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Old 2009-04-12, 21:41   Link #461
Sabaku Kyu
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Originally Posted by Chaos Zangetsu View Post
True that GF was truly ignorant and stupid, but back when Ichigo faced GF, Rukia said that all the shinigami who had faced GF died. Rukia was even afraid of GF and she was a seated officer. That would imply other seated officers hadn't survived against GF.
Rukia's not actually a seated officer, though she's at the skill level of a seated officer. But she feared Grand Fisher because she didn't have most of her powers and Ichigo was a rookie shinigami at the time. GF is very dangerous for ordinary shinigami but just about all the shinigami featured in the story are leagues above GF and any captain could handle Grand Fisher just as effortlessly as Isshin. Not just because GF is particularly stupid, but because his power is simply nowhere near a captain's.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Kafriel
I'm curious as to how Isshin knows Urahara and what their connection is. They obviously didn't leave Soul Society at the same time. I'm under the impression that they don't hang out together a lot, but that just might be that Kubo Tite doesn't have a lot of panels of them together.
Interesting thing about that... Isshin knows about the existence of the vizard but he described them as group of "criminal shinigami who used forbidden spells to gain hollow powers.". For him the describe them like that means he doesn't know their true origin since they're actually victims of Aizen's experiments and not criminals. That might mean Urahara hasn't been straightfoward about his connection to the vizard either.
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Old 2009-04-13, 00:08   Link #462
sakuraame
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Originally Posted by Sabaku Kyu View Post
Interesting thing about that... Isshin knows about the existence of the vizard but he described them as group of "criminal shinigami who used forbidden spells to gain hollow powers.". For him the describe them like that means he doesn't know their true origin since they're actually victims of Aizen's experiments and not criminals. That might mean Urahara hasn't been straightfoward about his connection to the vizard either.
I saw that too. Seeing Isshin's view on the Vizard and seeing that Urahara doesn't correct him, it led me to believe that Isshin was around during the Vizard incident and was probably involved in tailing them for capture or something. He talks about the Vizard as if he was sent out on a search party for them. And his description reads like an official definition given out by Yamamoto or the 46 Council members (is that what they're called? I can't remember right now...). I thought that seeing that Isshin's reiatsu isn't recognized by Shinji, it might have been plausible that Isshin was a vice-captain at the time and then promoted after. My logic was that info about the Vizard seems to be something that the Gotei 13 and the 46 Council would want to keep on the DL and so only high ranking shinigami and/or shinigami involved at the time would be privy to that info. Agree? Disagree?

About Urahara not been straighforward about his connections, I was under the impression that before finding out what really happened in the Turn Back the Pendulum chapters, the official line about Urahara's exile was because he made an untraceable gigai. Am I getting my facts mixed up? If I'm right then it shows how much Soul Society tries to cover up the fact that Urahara was "performing Hollowfication experiments". Scandal galore with a captain experimenting on other captains. I'm pretty sure that the untraceable gigai was the official line for Urahara, because if it wasn't why would Isshin freely talk about the Vizard to the guy that supposedly did experiments on his fellow shinigami? It doesn't really add up. Actually now I'm confused as to how Soul Society views the Vizard. Hollowfication experiments or criminal shinigami?

Urahara has never been one to freely give information either. Since Isshin doesn't know about Urahara's role there, Urahara isn't going to tell him, at least not yet, especially since it's such a traumatic and secretive experience for so many.
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Old 2009-04-13, 21:36   Link #463
Chaos Zangetsu
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Originally Posted by Sabaku Kyu View Post
Rukia's not actually a seated officer, though she's at the skill level of a seated officer. But she feared Grand Fisher because she didn't have most of her powers and Ichigo was a rookie shinigami at the time. GF is very dangerous for ordinary shinigami but just about all the shinigami featured in the story are leagues above GF and any captain could handle Grand Fisher just as effortlessly as Isshin.
I understand how Rukia felt at the time, but we don't know who went up against GF. For all we know, a lieutenant could've lost against GF before Ichigo. Regardless, we do agree that Isshin is at least Captain level right?

