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Old 2009-03-29, 23:00   Link #1041
Guernsey
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Is Japan really collectivist? I do see a lot of collectivist themes in anime where everyone has a nakama and they protect their frineds, family and even their enemies from being attacked by someone but is this true of any Japanese culture?
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Old 2009-03-29, 23:12   Link #1042
Vexx
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Guernsey View Post
Is Japan really collectivist? I do see a lot of collectivist themes in anime where everyone has a nakama and they protect their frineds, family and even their enemies from being attacked by someone but is this true of any Japanese culture?
It is "generally true" of all Japanese culture both personal, social, educational, and corporate (many of the large corporations really derive from very old powerful clans and their allies).

That isn't to say that individuals don't grab for power or backstab.... but thats the exceptional situation. Even the otaku, fashionistas, and yakuza tend to aggregate into groups with strict codes of behavior and forms of dress.
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Old 2009-03-30, 01:17   Link #1043
yezhanquan
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Originally Posted by Ryuou View Post

Maybe you're mixing up bishoujo with just shoujo. Of which Shakugan no Shana is not one. Chobits and Toradora! could be argued as being shoujo due to the story style and creators behind them, but they're aren't like your normal shoujo titles.
Personally, I look at Chobits as seinen, because the underlying issues of the series are rather serious, if you put enough thought into them. For Toradora, maybe seinen-lite. Underneath the fun, there are again many issues which are addressed seriously.
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Last edited by yezhanquan; 2009-03-30 at 01:34.
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Old 2009-03-30, 01:26   Link #1044
Vexx
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Aye, both Chobits and Toradora are just a couple of the many examples of "just because a particular publisher of X genre distributes it doesn't mean it is going to follow the X pattern".
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Old 2009-03-30, 01:36   Link #1045
yezhanquan
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I generally don't look at targeted demographics based on the magazine/author, but on the story itself.
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Old 2009-03-30, 02:44   Link #1046
Vexx
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So do I... but I end up in the wierdest arguments with obsessive "it came from this publisher ergo it MUST be X" people where X is shounen usually....
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Old 2009-04-11, 11:42   Link #1047
sa547
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Quote:
Originally Posted by bhl88 View Post
Spoiler:


Ambassadors of Cute, from left: actress Shizuka Fujioka, Yu Kimura, center, and Misako Aoki pose during a news conference at the Foreign Ministry on Thursday. In a bid to raise its international profile, Tokyo has appointed these three young women as cultural envoys because they represent Japanís long-running craze for all things cute. Tsutomu Nakagawa, the head of the cultural affairs division, said their role will be to speak at cultural events such as a Japan Expo to be held in Paris in July.


Mixed replies from + to negative:
- Cute (I pick X)
- lol Japan is full of weird ****
Sorry for dredging this back in, but this time that trio showed up in a program (called "My Kawaii" -- darn, I'm not really sure on titles) on NHK about two hours ago. Can't guess whether to laugh or cry.
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Old 2009-04-11, 11:53   Link #1048
aohige
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Vexx View Post
So do I... but I end up in the wierdest arguments with obsessive "it came from this publisher ergo it MUST be X" people where X is shounen usually....
The problem is when you're mixing genre and marketing categories.

If you want to categorize story X to be a romantic comedy, that's perfectly fine.
But when using phrases such as "shounen", "shoujo", or "seinen", you're delving into marketing categories.
Whether you agree with it or not from the content, these categories are important in both recognition by readers, and marketing.

You can argue all you want that "manga X" has the usual trait of a shoujo manga, and insist on calling it shoujo manga... but if the manga was published under shounen manga magazine, it WILL be categorized a shounen manga, in both placement in the bookstores, online shops, tankoubon locations, etc. Calling it otherwise simply confuses others who wants to get into the series, locate it, or learn about it.

Imagine you telling a friend that "Denei-shoujo" is a great shoujo manga, and he/she should read it.
He/she then goes into a bookstore, and cannot locate it under any shoujo manga sections.
He/she then asks the bookstore employee, and the employee luckly had knowledge of the manga, and takes him/her to the shounen Jump tankoubon section.
At this point, that person will be utterly confused. And perhaps wasted a lot of time, and possibly resulting in small loss of your credibility.

The best option is, obviously, to start out describing the manga as "It's a shounen manga, but with many traits of a shoujo romance manga. It's great, you'd like it."

Now, calling it "bittersweet romance story" or whatever would be perfectly fine, as it's a genre defined by your views of the content.
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Old 2009-04-11, 12:08   Link #1049
Yukinokesshou
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Quote:
Originally Posted by aohige View Post
The problem is when you're mixing genre and marketing categories.

If you want to categorize story X to be a romantic comedy, that's perfectly fine.
But when using phrases such as "shounen", "shoujo", or "seinen", you're delving into marketing categories.
Whether you agree with it or not from the content, these categories are important in both recognition by readers, and marketing.
Good point. I agree that when it comes to communication, it's best to leave marketing categories alone lest you end up confusing someone.

