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Old 2009-04-09, 06:53   Link #821
Jan-Poo
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Quote:
They watched the human history of EP3 until the year of 3.598 AD, when a meteor destroyed earth. Then EP4 starts
Spoiler for up to ep4 translated:
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Old 2009-04-09, 07:11   Link #822
izmosmolnar
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I know I'm definitely overanalyzing it , it's kinda my obsession to seek those things wich doesn't make too much sense. That's why I warned everyone not to take it the wrong way, and just ignore it if anyone is not interested in it.
I was just trying to point out, that there are quite a few contradictions in ep4, which one cannot really logically explain, unless we heavily complement those things using our imagination.

edit:
Spoiler for I'm not trying to be finicky or anything, but my point isn't how the 2 stake sisters are "killed"/gravely injured by Kyrie and Rudolf and revived.:

Last edited by izmosmolnar; 2009-04-09 at 08:02. Reason: spoilertag
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Old 2009-04-09, 08:02   Link #823
WhiteFrost
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Originally Posted by Jan-Poo View Post
I'm not sure about that, it looks like Maria has been known this "Beatrice" since a long time, and that means she's been alone with her many times in the past. I know there's still a possibility that she made all that up, but that's kinda improbable. As far as Maria's imagination can go wild, her knowledge of magic doesn't seem something that she came up with on her own. She knows magic circles and demonology, she know the psalms in the bible, where did she learn all that stuff? She might have found books in the library but still... it's very improbable that she even started to delve in black magic without a mentor, without someone or something that triggered that interest.
I'm following what you are saying, but there is still the possibility that she simply learned it from books, there has to be a trigger as you say but even that can still be really simple.
This has nothing to do with Umineko, but when I was a child I happened to discover a few books in my mothers bookshelf. A lot of them came from my aunties when they and my mother still lived together. Those books were books about magic and that was enough to trigger my interest for many years. One of my auts still call herself a "witch" and affectionally calls me the Witch of April.
A mentor is not really necessary, you are able to learn quite a lot by yourself, and since Mariah seems to have some light kind of rainman-syndrome it is not that impossible. And about that black magic part, I know from personal experience that it actually is pretty easy to confuse some magic from another, especially if you're on your own.
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Old 2009-04-09, 08:14   Link #824
Kitsu
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But you seem to forget that there were drawing from another person inside her book, also a message at the end of her book which says that a person which calls herself Beatrice acknowledges her as a witch. I don't think she did that on her own. Also I don't think that she has "imaginary friends" which could be the "Beatrice" and "Virgillia" we saw. It's more like she alters things to her liking. And like this her toys become friends and maybe Kumasawa becomes "Virgillia" only Beatrice confuses me.

Last edited by Kitsu; 2009-04-09 at 08:32.
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Old 2009-04-09, 08:17   Link #825
theacefrehley
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Well,
From where did you take Eva-b used them as vessels or ingredients?
They turned into dust and Eva just invoked the siestas from thin air.
If I remember well...
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Old 2009-04-09, 08:41   Link #826
Jan-Poo
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I also don't remember the vessel and ingredient thing , that wouldn't be the first time i forget something... however it looks that even ace doesn't remember that.

Quote:
and since Mariah seems to have some light kind of rainman-syndrome
Uhm i don't think maria suffers from light form of autism, if that's what you imply. She does have some difficulties to make friends, but the very fact she clearly understands the emotions of other people disprove this theory. She doesn't seem to have problems relating to her cousins, and more importantly she tries to understand her mother's viewpoint and tries to justify her actions. Autism could explain tantrums and compulsive behaviors but doesn't explain delusions and hallucinations.

I think Maria's case is closer to a paranoid-type schizophrenia.
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Old 2009-04-09, 08:47   Link #827
Rias
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The "vessel" of the siesta sisters probably has nothing to do with the stakes; that is they are not the same thing. The identity of the vessel has been speculated: you can probably pick that up from the first half of ep4 if you read really carefully. If not, it should be more appearant near midgame and even more by looking at the TIPS at the end.

Second thing that might take away some of the confusion is that, the events of 1998 in ep4 are very likely to be a continuation of the events from the hiddden tea party of ep3. That is, ep4 has 3 "parts". Before 1986 (history), Rokkenjima 1986 (ep4), and 1998 (contuine from ep3).
Spoiler:


Third thing: don't stress over ep4's "fantasy" scenes too much. Many scenes in the first half are really just Maria/Ange's delusions.
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Old 2009-04-09, 09:15   Link #828
theacefrehley
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Rias View Post
The "vessel" of the siesta sisters probably has nothing to do with the stakes; that is they are not the same thing. The identity of the vessel has been speculated: you can probably pick that up from the first half of ep4 if you read really carefully. If not, it should be more appearant near midgame and even more by looking at the TIPS at the end.

