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Old 2009-04-08, 15:41   Link #2901
Proto
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Your being an atheist in real life should really have nothing to do with your appreciation of a fictional story.
How so? True, emotional appreciation of any artistic form is all about empathy, about putting yourself in someone else's situation. However, it is next to impossible to put aside one's emotional, psychological and ideological baggage when doing so. Depending on the person you can expect differing levels of detachment, however it is irrational to ask for complete empathy and detachment. I know, since the religious/scientifical implications in Eureka 7 made me roll my atheist eyes more than once, even if it wasn't the case in Simoun.
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Old 2009-04-08, 19:13   Link #2902
WanderingKnight
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EDIT: Ep24 begins with Onashia telling Yun that she refused to choose her sex but was unable to become an eternal maiden and unable to go to another world, so she remained there as a penance. Dominura went to another world.
Would that be your interpretation of another world? As far as I'm concerned, they just went back in time. The betsu no sekai, as far as I recall, was the other sybillae's interpretation of their fate. This could be backed up by a missing piece of the puzzle I haven't completely figured out yet: What did exactly Dominura see inside the Simoun? Did she foresaw the fact that she was the one who brought it to that world?

And the refusal to choose gender strengthens the case even more, since Dominura is as unsure as Neviril about it throughout the whole series. She simply makes up her mind earlier, but arrives to the same answer (her relationship with Limone is key, Limone being much, much younger and becoming somewhat of an image to aspire to for Dominura). She is just unable to achieve what Neviril and Aaeru accomplished (the true eternal maiden). For refusing to choose her gender and her inability to reach an ethereal eternity, she becomes an outcast.

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How so?
I'm not saying you absolutely must not do it, I'm saying it just doesn't make much sense and will not help your enjoyment of the series, because the point of the series is not to force religious propaganda down your throat (neither was that Eureka Seven's case, either).
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Old 2009-04-08, 20:13   Link #2903
Kaoru Chujo
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Well, Wandering Knight, I like your interpretation of what Dominura sees in Limone. And I would prefer to believe that Onashia and Dominura are the same person. I'll keep working on it, lol.

They don't seem to me to look alike, either, but I haven't made a study of that, and time and suffering could change appearance. But when Yun spoke with Onashia in ep24, there was no hint from either of them that they had met outside the cavern, and Onashia seemed to imply that she had never strayed from the normal world. Yun said something about wanting to put the souls of her comrades to rest, so that could have been what she was doing when she held the cradle and said Dominura's name.
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Old 2009-04-08, 21:01   Link #2904
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They don't seem to me to look alike, either, but I haven't made a study of that, and time and suffering could change appearance.
Well, Onashia does have green hair (a bit faded, though). And she sports a similar lipstick, too
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Old 2009-04-10, 22:49   Link #2905
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Originally Posted by WanderingKnight View Post
Would that be your interpretation of another world? As far as I'm concerned, they just went back in time. The betsu no sekai, as far as I recall, was the other sybillae's interpretation of their fate. This could be backed up by a missing piece of the puzzle I haven't completely figured out yet: What did exactly Dominura see inside the Simoun? Did she foresaw the fact that she was the one who brought it to that world?

And the refusal to choose gender strengthens the case even more, since Dominura is as unsure as Neviril about it throughout the whole series. She simply makes up her mind earlier, but arrives to the same answer (her relationship with Limone is key, Limone being much, much younger and becoming somewhat of an image to aspire to for Dominura). She is just unable to achieve what Neviril and Aaeru accomplished (the true eternal maiden). For refusing to choose her gender and her inability to reach an ethereal eternity, she becomes an outcast.



