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Old 2009-04-05, 23:33   Link #441
sakuraame
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Whether or not nobles are born in Soul Society was debated for a while in the "Birth, Aging and Death in Soul Society" thread too and the "Official Character Book SOULs" was brought up. According to the "SOULs" databook, which I do believe is written by Kubo Tite (his name is on the spine and also on the inside) and not an unofficial guide written by some randoms, Viz's translation about Seireitei reads,

"Seireitei, a peaceful place... the center of the Soul Society. The only people who are allowed to live here are Soul Reapers and the very few existing aristocrats. Aristocrats like the Kuchiki family and the Shihoin family are born in Seireitei. They live their entire lives within the Soul Society. They are refined and are born with strong spiritual powers." (Emphasis is mine)

The bit about all other souls reads like this,

"The human world is for the living. Dead souls gather in the Soul Society. These two worlds are parallel to each other and are two sides of the same coin. Families separated by death are rarely reunited in the Soul Society. People live nestled together like a family of strangers. Once a soul has spent a certain amount of time in the Soul Society, it is reborn into the human world."

From the wording it seems that souls can give birth. But it doesn't really explain why normal souls can't/don't give birth. From the wording it seems to insinuate that nobles are the only ones that can give birth. Maybe only spiritually strong people have the ability to create new souls? Or maybe one is just lucky to be born into nobility?
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Old 2009-04-06, 05:14   Link #442
Uncreativex
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Originally Posted by sakuraame View Post
Whether or not nobles are born in Soul Society was debated for a while in the "Birth, Aging and Death in Soul Society" thread too and the "Official Character Book SOULs" was brought up. According to the "SOULs" databook, which I do believe is written by Kubo Tite (his name is on the spine and also on the inside) and not an unofficial guide written by some randoms, Viz's translation about Seireitei reads,

"Seireitei, a peaceful place... the center of the Soul Society. The only people who are allowed to live here are Soul Reapers and the very few existing aristocrats. Aristocrats like the Kuchiki family and the Shihoin family are born in Seireitei. They live their entire lives within the Soul Society. They are refined and are born with strong spiritual powers." (Emphasis is mine)

The bit about all other souls reads like this,

"The human world is for the living. Dead souls gather in the Soul Society. These two worlds are parallel to each other and are two sides of the same coin. Families separated by death are rarely reunited in the Soul Society. People live nestled together like a family of strangers. Once a soul has spent a certain amount of time in the Soul Society, it is reborn into the human world."

From the wording it seems that souls can give birth. But it doesn't really explain why normal souls can't/don't give birth. From the wording it seems to insinuate that nobles are the only ones that can give birth. Maybe only spiritually strong people have the ability to create new souls? Or maybe one is just lucky to be born into nobility?
I though that people with strong spiritual power/Shinigami could reproduce, fitting with how they are the only souls that get hungry etc. So that not only nobles, but really any Shinigami that somehow reproduce can have children in Soul Society.
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Old 2009-04-06, 06:20   Link #443
Mr. DJ
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i guess this is one of those 'mr tite please explain this' things. personally i think procreation is possible in soul society.
I wouldn't put it past this series since you can still age after death.
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Old 2009-04-06, 06:58   Link #444
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^^ too true. TK likes to keep us guessing. like the random ichigo transformation...honestly was anyone even remotely close to guessing that??
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Old 2009-04-06, 11:27   Link #445
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Originally Posted by Uncreativex View Post
I though that people with strong spiritual power/Shinigami could reproduce, fitting with how they are the only souls that get hungry etc. So that not only nobles, but really any Shinigami that somehow reproduce can have children in Soul Society.
in the anime at least, Rukia says souls feel hungry but they can't starve to death.

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^^ too true. TK likes to keep us guessing. like the random ichigo transformation...honestly was anyone even remotely close to guessing that??
it was kind of obvious after he was revealed to be a Vizard, especially after the whole lizard transformation thing. Chekhov's Gun.
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Old 2009-04-06, 11:58   Link #446
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^^i meant his uber transformation. i think most people were expecting the lizard one...not a completely redone devil looking one
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Old 2009-04-06, 12:47   Link #447
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And just you wait till you see Isshin's kangaroo-transformation! (just getting the topic back to Isshin~)
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Old 2009-04-06, 13:54   Link #448
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ah yes indeed. im going to stick with my opinion of him being former 5th captain
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Old 2009-04-06, 15:33   Link #449
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Now that I came across this topic, it could be possible Isshin is the one to save Ichigo from himself. He is his son after all. Daddys gotta look after him.
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Old 2009-04-06, 17:47   Link #450
sakuraame
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ah yes indeed. im going to stick with my opinion of him being former 5th captain
Are you sure you mean a former 5th captain? Timeline wise, that would put him as captain before Shinji, since I think it's safe to assume that Aizen became captain after Shinji. Him being the former captain seems doubtful since his reiatsu wasn't recognized by Shinji. You would think that Shinji would recognize the reiatsu of the captain he was replacing. That and Isshin seems privy to info on Vizards, something that he probably wouldn't have if he wasn't a captain either during or directly after Shinji's time.