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Originally Posted by Sabaku Kyu View Post
Isshin knows about the existence of the vizard but he described them as group of "criminal shinigami who used forbidden spells to gain hollow powers.". For him the describe them like that means he doesn't know their true origin since they're actually victims of Aizen's experiments and not criminals. That might mean Urahara hasn't been straightfoward about his connection to the vizard either.
Well, that statement isn't what what SS or Urahara thought of it. Soul Society though Urahara and Tessai performed experiments on them(Aizen probaly framed them to get them to hopefully get them killed since they knew too much) and the truth known by Urahara was Aizen did it and not him. I'd think SS would believe Aizen though because Urahara disobeyed orders and go out of the barracks, plus the fact that Soul Society presumably found evidence(most likely planted by Aizen or evidence of the Vizard's bodies at Urahara's or that their bodies were there).



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Originally Posted by sakuraame View Post
I saw that too. Seeing Isshin's view on the Vizard and seeing that Urahara doesn't correct him, it led me to believe that Isshin was around during the Vizard incident and was probably involved in tailing them for capture or something. He talks about the Vizard as if he was sent out on a search party for them. And his description reads like an official definition given out by Yamamoto or the 46 Council members (is that what they're called? I can't remember right now...). I thought that seeing that Isshin's reiatsu isn't recognized by Shinji, it might have been plausible that Isshin was a vice-captain at the time and then promoted after. My logic was that info about the Vizard seems to be something that the Gotei 13 and the 46 Council would want to keep on the DL and so only high ranking shinigami and/or shinigami involved at the time would be privy to that info. Agree? Disagree?

Actually now I'm confused as to how Soul Society views the Vizard. Hollowfication experiments or criminal shinigami?
The offical record of the incident by the Central 46 was that Urahara and Tessai had performed Hollowification research on Shinji and the others. I think Aizen framed them after he got away from Urahara and Tessai to cover his tracks and it would be very believeable since all he had to do was show Shinji and the others or evidence of them being in Urahara's quarters and plus the most ideal person to be able to carry out research like that is the very head of the Research and Technology Department itself, which just happened to be Urahara. I don't think that Central 46 actuallyt knew the truth, so the only thing with evidence they could rely on was Aizen's framing of Urahara and Tessai. Any shinigami involved in the capture or any shinigami not involved would've gotten the same answer if they asked.
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Old 2009-04-14, 04:00   Link #464
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Maybe he is a captain maybe for remote squad who know but i think he may serve as one of the house clan captain that could be 2 or infact he might be one of those people in 46 room
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Old 2009-04-14, 14:15   Link #465
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Originally Posted by Vinak View Post
Is it ever mentioned when Hitsugaya became Captain of 10th division?
Hits has been a captain for a maximum of 45 years, and that is only if he does the 5 year schooling in 1 year and becomes a captain staight out of school. but given none of that has ever been brought up in any profiles on him my guess is that he has been captain for less then 10 years.
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Originally Posted by Chaos Zangetsu View Post
One thing we can say though is he knows about the Vizard, Aizen, and the Arrancar and Espada and also knows what's going on. He also has a connection with Urahara and the Qunicys. He shows this by what he said to Urahara and Uryu's father during the episode he apeared and regained his powers to kill Grand Fisher.

We also know that by how easy and simple is was for him to defeat Grand Fisher as opposed it was for even Hitsugaya and the others when they fought the Arrancar when they appeared with Grimmjow in Karakura town that Isshin is obviously stronger than Captain level(though Grand Fisher had just become an Arrancar and was so arrogant it'd be easy anyway) and trys to keep undetected. Therefore, if he was apart of Soul Society, he must've either been with the Royal Guard or the King himself. The fact that the Royal Guard would have to be the strongest Shinigami to protect the King supports this. Isshin was also way too wise in my opinion to be a normal Shinigami.
The Royal Guard would have to know the following things to protect the King effectively:
1. Any current threats and who/what they are.
2. Any potenial problem in Soul Society that could threaten the King eventually.
3. Any potenial allys and incoming members to the Royal Guard.
4. As much knowledge as possible that's not exclusively for the King.
5. A full knowing of what's going on in Soul Society and the World of the Living.