I'm not saying you absolutely must not do it, I'm saying it just doesn't make much sense and will not help your enjoyment of the series, because the point of the series is not to force religious propaganda down your throat (neither was that Eureka Seven's case, either).
It's made pretty clear that Onashia wasn't able to become an eternal maiden. As much as it would be cool for her to be Dominura, it's highly doubtful.
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Old 2009-04-10, 23:18   Link #2906
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It's made pretty clear that Onashia wasn't able to become an eternal maiden. As much as it would be cool for her to be Dominura, it's highly doubtful.
I'm sorry, when did Dominura and Limone become eternal maidens? It's stated pretty solidly in the show that the only ones who were able to perform the Emerald Ri Maajon correctly were Aaeru and Neviril. Dominura clearly fails to perform the Ri Maajon correctly, and she clearly doesn't become an ethereal entity, either...
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Old 2009-04-11, 12:23   Link #2907
Kaoru Chujo
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I think WanderingKnight is right about that. Dominura/Limone almost but not quite succeeded, and went to the past ("another world," in my judgment) rather than becoming eternal.
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Old 2009-04-11, 12:31   Link #2908
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Originally Posted by WanderingKnight View Post
I'm sorry, when did Dominura and Limone become eternal maidens? It's stated pretty solidly in the show that the only ones who were able to perform the Emerald Ri Maajon correctly were Aaeru and Neviril. Dominura clearly fails to perform the Ri Maajon correctly, and she clearly doesn't become an ethereal entity, either...
Dominura and her Chor failed in their attempts at the Emerald Ri Maajon. Becoming an "eternal maiden" doesn't mean they became ethereal entities. It only means that they were able to journey to other timelines. Which we see as Rimone glimpses Aaeru and Neviril in their Simoun as they journey through the past.

The only way that these theories can be clearly confirmed though is if we ask the creators.
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Old 2009-04-11, 21:12   Link #2909
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Dominura and her Chor failed in their attempts at the Emerald Ri Maajon. Becoming an "eternal maiden" doesn't mean they became ethereal entities. It only means that they were able to journey to other timelines. Which we see as Rimone glimpses Aaeru and Neviril in their Simoun as they journey through the past.
Umm, no, I don't think so...

For one, the Ri Maajon performed by Limone and Dominura looked exactly like the one performed by Amuria. And it's stated quite clearly throughout the series that Amuria's was a failed Ri Maajon.

Secondly, Aaeru and Neviril do become ethereal entities. That's the whole point of their being eternal maidens--their existence is perpetuated in a plane completely removed from normal time and space. The clear cue for that is when it is shown that they appear at random at multiple locations, throughout many points in time--and it's symbolized by their final scene in the Arcus Prima, as it could be understood that time stood still for them (eternal maidens).

Thirdly, Dominura is clearly affected by the same disease Onashia has. Which means that, at the very least, she suffered a similar fate.

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The only way that these theories can be clearly confirmed though is if we ask the creators.
That's the easy way out of thinking. I can understand your not accepting Dominura as Onashia, but to say that they actually managed to perform the Ri Maajon correctly renders the whole story and the value of what Neviril and Aaeru achieved meaningless.

PS: I apologize if I sometimes come off as a bit harsh, but I loved this series very dearly, and the actual themes at stake struck a deep chord in my emotional self... so I'm kinda put off when I feel someone is misunderstanding them so greatly. I feel not understanding the uniqueness of what Aaeru and Neviril achieved is ignoring the constantly present theme of the battle between childhood and maturity, between one's innermost desires and the others' expectations... In short, the battle between oneself and the rest of the world. It's an extremely recurrent theme in the history of art, but it's handled in such a brilliant manner in this series that I sometimes have the stupid and selfish idea that anyone not understanding it "correctly" is in actuality hurting it.

So I apologize once more if I sound a bit angry at times.
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Old 2009-04-11, 23:58   Link #2910
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Originally Posted by WanderingKnight View Post
Umm, no, I don't think so...

For one, the Ri Maajon performed by Limone and Dominura looked exactly like the one performed by Amuria. And it's stated quite clearly throughout the series that Amuria's was a failed Ri Maajon.

