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Old 2009-04-12, 10:58   Link #61
dfens
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I'm sorry it's never going to be big, like everyone thinks or hope it will be.

Most anime fans I know are poor and can't afford another bill at the end of the month or they are cheap. Why pay good money when you can find it for free and only have to pay your regular internet bill.

Anime could be as low as 1 dollar a episode on DVD and most of my friends or etc sill wouldn't pay it.

Plus the fact that CR doesn't now and probably will never license every show out of japan, even if they show it with in a short time of airing. Fan subbers can have a episode out subbed within a matter of what 12 hours or so.

Or what if your a subscriber and the show you really want to watch is not on their site. I'd be pissed and wonder what the hell I'm paying for. And if I'm paying it better be the best quality humanly possible for download. Which I doubt is happening.

Take a look at this seasons new shows. I'm not really interested in any of them, I can't watch every show released and I don't want to. Why would anyone pay good money to watch X number of shows and pay a flat rate fee for all of them when they only watch 1,2, or maybe even none.

Every DVD I bought which is a lot is because I saw the show fan subbed liked it, and bought it day of release. It could be the same price as in japan and I still pay it. Unfortunately most fans I've met and talked to once they seen it, they'll never buy it.

No matter what they do it's going to be pirated on the internet, it's a idea to earn extra income when normally they get nothing. But it's up to them if all the effort makes them enough profit for all the headache involved. I can imagine them just barely breaking even.

I tried CR one time and it sucked. They were showing shows that I knew for a fact that they don't have a license too, and they quality and speeds were crap. I think I'll stick to torrent and the other streaming sites that are much better and more important till the show is for sale, absolutely free.
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Old 2009-04-12, 11:55   Link #62
Tofusensei
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Quote:
Originally Posted by dfens View Post
Why pay good money when you can find it for free and only have to pay your regular internet bill.
...
Why would anyone pay good money to watch X number of shows and pay a flat rate fee for all of them when they only watch 1,2, or maybe even none.
You know the answer to that... Because it's the right thing to do

This is honestly why the industry folks have issues with fansubbers. We've created a culture of "we want it free, we want it now".

The issue is it's difficult to make money giving away stuff for free. Youtube is posting huge losses (estimated annual loss of $470.6 million), for example. The newspaper industry is dying before our very eyes because they decided to give the news away for free online.

-Tofu
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Old 2009-04-12, 13:28   Link #63
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Originally Posted by Tofusensei View Post
The newspaper industry is dying before our very eyes because they decided to give the news away for free online.

-Tofu
The newspapers weren't the ones that decided that. Bloggers, rival news aggregate sites, 24 cable news networks and the shear weight of an internet populated by millions of people who fancy themselves reporters decided that. The newspapers are doing the only thing they can think of to survive (and all it will do is seal their fate), had they stodgily stuck to dead trees they'd die out just as fast.
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Old 2009-04-12, 13:32   Link #64
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You're mistaken. Asides for the New York Times, almost all newspapers started putting their news free on the web as early as the mid-90s, well before most of what you mentioned existed.

http://www.reuters.com/article/newsO...52F03520090316 for reference.

I know you're in Tokyo, but this is a big story lately in the US on all the 24 hours news networks you mentioned. lol
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Old 2009-04-12, 14:44   Link #65
oompa loompa
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Quote:
Originally Posted by dfens View Post
I'm sorry it's never going to be big, like everyone thinks or hope it will be.

Most anime fans I know are poor and can't afford another bill at the end of the month or they are cheap. Why pay good money when you can find it for free and only have to pay your regular internet bill.

Anime could be as low as 1 dollar a episode on DVD and most of my friends or etc sill wouldn't pay it.

Plus the fact that CR doesn't now and probably will never license every show out of japan, even if they show it with in a short time of airing. Fan subbers can have a episode out subbed within a matter of what 12 hours or so.

Or what if your a subscriber and the show you really want to watch is not on their site. I'd be pissed and wonder what the hell I'm paying for. And if I'm paying it better be the best quality humanly possible for download. Which I doubt is happening.

Take a look at this seasons new shows. I'm not really interested in any of them, I can't watch every show released and I don't want to. Why would anyone pay good money to watch X number of shows and pay a flat rate fee for all of them when they only watch 1,2, or maybe even none.

Every DVD I bought which is a lot is because I saw the show fan subbed liked it, and bought it day of release. It could be the same price as in japan and I still pay it. Unfortunately most fans I've met and talked to once they seen it, they'll never buy it.