If Isshin used to be with the Royal Guard during Aizen's time as a lieutenant and could forsee what he was going to do this explain part of this except that unless he could see the future or see everwhere which is unlikely then Urahara must've kept him up-to-date on the situation the whole time and most likely gave the same info to Uryuu's father the whole time as well.

Therefore, this means that he was part of the Royal Guard or was the King, then left the King's dimension to the World of the Living because something happened there that made him lose his powers.
We actaly have 1 stated job of the 0th division, they are the ones in charge of dealing with Menos level hollows that come to earth, per Rukia's statments way back in chp 48. Although the scanlators just translated it as elite forces. I confrmed from the Souls data book that the group that was refered to there ,the Royal seceret service, is the same group that reports directly to the king in the organizational tree in the same book (which scanlations just used Royal Guards) which matches up with the 0th division.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Sabaku Kyu View Post
Grand Fisher was an arrancar, but he was still an ordinary hollow before that (just more dangerous than usual). He wasn't a menos unlike the arrancar Hitsugaya and the others fought so probably any seated officer could've beaten him without much trouble. Isshin's at least captain-level, but beating GF is certainly not proof that his strength exceeds that of other captains.
While I doubt Gand Fisher was anywhere near a captains level at first he seems to have been around VC level before he removed his mask based on the fact that Iceringer treated him as a semi equal and chided him for not useing most of his strength and playing around and Ichigo likely being about as powerful as a typical 3rd seat at the time. As for after his upgrade Ichigo states that GF's spirtitual pressure is "unbelievably strong" given he has fought the likes of Kenpachi I doubt anything less then captain level would be called "unbelievably strong".
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Old 2009-04-14, 15:18   Link #466
Sabaku Kyu
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Originally Posted by kagato3 View Post
While I doubt Gand Fisher was anywhere near a captains level at first he seems to have been around VC level before he removed his mask based on the fact that Iceringer treated him as a semi equal and chided him for not useing most of his strength and playing around and Ichigo likely being about as powerful as a typical 3rd seat at the time. As for after his upgrade Ichigo states that GF's spirtitual pressure is "unbelievably strong" given he has fought the likes of Kenpachi I doubt anything less then captain level would be called "unbelievably strong".
Ichigo may have got confused by Isshin presence, because he and Sinji both notice the huge spiritual pressure at the same time (when Isshin arrives). And Ichigo seems to have trouble determining if it's a hollow or not. Sinji mentioned that he was surprised Ichigo just noticed the hollow presence, but he's surprised himself at the shinigami spiritual power.

Iceringer was just barely strong enough to inconvenience Ishida. Rukia also effortlessly beat DRoy who was also seen talking down to Grand Fisher. But yeah, since Chad did beat down a 3rd seat pretty easily in SS and he was almost taken out by DRoy, I'll admit that GF was maybe seated-officer level...as an arrancar.

..But tying back in, Isshin beating GF with minimal effort should've been something any captain-level could do (though the limit could up the challenge). I'd say most VC's too. There has been a slow power creep in the story and opponents originally stated to be at VC and seated-officer level don't exactly live up to that anymore. Isshin will have to do something much more impressive than beating Grand Fisher before we can say he has strength that surpasses a captain's.
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Old 2009-04-14, 15:35   Link #467
kagato3
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Originally Posted by Sabaku Kyu View Post
Ichigo may have got confused by Isshin presence, because he and Sinji both notice the huge spiritual pressure at the same time (when Isshin arrives). And Ichigo seems to have trouble determining if it's a hollow or not. Sinji mentioned that he was surprised Ichigo just noticed the hollow presence, but he's surprised himself at the shinigami spiritual power.