Secondly, Aaeru and Neviril do become ethereal entities. That's the whole point of their being eternal maidens--their existence is perpetuated in a plane completely removed from normal time and space. The clear cue for that is when it is shown that they appear at random at multiple locations, throughout many points in time--and it's symbolized by their final scene in the Arcus Prima, as it could be understood that time stood still for them (eternal maidens).

Thirdly, Dominura is clearly affected by the same disease Onashia has. Which means that, at the very least, she suffered a similar fate.



That's the easy way out of thinking. I can understand your not accepting Dominura as Onashia, but to say that they actually managed to perform the Ri Maajon correctly renders the whole story and the value of what Neviril and Aaeru achieved meaningless.

PS: I apologize if I sometimes come off as a bit harsh, but I loved this series very dearly, and the actual themes at stake struck a deep chord in my emotional self... so I'm kinda put off when I feel someone is misunderstanding them so greatly. I feel not understanding the uniqueness of what Aaeru and Neviril achieved is ignoring the constantly present theme of the battle between childhood and maturity, between one's innermost desires and the others' expectations... In short, the battle between oneself and the rest of the world. It's an extremely recurrent theme in the history of art, but it's handled in such a brilliant manner in this series that I sometimes have the stupid and selfish idea that anyone not understanding it "correctly" is in actuality hurting it.

So I apologize once more if I sound a bit angry at times.
Arguing over the Internet is really quite unproductive. I'm not saying that Aaeru and Neviril didn't journey through time and space but I don't believe "ethereal entity" is the correct term for them. Yes, time did stand still for them in a sense, I just disagree with the wording. As for Dominura/Rimone nobody will ever be certain but one fact is clear: Dominura was indeed afflicted with the same "disease" Onashia had. It's good to know that you love the series so much.
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Old 2009-04-12, 00:25   Link #2911
deathcurse
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I find the term "eternal maiden" very interesting, and after reading some of the other posts I find myself still wondering about what it really means. Does being an eternal maiden mean that they never physically age? But that doesn't make sense, since relatively, they would have to age, even if they pop in and out of time eventually they'll age physically.

All the sibyllae age in the show, some of them past the regular age limit of 17 in the show, but are still considered to be the same as the younger girls since none of them have visited the Spring and chosen a gender. And with Dominura as an example, clearly the physical age of the sibyllae doesn't matter when it comes to flying simoun. Technically, aren't Aaeru and Neviril just prolonged versions of Dominura (aging slowly because they are in and out of time but just basically old sybillae?)

So does it mean that they stay eternal maidens emotionally? As in never mature, take responsibilities, etc. But then you get characters like Onashia, Limone and Dominura.

Aside: I personally consider Limone and Dominura to have accomplished the same thing that Aaeru and Neviril did, completing the Emerald Ri Maajon and travelling through time as sibyllae forever. I know that some people disagree, this is just my interpretation.

Those three characters did take on responsibilities: Onashia as guardian of the Spring, Limone and Dominura as instructors of the past people about the Simouns. So can they really be considered "eternal maidens" aka immature girls who haven't become adults?

So both the meanings of "eternal" and "maiden" seem to be very subjective, and so to reiterate my previous question, what exactly defines an "eternal maiden"? And do any of the characters actually become these maidens, or do many of them accomplish it?
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Old 2009-04-12, 15:14   Link #2912
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I find the term "eternal maiden" very interesting, and after reading some of the other posts I find myself still wondering about what it really means. Does being an eternal maiden mean that they never physically age? But that doesn't make sense, since relatively, they would have to age, even if they pop in and out of time eventually they'll age physically.
It doesn't matter. What does really matter is what it symbolizes: The defiance to stand up for their own selfish desires, and the willingness to remain as a child--which is something that goes beyond physical appearance.

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So both the meanings of "eternal" and "maiden" seem to be very subjective, and so to reiterate my previous question, what exactly defines an "eternal maiden"? And do any of the characters actually become these maidens, or do many of them accomplish it?
The only ones that accomplish it are Aaeru and Neviril. The correct execution of the Emerald Ri Maajon is the symbolic key to achieving such a state. Neither Dominura, Onashia nor Limone manage to perform the Emerald Ri Maajon correctly. Onashia (Dominura) is effectively punished for her defiance, and becomes an eternal outcast, until Yun relieves her of her burden. Aaeru and Neviril are the only ones able to defy society and the pre-established rules without suffering punishment in return.