No matter what they do it's going to be pirated on the internet, it's a idea to earn extra income when normally they get nothing. But it's up to them if all the effort makes them enough profit for all the headache involved. I can imagine them just barely breaking even.

I tried CR one time and it sucked. They were showing shows that I knew for a fact that they don't have a license too, and they quality and speeds were crap. I think I'll stick to torrent and the other streaming sites that are much better and more important till the show is for sale, absolutely free.
Like tofu said, its cos its the right thing to do. money? seriously? people dont have the money? i'm an international college student in the US from a 3rd world country. do you think even that i have money to throw around?? fuck, i can barely afford to take a cab to the city. However, I can and do subscribe to crunchyroll, because, frankly, i dont have the money to spend a lot on anime dvds, and crunchyroll is affordable ( 7$ a month too expensive?!? thats less than a decent meal! or a cab ride to the city for that matter) I'm sorry, while the whole ' if its for free, why pay?' thing mightve worked before, because of the ridiculously high price of anime dvds/merchandise, but I'm not going to believe people dont have 7$ to pay a month. If theres an issue, its certainly not money.

I do agree though that crunchyroll still has its issues, perhaps enough to keep people from subscribing - and I certainly hope they manage to do something about it. Whether or not theyll ever grow to what a lot of people hope they will ( or rather, legal anime streaming), well just have to wait and see, I dont know how optimistic i can be about it.

I really dont get it. compared to the price of dvds, cr's price is almost negligible. Its great to buy the dvd's, but if a person can do that I dont see how a person wouldnt have the money for CR.

I'll reiterate though, CR does have its issues. licensing in regions etc. there still are enough issues to keep people from subscribing, especially in regions where shows arnt available, problems with streaming - however, its most certainly not because people dont have the money, its almost a negligible expense. Still, I subscribe, because as far as i can see, they offer a fairly good service, which is worth the cost.

Quote:
Originally Posted by dfens View Post
They were showing shows that I knew for a fact that they don't have a license too, and they quality and speeds were crap. I think I'll stick to torrent and the other streaming sites that are much better and more important till the show is for sale, absolutely free.
I think its been a while since youve been to crunchyroll. Sure, theyre far from perfect, but that doesnt reflect it.

Last edited by oompa loompa; 2009-04-12 at 14:58.
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Old 2009-04-12, 22:17   Link #66
dfens
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Doesn't matter if it's the right thing to do, people are cheap or just don't give a dam.

You're not going to jail or or worse if you watch a fan sub so their is no real incentive to subscribe to CR.

Their are a bunch of series I'd buy right now if they would license them, I'm one of the rare fans who'll pay full retail and not cry about the price as long as they bring over the ones I want. It could be 40-60 dollars a disc like in Japan and I'd still buy it.

But we live in a world where if you can pirate it and save money even if it's a measly 7 bucks a month. If your like me and manage your budget every penny counts. What about all the teenagers without jobs, or people with families. Money is money I could take that 7 dollars and eat for 2-3 days if I shop smart or stretch it.

Like on one of my side jobs I perform a simple service in which you'd need several hundreds of dollars in tools, and the training/experience to use them. I charge about 20 dollars for my service and people who drive new BMW's or Mercede's give me the 3rd degree on the price I charge. Which is half to almost 3 times less than the competition. I'm working on products that cost several hundred to several thousands of dollars and I'll get every story in the book on why I'm too much. Well if you don't like it than do it yourself or have some moron do it and ruin it.

If they got rid of fan subs tomorrow I'd stop buying DVD's all together I don't think the industry would like a big spender to go away. So until online downloads get to the point it's worth paying for them than their going to be living a pipe dream.
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Old 2009-04-12, 22:24   Link #67
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dfens, being someone who runs your own business, I'd think you'd be more sympathetic to those whose incomes depend on people forking money over for product and service they provide.

I hope when you're a bit older and making more money that you'd reconsider your ways a bit ^^;
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Old 2009-04-12, 22:45   Link #68
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Newspapers face a different problem from anime producers. For most papers, classified advertising contributed a substantial amount of revenues (40% for the Boston Globe a decade or so ago as I recall). Now real-estate agents and auto dealers have websites, job seekers use monster.com, and much of the remaining advertising has migrated to places like eBay and Craigslist. While the problem of "monetizing" news coverage is a real one, for a lot of papers the hit they've taken on classifieds is the bigger problem.

