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View Poll Results: Toradora! - Total Series Rating
Perfect 10 154 42.78%
9 out of 10 : Excellent 113 31.39%
8 out of 10 : Very Good 53 14.72%
7 out of 10 : Good 23 6.39%
6 out of 10 : Average 7 1.94%
5 out of 10 : Below Average 0 0%
4 out of 10 : Poor 1 0.28%
3 out of 10 : Bad 1 0.28%
2 out of 10 : Very Bad 1 0.28%
1 out of 10 : Painful 7 1.94%
Voters: 360. You may not vote on this poll

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Old 2009-04-06, 15:28   Link #41
Kaisos Erranon
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Quote:
Originally Posted by physics223 View Post
Can someone remind me when an opinion has been wrong?
When opinions are based off of wrong information, then yes, they are wrong.

Taiga and Ryuuji are in love with each other. Everything in the show supports this. It's been hinted at since the beginning.

If you're not seeing it, you're obviously trying not to.


Oh, and thanks for the link.
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Old 2009-04-06, 17:06   Link #42
Dorfl
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I'm really not seeing it. I was going to post and explain my viewpoint but it doesn't look like it will make any difference to you guys. And it's not like Toradora is a series I care to spend time discussing either. On to the new season.
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Old 2009-04-06, 17:33   Link #43
typhonsentra
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Originally Posted by Dorfl View Post
I'm really not seeing it. I was going to post and explain my viewpoint but it doesn't look like it will make any difference to you guys. And it's not like Toradora is a series I care to spend time discussing either. On to the new season.
I dunno man, the way you're coming in and out without explaining anything strikes me as pretty lame on your part, but to each his own. For whatever reason you disliked the show.
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Old 2009-04-06, 17:41   Link #44
Dorfl
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Originally Posted by Kaisos Erranon View Post
Taiga and Ryuuji are in love with each other. Everything in the show supports this. It's been hinted at since the beginning.
Wait, this I can't let slide. The only way this romance has been "hinted at since the beginning" is because it's one of the oldest ones in the book. A and B help each other hook up with C and D, but fall in love with each other in the process. In that respect it was obvious from the start, fine. But Ryuuji seeing Taiga in a romantic light came out of the blue to me. It even came out of the blue to him, seeing how flustered he got after Taiga's confession. It's clear he wasn't used to seeing her "that way." And right up to that episode he had Minori on his mind, he even went with his friends to her room to ask her why she turned him down. Two episodes later "I'm actually in love with Taiga." Really? Really, Ryuuji, really?

It's more like Taiga realized she couldn't have Kitamura and shifted her affections to Ryuuji, and Ryuuji's like, oh hey, somebody fancies me. Arguing like this makes me sound like a bitter Minori fan, which I'm actually not. I don't have a problem with the old fall-in-love-by-proximity trope. It's just that it needs to be done much better than it was. Like say you were making a film about a character whose lifelong ambition was to drive from Kentucky to New York...........and never mind that, I'm writing too much. Let's just leave it at "For whatever reason I disliked the show" and call it a day.
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Old 2009-04-06, 17:48   Link #45
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Edit: Nevermind, pushing my opinion on others makes me look like a hypocrite.
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Old 2009-04-06, 17:51   Link #46
BetoJR
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Originally Posted by Dorfl View Post
Let's just leave it at "For whatever reason I disliked the show" and call it a day.
If that's how you want it, let's... By the way, I disagree with pretty much every one of your points. Ryuji's always paid more attention to Taiga then, oh, Minorin - even when he thought he was in love with the latter. Not really all that subtle, either.
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Old 2009-04-06, 18:15   Link #47
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Of course you pay more attention to a good friend and accomplice (who happens to live next door and comes over for meals) than to your crush. That doesn't mean you're in love with him/her. But yeah, this will get us nowhere.
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Old 2009-04-06, 18:18   Link #48
typhonsentra
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I actually made the same mistake you did in misunderstanding Taiga and how she moves from Yuusaku to Ryuuji. After 16 is seemed like she might still have feelings for him but look at the interactions at the beach, this really revealed where she stood between the two of them. She almost openly admitted to thinking the idea of them being a couple wouldn't be a bad thing in her eyes and gives puppy dog eyes at Ryuuji when he's with Minori, ignoring Kitamura who was right next to her. She spent a ton of time with Kitamura during this arc but she didn't seem very into it, it's a lot of small things that build up.

As for Ryuuji, her confession...

Quote:
It even came out of the blue to him, seeing how flustered he got after Taiga's confession.
It came out of the blue to him because he'd never viewed her as an option for him. Up to this point he's been working under the assumption Taiga is in love with Kitamura. As for him liking/desiring Taiga coming out of the blue, there are quite a few hints, but most of them come in the second half of the series which you disliked. Notice the way he gets visibly agitated every time the other people either try to set up the two of them or talk about it? The obvious example is in episode 17 at the diner but a smaller one is in episode 21 when Ryuuji and Minori are talking in the lounge. When Minori calls Noto's belief that Taiga likes Kitamura a misunderstanding, Ryuuji visibly tenses up before responding (One of the many examples of effective body language in this series). He also obsesses over Taiga and Kitamura meeting up on New Year's for most of the episode.

"But why didn't he react that way before this episode? He's been helping Taiga since the beginning, what changed?" You might be thinking. Two things:

1.) He found out that Kitamura is interested in someone else in episode 16. This lead to him completely writing off the possibility of a pairing of him and her. Buuuuuut....
2.) He saw Taiga and Kitamura as a viable couple for the first time at the family restairant. The point being made here is that it's one thing to imagine her moving away from him, it's another entirely to see it happening.