The only "missing" character in the puzzle is Limone, since no clue is given as to what happens to her during her existence in the past. It's possible, since she was very young when she performed the Ri Maajon, that Dominura, being already an "old" Sybillae, symbolically carried both her burden and Limone's, or one could at least understand the course of events that way.

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Arguing over the Internet is really quite unproductive.
That's equivalent to dismissing discussion altogether, which doesn't make much sense if you're saying it on an online forum dedicated to discussion.

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As for Dominura/Rimone nobody will ever be certain but one fact is clear: Dominura was indeed afflicted with the same "disease" Onashia had.
But what do you make of it? What do you interpret? If you stay only with what you see, then half the series is devoid of its meaning.
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Old 2009-04-12, 18:34   Link #2913
Kaoru Chujo
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Except for the identity of Onashia and Dominura, I think I agree with a lot of what WanderingKnight is saying. I think Neviril and Aaeru became some kind of ethereal (i.e., non-physical, in some way) beings who appear occasionally to the ordinary world, but who are actually eternal, as well as eternally maidens.

I think Dominura, Onashia, and probably Limone, are maidens, but will not live forever, as NeviAaeru will. Not that that is said explicitly, as far as I can recall, it's just my inference.

And I don't think this is arguing. It might have devolved in that direction at one point, but it seems to me that we are all respecting each other's views and trying to learn. That's discussion rather than argument. Especially with that nice little unnecessary apology from WK.
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Old 2009-04-12, 21:15   Link #2914
deathcurse
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Originally Posted by WanderingKnight View Post
The only ones that accomplish it are Aaeru and Neviril.
I apologize if this has been discussed before, but where in the anime has it been absolutely determined that only Aaeru and Neviril accomplished the "true" Emerald Ri Maajon? I agree that Onashia and Dominura failed, or didn't accomplish the Emerald when they were with Chor Dextra (odd, since Amuria's failed Emerald caused and explosion and so did the other Chor Dextra members, so why are these two (and Aaeru's grandfather) still alive? Unless they just didn't manage to do it?) but nothing clearly states that Limone and Dominura didn't succeed.

In the end of the anime, you can see Aaeru and Neviril popping in and out of time. And Limone and Dominura are about to leave their "past" time to go to other times/worlds. To me, this indicates that they too are doing the same thing that Aaeru and Neviril are doing, and so that they also accomplished the Emerald. Of course, you could disagree with my interpretation.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Kaoru Chujo
I think Dominura, Onashia, and probably Limone, are maidens, but will not live forever, as NeviAaeru will. Not that that is said explicitly, as far as I can recall, it's just my inference.
That's an interesting idea I didn't think of, I'll have to think on that.
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Old 2009-04-12, 21:37   Link #2915
Fweakin
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I apologize if this has been discussed before, but where in the anime has it been absolutely determined that only Aaeru and Neviril accomplished the "true" Emerald Ri Maajon? I agree that Onashia and Dominura failed, or didn't accomplish the Emerald when they were with Chor Dextra (odd, since Amuria's failed Emerald caused and explosion and so did the other Chor Dextra members, so why are these two (and Aaeru's grandfather) still alive? Unless they just didn't manage to do it?) but nothing clearly states that Limone and Dominura didn't succeed.

In the end of the anime, you can see Aaeru and Neviril popping in and out of time. And Limone and Dominura are about to leave their "past" time to go to other times/worlds. To me, this indicates that they too are doing the same thing that Aaeru and Neviril are doing, and so that they also accomplished the Emerald. Of course, you could disagree with my interpretation.