As others have pointed out, I think him being the 10th or 11th division captain is a lot more plausible. We know next to nothing of the former 10th division captain and the 11th division captain wasn't shown in flashbacks. Actually thinking about it, 11th division captain also has its roadblocks since the 11th division captain was killed by the current Kenpachi and if he died in SS he should have been reborn as a human and lost his memories about his time in SS. Urahara could have done his magic, but it just seems unnecessarily complicated.

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Now that I came across this topic, it could be possible Isshin is the one to save Ichigo from himself. He is his son after all. Daddys gotta look after him.
I actually hadn't thought about the possibility of Isshin coming in to save the day, but it just seems too Deus ex Machina to me. Since this arc seems to gather everyone, I figured that Isshin and Urahara would make their battle debut together. Urahara, and probably by extension Yoruichi, seems to be the only that knows about his real identity and thus his only real connection to SS and so grouping them together seems logical. Isshin popping up at this point would seem out of place in an arc populated by Ichigo and his friends. Isshin popping up would also disturb the flow of the current chapters.

Spoiler for recent manga chapters:
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Old 2009-04-06, 18:28   Link #451
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^^ holy craptastica you're right. Hitsuguya's division. my mistake. thanks for the correction!! i am incompetent...
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Old 2009-04-06, 18:56   Link #452
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Is it ever mentioned when Hitsugaya became Captain of 10th division?
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Old 2009-04-06, 19:07   Link #453
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^ i'm not sure if it says it specifically but during the flashbacks it seems fairly recently. it says he met matsumoto after hinamori left.it would seem that he became one fairly recently considering his age and inexperience in comparison with the other captains.
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Old 2009-04-07, 22:19   Link #454
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Originally Posted by sakuraame View Post
I actually hadn't thought about the possibility of Isshin coming in to save the day, but it just seems too Deus ex Machina to me. Since this arc seems to gather everyone, I figured that Isshin and Urahara would make their battle debut together. Urahara, and probably by extension Yoruichi, seems to be the only that knows about his real identity and thus his only real connection to SS and so grouping them together seems logical. Isshin popping up at this point would seem out of place in an arc populated by Ichigo and his friends. Isshin popping up would also disturb the flow of the current chapters.

Spoiler for recent manga chapters:
Actually, you know what I just thought of? I thought of how similar Isshin and Ichigo were. Isshin lost his powers and so did Ichigo. Ishhin has a possibly friendly relationship with a quincy and Ichigo has a relationship with a quincy that's the son of his fathers friend. Isshin wasn't recognized by even the Vizards who used to be shinigami and like Ichigo maybe won't show up on record.

This would support not only the SS King theory, but it would suggest a kind of group of friends like Ichigo's that that his father and Uryuu's father used to be apart of. This kind of thing has been shown to be in other anime as well, such as Naruto and many others.
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Old 2009-04-10, 04:52   Link #455
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For all we know Ichigo's mom might have been a powerless vasto lorde. I seriously doubt it but wouldn't be suprised if it was. Ichigo is a seriously unique specimen in any of the three worlds.

I wonder if Isshin willingly or unwillingly gave his powers up. Did he sacrifice or use his power up in some cause or event? Or did he just get punished and had his powers sealed?

There really doesn't seem to be much info on him at all.
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Old 2009-04-10, 21:04   Link #456
Chaos Zangetsu
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One thing we can say though is he knows about the Vizard, Aizen, and the Arrancar and Espada and also knows what's going on. He also has a connection with Urahara and the Qunicys. He shows this by what he said to Urahara and Uryu's father during the episode he apeared and regained his powers to kill Grand Fisher.

We also know that by how easy and simple is was for him to defeat Grand Fisher as opposed it was for even Hitsugaya and the others when they fought the Arrancar when they appeared with Grimmjow in Karakura town that Isshin is obviously stronger than Captain level(though Grand Fisher had just become an Arrancar and was so arrogant it'd be easy anyway) and trys to keep undetected. Therefore, if he was apart of Soul Society, he must've either been with the Royal Guard or the King himself. The fact that the Royal Guard would have to be the strongest Shinigami to protect the King supports this. Isshin was also way too wise in my opinion to be a normal Shinigami.
The Royal Guard would have to know the following things to protect the King effectively:
1. Any current threats and who/what they are.
2. Any potenial problem in Soul Society that could threaten the King eventually.
3. Any potenial allys and incoming members to the Royal Guard.
4. As much knowledge as possible that's not exclusively for the King.
5. A full knowing of what's going on in Soul Society and the World of the Living.

If Isshin used to be with the Royal Guard during Aizen's time as a lieutenant and could forsee what he was going to do this explain part of this except that unless he could see the future or see everwhere which is unlikely then Urahara must've kept him up-to-date on the situation the whole time and most likely gave the same info to Uryuu's father the whole time as well.

Therefore, this means that he was part of the Royal Guard or was the King, then left the King's dimension to the World of the Living because something happened there that made him lose his powers.