I don't yet subscribe to Crunchy because, up until now, they haven't really been carrying the types of shows I watch. If Ristorante Paradiso is an indication of where they might be headed, I'll gladly become a paying member. I'd be even happier if I could subscribe to a pay-television service with real 720p or 1080p content rather than streams, but that seems quite unlikely at this point.
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Old 2009-04-13, 05:24   Link #69
bigsocce
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Quote:
Originally Posted by dfens View Post
I'm sorry it's never going to be big, like everyone thinks or hope it will be.

Most anime fans I know are poor and can't afford another bill at the end of the month or they are cheap. Why pay good money when you can find it for free and only have to pay your regular internet bill.

Anime could be as low as 1 dollar a episode on DVD and most of my friends or etc sill wouldn't pay it.

Plus the fact that CR doesn't now and probably will never license every show out of japan, even if they show it with in a short time of airing. Fan subbers can have a episode out subbed within a matter of what 12 hours or so.

Or what if your a subscriber and the show you really want to watch is not on their site. I'd be pissed and wonder what the hell I'm paying for. And if I'm paying it better be the best quality humanly possible for download. Which I doubt is happening.

Take a look at this seasons new shows. I'm not really interested in any of them, I can't watch every show released and I don't want to. Why would anyone pay good money to watch X number of shows and pay a flat rate fee for all of them when they only watch 1,2, or maybe even none.

Every DVD I bought which is a lot is because I saw the show fan subbed liked it, and bought it day of release. It could be the same price as in japan and I still pay it. Unfortunately most fans I've met and talked to once they seen it, they'll never buy it.

No matter what they do it's going to be pirated on the internet, it's a idea to earn extra income when normally they get nothing. But it's up to them if all the effort makes them enough profit for all the headache involved. I can imagine them just barely breaking even.

I tried CR one time and it sucked. They were showing shows that I knew for a fact that they don't have a license too, and they quality and speeds were crap. I think I'll stick to torrent and the other streaming sites that are much better and more important till the show is for sale, absolutely free.
You don't have to subscribe to watch anime on CR. It's free and there is only one ad. Hulu generated over $120 million in ad revenue in 2008 and expected to generate over $180 million in ad revenue in 2009.

Hulu gets about 3.5 times as much traffic as Crunchyroll (from Alexa Ranking). However, Hulu gets a lot of companies who are willing to pay for ads. Subscription isn't do or die for CR. Ad revenue will be much more important.

1 ad per viewer generates about $0.01
If 100,000 people watch an episode on CR (with 3 ads per episode) that's $3000. Sadly, it seems not a lot of companies want to advertise on CR.
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Old 2009-04-13, 05:35   Link #70
bigsocce
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If CR can overcome these two challenges, they could corner the fansub market:

1. Quantity of Anime (90% or more of new anime to simulcast on CR)
2. Quality of the Video (720p quality for subscribers and free users)

Some fansub groups will still continue, but most will stop. Many fansub groups stop when an anime is licensed so I'm sure many will stop when it's licensed by CR.
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Old 2009-04-13, 06:16   Link #71
Ash Falls Town
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Originally Posted by bigsocce View Post
If CR can overcome these two challenges, they could corner the fansub market:

1. Quantity of Anime (90% or more of new anime to simulcast on CR)
2. Quality of the Video (720p quality for subscribers and free users)

Some fansub groups will still continue, but most will stop. Many fansub groups stop when an anime is licensed so I'm sure many will stop when it's licensed by CR.
Except stopping fansubs isn't Crunchyrolls goal. Their goal is to make money. Therefore the biggest challenges to Crunchyroll are people ripping the subs and region restrictions. Crunchyroll (or anyone really) wouldn't care one bit about people subbing Devil Children into Hungarian because it's just not worth it.

People turn to subs or rips of series on Crunchyroll because:
1. They can't wait the week
2. They refuse to stream and want to download
3. They object to Crunchyroll on a moral level
4. The video is restricted in their area
5. They dislike the translation
6. Crunchyroll have video issues (Choppy pans and the like)
7. They want subs in languages other than English
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Old 2009-04-13, 07:58   Link #72
Zarn
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I absolutely hate that site.
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Old 2009-04-13, 13:42   Link #73
alamarco
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Originally Posted by bigsocce View Post
If CR can overcome these two challenges, they could corner the fansub market:

1. Quantity of Anime (90% or more of new anime to simulcast on CR)
2. Quality of the Video (720p quality for subscribers and free users)

Some fansub groups will still continue, but most will stop. Many fansub groups stop when an anime is licensed so I'm sure many will stop when it's licensed by CR.
cruncyroll will never make 720p free for all users. That wouldn't make sense because subscribers would see no point in subscribing. The 720p is the main benefit of subscribing to cruncyroll. $7.00 for just having something a week early is pretty expensive, but $7.00 for high quality and a week early is a fair price.