That's an interesting idea I didn't think of, I'll have to think on that.
I think part of the key lays with the fact that both Limone and Dominura have shown to have aged, which is not true of Neviril and Aaeru. And by its very definition fails to make them "eternal maidens". I think they partially succeeded, however, but the fact that Dominura begins to sparkle further reaffirms this fact to me.

Yes, I am of the opinion that Dominura and Onashia are one and the same, and I feel that the story is much more complete to me that way. I have been of this opinion since my first viewing, and would think that Limone, Dominura and Onashia's stories would have appeared a little directionless and lifeless without the added "reveal" at the end. Otherwise I question the screentime spent on the lot of them. That, and I cannot find another explanation for why Yun says Dominura's name randomly in the Spring.

I need to place an addendum here: I really, really love all of the discussions that take place in this thread. Other than a few exceptions, intelligent discussion (again something I find hard to find at times) can seemingly be carried out without someone getting defensive or taking disagreements with points of view personally. I come back to this thread when I find my brain liquefying from other "<insert character name here> izzz so kawaiii!!!11oneoneroflcopter" discussions. So keep it up everyone.
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Old 2009-04-13, 15:29   Link #2916
WanderingKnight
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And Limone and Dominura are about to leave their "past" time to go to other times/worlds.
Hmm? I really see nothing of the sort mentioned in the anime at all. As far as I can see they were about to see new sybillae off. But I see nothing that suggest they were about to go to another timeline at all...

And the strongest argument is probably the one presented by Fweakin, coupled with the fact that the execution of the Ri Maajon by Limone and Dominura is exactly like the one performed by Amuria, and entirely different from the one Aaeru and Neviril executed.
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Old 2009-04-15, 01:17   Link #2917
Kaoru Chujo
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Hmm? I really see nothing of the sort mentioned in the anime at all. As far as I can see they were about to see new sybillae off. But I see nothing that suggest they were about to go to another timeline at all....
About halfway through ep26, Limone comes in to Dominura, who is lying in bed, and talks about the girls about to try the Rimaajon. Dominura asks if she wants to fly again and Limone says yes, but that Dominura is her pair and if she doesn't want to fly, Limone won't. After Limone leaves, Dominura says that she will do the Emerald Rimaajon for Limone's sake.

Later in the ep, Limone is in the woods with the other girl who wants to be her pair when they catch a glimpse of what is probably Aaeru and Neviril's simoun in a shaft of light among the clouds. Then Dominura appears and asks Limone what kind of sky she wants to go to. Then off they go happily together through the woods, leaving some sparklies of decay-dust behind.

I think that makes it pretty clear that they will take off again, Dominura's state of decay permitting, and try the Emerald and either succeed or go to another time/place.

As for Yun mentioning Dominura's name, it could be as you say, but I was thinking it could also be just that Dominura is a lost comrade, one of those whom Yun wants to stay close to. And Onashia says how happy she is to have someone come and hear her story of never having gone to the spring. If she were really Dominura, I think she would speak to Yun in a different way, since Yun already knows another part of the story. I see the sparkling decay-dust as simply what happens to maidens who refuse to go to the spring. They turn gradually to dust.

On the other hand, Onashia mentions that the Spring is in two place/times. Dominura could have eventually found her way to one of them, after Limone was lost, and then found herself fluctuating between the one and the other, as Onashia.
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Old 2009-04-16, 22:25   Link #2918
Taigyth
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It doesn't matter. What does really matter is what it symbolizes: The defiance to stand up for their own selfish desires, and the willingness to remain as a child--which is something that goes beyond physical appearance.



The only ones that accomplish it are Aaeru and Neviril. The correct execution of the Emerald Ri Maajon is the symbolic key to achieving such a state. Neither Dominura, Onashia nor Limone manage to perform the Emerald Ri Maajon correctly. Onashia (Dominura) is effectively punished for her defiance, and becomes an eternal outcast, until Yun relieves her of her burden. Aaeru and Neviril are the only ones able to defy society and the pre-established rules without suffering punishment in return.