Iceringer was just barely strong enough to inconvenience Ishida. Rukia also effortlessly beat DRoy who was also seen talking down to Grand Fisher. But yeah, since Chad did beat down a 3rd seat pretty easily in SS and he was almost taken out by DRoy, I'll admit that GF was maybe seated-officer level...as an arrancar.

..But tying back in, Isshin beating GF with minimal effort should've been something any captain-level could do (though the limit could up the challenge). I'd say most VC's too. There has been a slow power creep in the story and opponents originally stated to be at VC and seated-officer level don't exactly live up to that anymore. Isshin will have to do something much more impressive than beating Grand Fisher before we can say he has strength that surpasses a captain's.
Well you also have to remember that Ishida is pretty much at captain level himself and Chad was 1 shoting 3rd seats in the SS arc. And Rukia is not far from Renji in terms of power and he is sitting on the low end of the captain scale. The upgarded Grand Fisher was also stated to feel more powerful then a MG by
Kon which again places him above the vc mark on the power scale.
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Old 2009-04-14, 15:53   Link #468
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For the (hopefully) last time, power levels in bleach are 100% messed up, if spirit force was measured, you'd see that Ichigo's current power is niggabytes higher than the first time he saw Byakuya in the human world! When menos first appeared they were like, the ultimate threat and their ceros would pulverize everything down to the molecular level. A few arcs later Kenpachi and Ukitake can deflect them like freakin balloons, and let's not forget the hundreds of menos that Renji 1HKO'd in shikai around menos forest, when supposedly he should be having a rough time against just one of them.
GF is a pseudo-arrancar, used to tell us that there's a power gap between normal menos and arrancars, and also served as the introductory villain for Isshin. D-roy was a failed experiment if I remember well, and...well,Chad's just a human, Rukia is a VC-level shinigami, she's bound to be stronger.
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Old 2009-04-14, 21:16   Link #469
Chaos Zangetsu
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While I would admit that this may be the case, you have to remember that the captains and VCs and everyone else have been gaining in power just as Ichigo has. The world doesn't just revolve around Ichigo getting more skilled. If this was the case, then Ichigo probaly could've kicked the crap out of Byakuya when they fought in SS. You have to remember that things arent't as boring in SS anymore as it was before Ichigo came about. At the beginning, sure a menos could've whipped them, but since then the power gap was ever closing and the captains just overpassed them. The menos would still make one heck of a fight for VCs and everyone else. When Isshin apeared though, you also have to remember this was way before Hueco Mundo was invaded. When Grimmjow and those Arrancar invaded Karakura town, I believe if I remember well that they were royally kicking everyones butt, including Hitsuguya's and Ichigo's. That was around the time Isshin beat GF. Now if Hitsuguya was having diffuculties with the real deal Arrancar(I forget if he got his seal releashed) and Isshin had no trouble with GF, then either the power gap between GF and the other Arrancar is huge(by the way, GF never really got the chance to attack and get into a real fight remember), or Isshin was above Captain level at the time.
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Old 2009-04-14, 22:49   Link #470
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uhh...this manga does revolve around Ichigo. he is the protagonist after all.

Spoiler for .:
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Old 2009-04-14, 23:55   Link #471
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i sort of actually like the 'inconsistency' in this manga. it makes it unique from all the others.
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Old 2009-04-15, 10:36   Link #472
Sabaku Kyu
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Kobo is quite notorious for failing to maintain consistency. This is why Menos are no longer the strongest Hollow, why Bankai is now a worthless ability, and why yammy is now the strongest Espada.
Spoiler:


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Originally Posted by Chaos Zangetsu View Post
While I would admit that this may be the case, you have to remember that the captains and VCs and everyone else have been gaining in power just as Ichigo has. The world doesn't just revolve around Ichigo getting more skilled. If this was the case, then Ichigo probaly could've kicked the crap out of Byakuya when they fought in SS. You have to remember that things arent't as boring in SS anymore as it was before Ichigo came about. At the beginning, sure a menos could've whipped them, but since then the power gap was ever closing and the captains just overpassed them.
There's no mention of any of the captains getting stronger (Kenpachi even mentioned that he'd grown rusty when he fought Noitora). Even if they've been preparing, it's only been 2 or 3 months since the end of the SS arc. Unlike Ichigo, who's been training and unlocking new powers, the captains are fighting with the same skills and abilities they've always had.