Look at things from his perspective: At the end of episode 21 he heard Minori tell Ami that she could tell anyone that she doesn't care about Ryuuji if she wishes, and the very next day his best friend who he felt like he was losing confesses her love for him. You also say that his feelings progress two quickly but you're working under the assumption he didn't have feelings for Taiga until that moment at the very end of 21. 22 and 23 are him sorting out his feelings and take place roughly a month after the class trip. Is that really too little time for him to figure things out?
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Old 2009-04-06, 18:31   Link #49
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What you saw as "visibly agitated" I saw as "mildly discomfited." As I said, it's only natural to feel a little jealousy when your best friend of the opposite sex finds a romantic interest. You know the dynamic is going to change, you're not going to see them as much as you used to, plus your manly/womanly pride is slightly wounded. It's natural.

And suggesting that he never saw her as an option for him also suggests that he had feelings for her but thought she was out of his reach, which is not supported by the evidence in the anime at all. Furthermore, even if he did start considering her as an option at that point, that makes her just that, "an option." To jump from "an option" to ZOMG BRIDE FOR LYFE, WORD within 2 or 3 episodes is ridiculous. It's just too sudden. If his feelings for her were that strong we'd have had more than a inkling of it all along. At least we would have, if this was the better sort of story.

Even furthermore, why am I still posting about this? And at 11:30 no less, I need to get to bed.
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Old 2009-04-06, 18:33   Link #50
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Well... "out of the blue" means many moments in the series were missed where Ryuuji clearly is attracted to her but puts it away "because she's going after Kitamura".
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Old 2009-04-06, 18:48   Link #51
typhonsentra
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And the way you're taking the word "Option" also implies that you want Ryuuji to play the field. Yeah he could start dating other girls but that isn't really his prerogative. Once he likes someone it's pretty damn hard to deter him, Minori practically had to crush his soul before he was willing to finally give up on her.

As for the first part, you're kinda pushing your own feelings on relationships onto the story here what with downplaying the body language and inner monologues hinting at him developing feelings for her. If what we were seeing was simply petty jealousy then we wouldn't have them as a couple now, would we?

Also, it's natural to think that friendship relationships don't work especially with the way they're portrayed on shows and media. That doesn't mean it's always wrong though, especially if an author's trying something a bit different. People do make the transition unscathed, I've seen it.
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Old 2009-04-06, 19:33   Link #52
Kaisos Erranon
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Originally Posted by typhonsentra View Post
Also, it's natural to think that friendship relationships don't work especially with the way they're portrayed on shows and media. That doesn't mean it's always wrong though, especially if an author's trying something a bit different. People do make the transition unscathed, I've seen it.
Just an addition, but this also appears to be the entire point: That true romantic connections are formed through long-term friendships rather than high school crushes.
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Old 2009-04-06, 20:22   Link #53
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Quote:
Originally Posted by physics223 View Post
Can someone remind me when an opinion has been wrong?

'I still think Ryuuji and Taiga are making a mistake and confusing deep friendship with romantic feelings.'

That's very much an opinion, not a fact.

In case you're still confused, go here. It's a very helpful link.
Thats a great link. I have to bookmark that. It will come in handy for many discussions on the internetz.
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Old 2009-04-06, 21:02   Link #54
Kaisos Erranon
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Thats a great link. I have to bookmark that. It will come in handy for many discussions on the internetz.
No, it will just piss off the person you're using it on, and will not contribute in any way to the discussion.

Indirectly calling someone childish is childish in itself.
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Old 2009-04-06, 22:07   Link #55
physics223
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Thats a great link. I have to bookmark that. It will come in handy for many discussions on the internetz.
Some irrational people misconstrue facts from opinions. That's a very helpful, and simple link at that. Saying people are wrong because of their opinions ... lol internets.

Also, Dorfl: if you want to continue the discussion kindly PM me. I'm very open and cognizant of Toradora's flaws, and while I deem it a better show than you I do recognize its failings.
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Old 2009-04-06, 22:35   Link #56
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Aye, opinions aren't "right" or "wrong" necessarily -- but they do have levels of *credibility*. What facts lead to the opinion, what facts have been left out, unknown, not researched, ... and are there interpretations between the facts and opinions....

Most of the votes seem reasonable, mostly varying on whether someone thought certain matters were less than well conveyed, poorly foreshadowed, etc... much as I love the show, the "10" count does seem a bit much but meh, so it goes.
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Old 2009-04-06, 22:48   Link #57
Kaisos Erranon
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Aye, opinions aren't "right" or "wrong" necessarily -- but they do have levels of *credibility*. What facts lead to the opinion, what facts have been left out, unknown, not researched, ... and are there interpretations between the facts and opinions....
I think this is giving people entirely too much credit, but eh.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Vexx View Post
Most of the votes seem reasonable, mostly varying on whether someone thought certain matters were less than well conveyed, poorly foreshadowed, etc... much as I love the show, the "10" count does seem a bit much but meh, so it goes.
Personally, I voted on overall enjoyment.

If you were to average my ratings for all the episodes, you'd come out with 7 or so, but I think the show deserves so much more than that.

What I'm trying to say is that individual episodes were weaker than the show as a whole.
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Old 2009-04-07, 01:24   Link #58
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I don't think the show is very good, so despite my personal rating or scale of 8, I would have to give it a 7 from the descriptions. The show is good. Not very good, excellent, or perfect, but good.
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Old 2009-04-07, 01:27   Link #59
Kaisos Erranon
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Besides, the ratings don't mean a thing anyway as enjoyment is inherently subjective in the first place.

I'd prefer we NOT have the poll system, myself.
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Old 2009-04-07, 01:34   Link #60
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aye, you can pick individual episodes to pieces... but the overall series I found definitely my cup of tea (as in it moved into my "top tier" of favorite rom-com dramas).
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