Second thing that might take away some of the confusion is that, the events of 1998 in ep4 are very likely to be a continuation of the events from the hiddden tea party of ep3. That is, ep4 has 3 "parts". Before 1986 (history), Rokkenjima 1986 (ep4), and 1998 (contuine from ep3).
Spoiler:


Third thing: don't stress over ep4's "fantasy" scenes too much. Many scenes in the first half are really just Maria/Ange's delusions.
However their identity is a bit ambiguous
While it is quite obvious the connection with the bunnies, there's the winchester stuff that also seems to link to the siestas...
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Old 2009-04-09, 09:21   Link #829
Jan-Poo
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maybe that winchester connection is just mumbo jumbo... i mean they are also supposed to be at the service of arthur pendragon or something... what's the connection between a winchester and a knight of the round?
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Old 2009-04-09, 09:50   Link #830
izmosmolnar
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Spoiler for don't read if you are not interested in another pointless debate:

But of course like Ange learned from Okonogi in ep4, it's up to the viewers beliefs what she considers the truth.
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Old 2009-04-09, 10:16   Link #831
theacefrehley
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A line from Eva-b:

「そりゃあ、先代さまの使い古しの家具じゃ無理で当然ね。
私には私に相応しい、新しい家具じゃないと駄目よ。
私、義理で使ったけど。
元々、お古は嫌いなの。」 

It's obvious it'd be impossible with the worn out furniture from my predecessor
I must have new furniture suitable for me
I used them (stakes) out of duty, though.
From the beginning, I didn't want used stuff

Eva-b was using the stakes because there was a script to follow (the riddle of the portrait...)

To me Eva-b was only looking down at belphegor remains with disgust for her incompetence... To assume this ingredient thing... it's up to you...

As for the number of siestas, just read the TIPS about them...

Well
You're free to suppose what you want... But, like that, it only make things harder to match...
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Old 2009-04-09, 10:22   Link #832
izmosmolnar
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Quote:
Originally Posted by theacefrehley View Post
A line from Eva-b:

「そりゃあ、先代さまの使い古しの家具じゃ無理で当然ね。
私には私に相応しい、新しい家具じゃないと駄目よ。
私、義理で使ったけど。
元々、お古は嫌いなの。」 

It's obvious it'd be impossible with the worn out furniture from my predecessor
I must have new furniture suitable for me
I used them (stakes) out of duty, though.
From the beginning, I didn't want used stuff

Eva-b was using the stakes because there was a script to follow (the riddle of the portrait...)

To me Eva-b was only looking down at belphegor remains with disgust for her incompetence... To assume this ingredient thing... it's up to you...

As for the number of siestas, just read the TIPS about them...

Well
You're free to suppose what you want... But, like that, it only make things harder to match...
Yeah that's certainly true, but if I try to explain it other ways it makes even less sense to me (or it causes me to doubt earlier informations).
Well I certainly hope the answer arcs are going to have a logical explaination on all of these semi-irrevelant contradictions (depends on viewpoint of course).
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Old 2009-04-09, 12:02   Link #833
WhiteFrost
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Jan-Poo View Post
I also don't remember the vessel and ingredient thing , that wouldn't be the first time i forget something... however it looks that even ace doesn't remember that.



Uhm i don't think maria suffers from light form of autism, if that's what you imply. She does have some difficulties to make friends, but the very fact she clearly understands the emotions of other people disprove this theory. She doesn't seem to have problems relating to her cousins, and more importantly she tries to understand her mother's viewpoint and tries to justify her actions. Autism could explain tantrums and compulsive behaviors but doesn't explain delusions and hallucinations.

I think Maria's case is closer to a paranoid-type schizophrenia.

Ah, sorry about the confusion. My comment was a bit irrelevant but I just felt like pointing it out, I did not mean to offend anyone. I apologise for the bad choice of words.
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Old 2009-04-09, 13:50   Link #834
Jan-Poo
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ah not a problem at all ^^ knowing the characteristics of psychological disorders is certainly not common knowledge ;
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Old 2009-04-09, 14:00   Link #835
Kitsu
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Yeah, I also think that, since there are so many disorders that the time I first looked at them I always mixed them up xD especially personality disorders were hard to differ. I think even now I sometimes mix them up.
Also i think Maria isn't mentally ill in the beginning. The time she started talking to her toys and imagines that those are her friends was just a a normal reaction of lonely girl and no disorder. I think the traumatic experience in which Rosa destroyed those "friends" triggered the disorder.
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Old 2009-04-14, 17:36   Link #836
Hareoic
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Spoiler for Question about inconsistent recurring theme:
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Old 2009-04-14, 18:17   Link #837
Jan-Poo
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Spoiler for general, some higurashi spoiler too:
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Old 2009-04-14, 18:37   Link #838
Hareoic
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Jan-Poo View Post
Spoiler for general, some higurashi spoiler too:
I see your point. I should have gotten that sooner
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Old 2009-04-14, 19:47   Link #839
Marion
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Spoiler for Love:
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Old 2009-04-15, 09:40   Link #840
izmosmolnar
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Just a short question about something not so important again.
Spoiler for up to patched ep4:
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