Quote:
When Grimmjow and those Arrancar invaded Karakura town, I believe if I remember well that they were royally kicking everyones butt, including Hitsuguya's and Ichigo's. That was around the time Isshin beat GF. Now if Hitsuguya was having diffuculties with the real deal Arrancar(I forget if he got his seal releashed) and Isshin had no trouble with GF, then either the power gap between GF and the other Arrancar is huge(by the way, GF never really got the chance to attack and get into a real fight remember), or Isshin was above Captain level at the time.
When Grimm's crew invaded remember that all the VC's and Hitsugaya were fighting with their limits in place (which cuts their power about 80%). They made pretty short work of the arrancar after the limits were lifted.

Spoiler:


Really the whole root of Bleach's inconsistency is that they want to show Ichigo's personal growth, but they also don't want the captains to become irrelevant. So they introduced a group of new enemies who are much stronger than Ichigo's current level (established to be captain-level SS arc), so he has to unlock new power in order fight them, but at the same time, the captains are expected to be able to fight these enemies too, but instead of getting power-ups like Ichigo they just kind of get retconned in to being strong enough to fight the current threat. Frankly, I wouldn't be surprised to see the captains able to fight evenly with the Vastro Lordes and the Vizards.

And there's the whole question of what is meant by above 'captain-level' in the first place. To say that Isshin is stronger than Hitsugaya, Byakuya or Yamamoto are very different things. If you conclude his strength surpasses that of any captain because he beat Grand Fisher easily, that's a huge stretch. Judging Isshin's performance by how he deals with enemies you think Hitsu would have a hard time against isn't really a measuring stick for other captains.
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Old 2009-04-15, 13:06   Link #473
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and why yammy is now the strongest Espada.
When is that revealed?
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Old 2009-04-15, 15:25   Link #474
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In the last chapter, at least supposed to...
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Old 2009-04-18, 21:08   Link #475
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sorry if this has allready been brought up but does anyone else think that ishida's dad might have taken away isshin's soul reaper powers?
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Old 2009-04-18, 23:29   Link #476
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sorry if this has allready been brought up but does anyone else think that ishida's dad might have taken away isshin's soul reaper powers?
No they will all be confuse to see ichigo dad shinigami then they would try find out who he is but i bet captain commander yamanto will vague memory of him
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Old 2009-04-19, 04:36   Link #477
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sorry if this has allready been brought up but does anyone else think that ishida's dad might have taken away isshin's soul reaper powers?
I haven't heard this one before, it could be possible...but Isshin had his powers sealed in the amulet which he ended up holding and eventually giving to Ichigo, so whoever sealed his powers did it on his command.
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Old 2009-04-19, 10:47   Link #478
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this manga is starting to become more lie DragonBleach Z. with Ulq, transformation, Ichigo goes Super Sayan and his fellow earthfriends becoming more like crap until there will be this huge SSj4 Ichigo against 8th tranformation Aizen.
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Old 2009-04-20, 11:33   Link #479
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where does it say that ishin's powers were sealed in the amulet/charm thing?

all i understood was that ishin got the charm thing to protect kon when he was in ichigo's body, it never said that it had all of ishin's powers in it
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Old 2009-04-20, 15:54   Link #480
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The charm activated the second Ichigo's body was in immediate danger of dying, and Isshin said it's been 20 years since he turned Shinigami. There were other occasions where he could have transformed, like when Yuzu and karin were at the graveyard, but he didn't-thus we assume his powers were released through Masaki's amulet.
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