Last edited by Chaos Zangetsu; 2009-04-10 at 21:27.
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Old 2009-04-11, 16:40   Link #457
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We also know that by how easy and simple is was for him to defeat Grand Fisher as opposed it was for even Hitsugaya and the others when they fought the Arrancar when they appeared with Grimmjow in Karakura town that Isshin is obviously stronger than Captain level(though Grand Fisher had just become an Arrancar and was so arrogant it'd be easy anyway)
Grand Fisher was an arrancar, but he was still an ordinary hollow before that (just more dangerous than usual). He wasn't a menos unlike the arrancar Hitsugaya and the others fought so probably any seated officer could've beaten him without much trouble. Isshin's at least captain-level, but beating GF is certainly not proof that his strength exceeds that of other captains.

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Originally Posted by WhiteWings
For all we know Ichigo's mom might have been a powerless vasto lorde. I seriously doubt it but wouldn't be suprised if it was. Ichigo is a seriously unique specimen in any of the three worlds.
Er... I don't recall seeing a mask in the pictures Isshin kept of her.
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Old 2009-04-12, 01:33   Link #458
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I don't think Isshin was involved with hollows or anything, Ichigo's powers come from the unorthodox way in which he got them and not hereditary or anything.
Isshin definitely knows about the Quincy, since he and Ryuuken know each other for a long time and even have the same job in the real world. He defeated grand fisher easily because it was a pseudo-arrancar that any captain could defeat.
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Therefore, this means that he was part of the Royal Guard or was the King
that's still just a possibility, considering we know nothing about this royal guard besides its name and the fact that it's secret.
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Old 2009-04-12, 02:20   Link #459
sakuraame
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I don't think Isshin was involved with hollows or anything, Ichigo's powers come from the unorthodox way in which he got them and not hereditary or anything.
I'm not sure I follow what you mean by Isshin not being involved with hollows or anything. He is shown in shinigami garb and so I think that's it's safe to say that he's had his far share of hollow involvement. I mean, it was his job when he was an official shinigami. Yes, Ichigo's gained his powers from an unorthodox way, but I would assume that a large potential for spiritual power is hereditary. And having vast amounts of spiritual power would make one a candidate to undergo training to become a shinigami. If Ichigo had in a freak accident before Rukia showed up, I'm 100% sure that he would have been taken to the Shinigami Academy. Plus Zangetsu comments that Ichigo had his own shinigami powers lying dormant and they were awakened when Rukia transferred her powers to him (Ch. 63). Ichigo was born with shinigami powers, but obviously couldn't make use of them on his own since he's human.

I'm curious as to how Isshin knows Urahara and what their connection is. They obviously didn't leave Soul Society at the same time. I'm under the impression that they don't hang out together a lot, but that just might be that Kubo Tite doesn't have a lot of panels of them together. But they don't feel real buddy buddy to me. Urahara works in the background, but to me Isshin just feels like he's just hanging out in the background.

I'm also curious as to how Isshin and Ryuuken's met. They obviously have a long history together and seem to know each other's "secret" identities. I've read baseless theories about how Masaki was Ryuuken's sister and that's how they know each other. Circumstantial evidence at best, and even then it's a huge stretch.
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Old 2009-04-12, 19:54   Link #460
Chaos Zangetsu
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Grand Fisher was an arrancar, but he was still an ordinary hollow before that (just more dangerous than usual). He wasn't a menos unlike the arrancar Hitsugaya and the others fought so probably any seated officer could've beaten him without much trouble. Isshin's at least captain-level, but beating GF is certainly not proof that his strength exceeds that of other captains.
True that GF was truly ignorant and stupid, but back when Ichigo faced GF, Rukia said that all the shinigami who had faced GF died. Rukia was even afraid of GF and she was a seated officer. That would imply other seated officers hadn't survived against GF.

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I don't think Isshin was involved with hollows or anything, Ichigo's powers come from the unorthodox way in which he got them and not hereditary or anything.
Isshin definitely knows about the Quincy, since he and Ryuuken know each other for a long time and even have the same job in the real world. He defeated grand fisher easily because it was a pseudo-arrancar that any captain could defeat.
Isshin must've been involved with hollows sooner or later being the shinigami he is because that's the whole reason for shinigamis to exist according to Rukia way back in the first chapters. They hunt down hollows and they tranfer souls over to the soul society in order to keep balance between Soul Society and the human world.
Shinigami powers must be hereditary, because then how do you explain shinigamis getting their power? They all didn't all just fall into radioactive waste or get bitten by a spider like Spider Man. They would've had to been born with that power, because you can't just aquire it like a item in a convenience store. Ichigo got his power from Isshin plain and simple. The other powers that Orihime and Chad got were effects of Ichigo's power awakening or helping create powers within them, but they never got the powers themselves by doing something.
As I have said before, it may have been easy for captains but still according to what I said before, he was most likely a Royal Guard or the king way before the Vizard became Shinigamis. This would explain way Shinji never recognized a former captain. It is possible Isshin was a captain and could've left Soul Society, but it would've had to have been at least before Shinji and the other Vizard became shinigami because you'd think he would've remembered a captain's reiatsu. Currently only the Vizard and Ichigo knows what his reiatsu is like now except for the shinigami possibly still around since Isshin left who knew him in Soul Society.
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