The only "missing" character in the puzzle is Limone, since no clue is given as to what happens to her during her existence in the past. It's possible, since she was very young when she performed the Ri Maajon, that Dominura, being already an "old" Sybillae, symbolically carried both her burden and Limone's, or one could at least understand the course of events that way.



That's equivalent to dismissing discussion altogether, which doesn't make much sense if you're saying it on an online forum dedicated to discussion.



But what do you make of it? What do you interpret? If you stay only with what you see, then half the series is devoid of its meaning.
Well, arguing and discussing are different things altogether but I digress. To me, the achievement of the Emerald Ri Maajon is the ability to travel through time and space which both Aaeru/Neviril, Dominura/Rimone and possibly Amuria were able to do. As seen at the ending when Rimone suggests travelling again to Dominura. Dominura/Rimone most likely aged due to their staying in one timeline for a while as Aaeru/Neviril wandered.

I still hold that all of them are physical beings, yet they achieved something the others didn't. The ability to escape aging by travelling through time/space. I suppose in that sense they could be considered "ethereal". The idea of Dominura being Onashia just seems off to me going from certain things she's said and the way she acts around Yun.
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Old 2009-04-17, 18:06   Link #2919
anselfir
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the time traveling thing is rather important for the show's take on religion and its socialization.

if limone et al was the initiator of the simoun practice/cult, then the life of the sibylla and the entire country is a chilling, if not tragic reflection in the anthropological vein. the life of the pilots and their beliefs will not be appreciated as simple ideals, but rather beauty in an ironical world.

if they simply escaped to happiness eternal, it will be a confirmation of their original understanding of the simoun craft. the entire belief system surrounding simoun and their kingdom would not be undermined, and that important stream will be in limbo.

the former is the correct scenario. it resolves the show's social and political commentary full circle, while introduce its spirituality inoffensively.


simoun's position on religion is a bit complicated, perhaps unique to the orient. there is quite clearly a critique of organized religion and quasi-religious social conventions and organizations, but there is also an affirmative spiritual reality. if anything, the show resembles japan's version of scifi.

all of these are pretty obvious, not going to explain more.
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Old 2009-04-19, 00:59   Link #2920
porous_shield
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Wanderingknight, I understand your interpretation of Simoun but I don't think I explained my side very well. Let me try again.

I think the eternal maiden state is to be merged with the time stream...to be everywhen. The other girls (and now guys) seeing Aaeru and Nevrille's craft was symbolic of their being everywhere. This series has used symbolism before so it's reasonable to assume some of what we see is symbolic more than literal.

When I saw that final scene of Aaeru and Nevrille dancing it broke my heart and I couldn't really figure out why. I've been trying to figure out why I had such an emotional reaction to an anime that a friend of mine said had a happy ending. This is the best that I could do.

Being Atheist I can't rationally accept that being an eternal maiden is some sort of heaven. At best it's merged with the timestream, become one with their "deity." At worse, they are simply gone....just gone. They have become eternal maiden because they will not become adults and in everyone's memory be maiden for eternity. Also, because of the war and how it changed things, they were the last siblya. The last dance is symbolic of how short adolescence is and how abruptly it ends.

What really got me puzzled is the last segment of the last episode where everyone is saying why they wanted the girls to do the ri-marjon. It made me imagine time itself as a giant wall and the girls doing the emerald ri0marjon grafittied themselves to it saying "we were here."

With Dominura, I got the impression that when they dismantled the Simoun that she saw that she was responsible for everything and the realization of what will happen to her. Onashia does remind me of Dominura and they were both members of Chor Dextera...so I don't know how that would work out unless they are the same person.

Why did their emerald Ri-Marjon fail the first time?

Why was that man near the end so adament that everyone go to the spring? Was it because it was mandatory in the country he came from (the soldier that Aaeru cuts the hands off of said in their country it was done at birth) or was it because he wanted to dismantle what he considered the military of their country by taking away their fliers (makes sense if the Simoun were such a pest).
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