04-05, 11:46   Link #2080
SeedFreedom
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Originally Posted by Narona View Post
For the last time , the point is that a normal adult is not in state of possibly harming someone else after one glass of wine, because you still have full control on your person. While after one dose of cocaine, a lot of people doesn't have full control anymore. For those people, there's not any possible moderation, and i personally think it's normal to protect the people from that.

And our current Freedom is different from anarchy. True freedom doesn't exist in modern societies, thanksfully.
And i fully understand and agree with that, But there are no restrictions on people only having one glass. You can say people in your area are more controlled than that but its still not law.

So would it be alright if the dosage was lowered as to make it so you would need to do a few shots of cocaine to get high?

In fact your more likely to accidentally get blind stinking drunk than accidentally high. People who drink a few glasses think they are alright and go for more. People who get high know they will be high off one shot.
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