In theory, however, the opinion expressed by many of us non-Japanese here is that the typical public perception of those marketing categories in Japan is quite ridiculous. There's obviously no harm in assigning a label to something. However, when it comes to point that certain people don't want to be caught dead reading certain things just because of the label (and regardless of actual content)... either the marketing concept is far too effective or the society is far too restrictive.

Quote:
The best option is, obviously, to start out describing the manga as "It's a shounen manga, but with many traits of a shoujo romance manga. It's great, you'd like it."
Agreed. That's an excellent way to put it, especially when you're trying to get someone out of the "I'm a shoujo so I must read shoujo" hole
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Old 2009-04-11, 12:31   Link #1050
aohige
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Yukinokesshou View Post
In theory, however, the opinion expressed by many of us non-Japanese here is that the typical public perception of those marketing categories in Japan is quite ridiculous. There's obviously no harm in assigning a label to something. However, when it comes to point that certain people don't want to be caught dead reading certain things just because of the label (and regardless of actual content)... either the marketing concept is far too effective or the society is far too restrictive.
No, it makes perfect sense.
Otherwise, how are the mere employees supposed to organize the bookshelves?
Are they required to know the content of each and every book? That's impossible.
Or are they supposed to be organized under some category based on content that the bookstore manager set?
If that happened, Jump manga and Hana to Yume manga would be all mixed together in a mess on the shelf, and total nightmare for anyone to organize.
Not to mention it being diffrent from store to store, causing hell of a lot of confusion among the buyers.

Just like when you walk into... say, Fry's Electronics or Wal-mart, to buy DVD or CD.
Regardless of whether you agree with a title to be a "comedy" or "action", it's gonna be under a certain category. Otherwise, it'd be total chaos and mess.
It's the exact same thing.
You don't like the fact that Red Hot Chilli Peppers album was categorized under Rock when you feel it's Pop? Well, tough, it's gotta go somewhere.

The problem is, genre based on content is an extremly fuzzy thing, with almost no certainty or uniformality.
EVERYONE's perception is diffrent, and because of this, it's not a good idea to go by when categorizing mediums.
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Old 2009-04-11, 13:05   Link #1051
Yukinokesshou
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Originally Posted by aohige View Post
No, it makes perfect sense.
Otherwise, how are the mere employees supposed to organize the bookshelves?
Are they required to know the content of each and every book? That's impossible.
Or are they supposed to be organized under some category based on content that the bookstore manager set?
If that happened, Jump manga and Hana to Yume manga would be all mixed together in a mess on the shelf, and total nightmare for anyone to organize.
Not to mention it being diffrent from store to store, causing hell of a lot of confusion among the buyers. [...]

EVERYONE's perception is diffrent, and because of this, it's not a good idea to go by when categorizing mediums.
No no... you got me wrong . I'm not saying that the categorisation system is wrong. I'm not saying that the existing labels should be replaced either. They're fine as they are and, as you emphasised, are an efficient and standardised way of sorting titles.

I was pointing my finger at the public perception of these genres: people in Japan take them too literally. The problem is not with the labels; it's with how they are treated: not only for reference or categorisation, but as an indication of what one should read. Outside Japan, where there's not so much of a "shoujo should read shoujo, shounen should read shounen" mentality, titles have a lot more cross-demographic appeal. That's what I was getting at and sorry for confusing you

This was probably the most important part of my previous post, so I'll restate it here, with my key points in bold:

Quote:
Originally Posted by Yukinokesshou
There's obviously no harm in assigning a label to something. However, when it comes to point that certain people don't want to be caught dead reading certain things just because of the label (and regardless of actual content)... either the marketing concept is far too effective or the society is far too restrictive.
To look at things from a different perspective, my argument would be exactly the same if Japan were to go by a "romantic comedy", "action", etc. categorisation system and society decreed that "only girls should read romantic comedy" (okay, don't pounce at me for this example. I'll admit it's a bad one but it's just for hypothetical purposes...). It all goes back to the "square pegs in square holes" concept that Vexx was talking about earlier in this thread.