If they made 720p free, they would have to remove subscription and make the videos have a lot more than just one ad. The amount of ads would probably outrage users, even though they're getting HD quality for free. As they say, nothing in life is free.

The only problem with cruncyroll is the amount of anime, but they're fixing that. They added a lot of new shows this session compared to last. So getting toward that 90% new content goal seems like a realistic possibility.
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Old 2009-04-13, 17:44   Link #74
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I think crunchyroll would probably make more money if they made everything free: adds make more money than subscriptions and they would make more money if more people watched the day a series premiered.

I have noticed more sites going legit lately: it's a trend.
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Old 2009-04-13, 17:54   Link #75
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I think crunchyroll would probably make more money if they made everything free: adds make more money than subscriptions and they would make more money if more people watched the day a series premiered.

I have noticed more sites going legit lately: it's a trend.
We've already basically proved that ads don't even come close to subscriptions in terms of revenue generation. $85k/mo from subscriptions and $45k/mo from ad revenue and maybe 20000 views are lost. (An extra $2k in ad revenue.)
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Old 2009-04-14, 13:52   Link #76
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Came across this link today. Goes with my earlier statement.

http://www.internetevolution.com/aut...doc_id=175123&

Youtube estimated to be losing as much as $1.65 Million USD/day. Take this number with a grain of salt, of course.

-Tofu
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Old 2009-04-14, 16:03   Link #77
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Quote:
Originally Posted by dfens View Post
I'm sorry it's never going to be big, like everyone thinks or hope it will be.

Most anime fans I know are poor and can't afford another bill at the end of the month or they are cheap. Why pay good money when you can find it for free and only have to pay your regular internet bill.

Anime could be as low as 1 dollar a episode on DVD and most of my friends or etc sill wouldn't pay it.
http://www.businessweek.com/technolo...331_726397.htm

Time Warner is looking at having "download" plans instead of unlimited downloading--it is currently being tested in several areas. Basically just like a phone has a limited number of minutes in many plans. If you go over the limit, they'll charge you per gig over you go. The analogy is, if you and a friend go out to eat, and you get a light salad and he orders a 3 course meal--then you split the bill--it isn't fair.

This radically trashes your agrument about fan subs being "free"...suddently your IP will start charging you as a middle man. I'd wager, Crunchyroll might be alot more appealing. It makes me anxious, I'll admit.

Sure you can change service providers, but it might end up like how gas stations all mysteriously are within a few cents of each other. It could very well signal the end of the "Wild West" internet stage.
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Old 2009-04-14, 16:21   Link #78
dfens
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Umm that is time warner and I don't live in those areas or use that service. My cable service is unlimited downloads. If they ever change that I could always switch to another cable or DSL provider. So that article means nothing to most people.

I got a notice awhile back that if I download say over I think it was 250-500 gigs a month they could reduce my bandwidth and download speeds, but I don't even come close to those numbers. And I download all the time.

That's why you read your contract before signing.

So fan subs will still be free as long as you're not a sucker and pay those sites that host or provide links for a membership fee.

I was using one site till recently that only hosted links to the streaming episodes, now they charge. It was convient but I have other sources so f-em.

You're never going to lock down peer to peer sharing.

The argument will go on till the end of time, it's like I-tunes you can download music fast and easy for a small fee which is the right thing to do. But most people still find a way to download it some where else with out paying.
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Old 2009-04-14, 17:24   Link #79
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Actually, millions of people have paid for it over 6 billion times.

http://www.techcrunch.com/2009/01/06...-the-philnote/

But +1 for the "everyone else is doing it" justification attempt
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Old 2009-04-14, 21:25   Link #80
0utf0xZer0
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Originally Posted by Telmah View Post
This radically trashes your agrument about fan subs being "free"...suddently your IP will start charging you as a middle man. I'd wager, Crunchyroll might be alot more appealing. It makes me anxious, I'll admit.
Why would Crunchyroll be more appealing in this situation? With streaming you have to download every time you want to watch, not just once. Hardly a good way to get around a bandwidth charge.

Also, in regards to the replies regarding my dropped frames: I wasn't watching the 720P version since I'm using a free account. I'm saying that my 2GHZ PC (that can play quite a few 720P H.264 fansubs just fine) drops frames on Crunchyroll's sub-480P H.264 stream. Either that or said stream uses quite a low frame rate.
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