Last edited by Yukinokesshou; 2009-04-11 at 13:26.
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Old 2009-04-11, 15:00   Link #1052
Vexx
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aye, I understand the categorization for purposes of stocking and shelving --- and that certain publishers are labeled by those categories... but as stated by Yukinokesshou - I'll encounter people or posters who won't touch a lot of good works simply because they aren't labeled shounen (or vice versa) by the publisher and they give others a hard time who do. This is sad...
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Old 2009-04-11, 21:33   Link #1053
Terrestrial Dream
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Which sports is more popular in Japan? Baseball or soccer? Japan won the WBC twice and have many famous player in MLB. But in soccer there was success of Japanese player like Nakata who won the Serie A with Roma and Nakamura, who won the SPL player of the year and SPL, and 2002 WC success. Looking at it both sports should be very popular in Japan but I don't know which one is more popular than other.
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Old 2009-04-12, 02:22   Link #1054
Mystique
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Originally Posted by Terrestrial Dream View Post
Which sports is more popular in Japan? Baseball or soccer? Japan won the WBC twice and have many famous player in MLB. But in soccer there was success of Japanese player like Nakata who won the Serie A with Roma and Nakamura, who won the SPL player of the year and SPL, and 2002 WC success. Looking at it both sports should be very popular in Japan but I don't know which one is more popular than other.
Sadly baseball.
Methinks America and Japan are the only two countries in the world that take it on a major ass level, especially nationally.
Football has the world cup and while Japan did pretty well in... 02 was it when they hosted it with S Korea, both America and Japan aren't as strong nor probably passionate about it...
Well, Japan more so then America definitely.
But I'm sure baseball enthuiasts all know about 'Ichiro'. The coverage baseball gets over here in the back of the newspapers completely shadows football unless its the World Cup or something (once every 4 years though...)

It's amusing when I came here and people looked at me thinking i surely must have known something about baseball.
Until I tell them I'm from UK and aside from America and Japan, don't look to Europeans much for things concerning baseball, lol.
I understand it, it's not too different from something we have over here called 'Rounders', but Japan wise, I'd go with baseball.

One of those US-Japan culture things
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Old 2009-04-12, 07:07   Link #1055
Circular Logic
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Originally Posted by Mystique View Post
It's amusing when I came here and people looked at me thinking i surely must have known something about baseball.
Until I tell them I'm from UK and aside from America and Japan, don't look to Europeans much for things concerning baseball, lol.
I understand it, it's not too different from something we have over here called 'Rounders', but Japan wise, I'd go with baseball.
Mm, I remember when I said that I'd never seen a baseball game, live or on TV in my life, everyone went . And then double the wtf factor when I tried to mention cricket or rugby.

Baseball's ridiculously popular in Japan; the amount of media time Ichiro gets is staggering (and annoying). And let's not get started on the WBC
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Old 2009-04-12, 08:42   Link #1056
Terrestrial Dream
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Originally Posted by Mystique View Post
Sadly baseball.
Methinks America and Japan are the only two countries in the world that take it on a major ass level, especially nationally.
Football has the world cup and while Japan did pretty well in... 02 was it when they hosted it with S Korea, both America and Japan aren't as strong nor probably passionate about it...
Well, Japan more so then America definitely.
But I'm sure baseball enthuiasts all know about 'Ichiro'. The coverage baseball gets over here in the back of the newspapers completely shadows football unless its the World Cup or something (once every 4 years though...)

It's amusing when I came here and people looked at me thinking i surely must have known something about baseball.
Until I tell them I'm from UK and aside from America and Japan, don't look to Europeans much for things concerning baseball, lol.
I understand it, it's not too different from something we have over here called 'Rounders', but Japan wise, I'd go with baseball.

One of those US-Japan culture things
Huh, I thought British called baseball rounders. never realized it was different sports.


Quote:
Originally Posted by Circular Logic View Post
Mm, I remember when I said that I'd never seen a baseball game, live or on TV in my life, everyone went . And then double the wtf factor when I tried to mention cricket or rugby.

Baseball's ridiculously popular in Japan; the amount of media time Ichiro gets is staggering (and annoying). And let's not get started on the WBC
If Ichiro is that popular then what about soccer player like Nakamura? Does he get certain amount of media coverage?
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Old 2009-04-12, 10:34   Link #1057
SeijiSensei
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Major League Baseball has already come to the conclusion that it's best chance to expand its market is overseas. Japan is one of the prime marketing targets. That article contains a photo gallery that includes this photo of a "cosplaying" couple rooting for the Hanshin Tigers.

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Old 2009-04-13, 07:30   Link #1058
ZephyrLeanne
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Terrestrial Dream View Post
Which sports is more popular in Japan? Baseball or soccer? Japan won the WBC twice and have many famous player in MLB. But in soccer there was success of Japanese player like Nakata who won the Serie A with Roma and Nakamura, who won the SPL player of the year and SPL, and 2002 WC success. Looking at it both sports should be very popular in Japan but I don't know which one is more popular than other.
Baseball. By far. US sat here for 10 years, and kept its army bases here for another 30. And all our soccer players AND TEAMS seem to be moving out to Singapore. Like for example, Albirex Niigata.
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Old 2009-04-16, 13:43   Link #1059
Nerroth
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I just found this on YouTube - a glimpse or few of one of the other cultures one may find in Japan.











Man, I really need to go to Aynu Mosir...
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Old 2009-04-24, 00:39   Link #1060
Vexx
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Okay, I'm a relatively new player of Shogi but I thought this was really cool/pretty:

http://mdn.mainichi.jp/photospecials/graph/chess/

LARPing Shogi (like the SCA and other groups sometimes LARP chess).

The outfits are great --- colorful and it was a beautiful day it seems. The cherry trees made a great backdrop to the field.
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