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Old 2009-04-14, 18:27   Link #901
Keroko
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Quote:
Originally Posted by kalbron View Post
Honestly if the rest of the cast have their characters raped like Alicia's I can see VC's anime turning into a slow moving train-wreck. Which is annoying because if the anime became successful there'd be even more chance for a VC 2.

In the game she's calm, rational, intelligent, brave and caring, only really getting annoyed when Welkin does something stupid... like compare her to a (beautiful in his mind) bug. Here she's just bloody Louise with more tits and fewer brain cells.

So long as Welkin becomes more assertive in the next few episodes he won't be too much of a break from character...
I don't see how the changes to, so far, one character equate to the anime becoming a train-wreck. Even if they alter the rest of the cast, the anime may become a success on its own.
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Old 2009-04-14, 18:32   Link #902
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More tank nerdism, ignore if you're not into that

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Originally Posted by Tak View Post
I am quite certain the tank chassis was heavily inspired by the King Tiger as well. I made a very rough comparison several posts earlier, and it would appear that the Edelweiss retained many of the subtle details of the King Tiger

http://img2.imageshack.us/img2/7383/image2.jpg

Good call on headlight (that's what it looks like at least), however track guards you point out are actually more of the old WW1 model type. You'll note that all of the tiger series has the singular large wheels as well, unlike edelweiss. The reason for the change came from the different demand on the tank speed and handling - tanks in ww1 were designed around supporting infantry in trench warfare advance, where they generally had to move at speed comparable to that of a running soldier in full gear.

In WW2, tanks became an autonomous attacking unit, and as a result the flank speed on bad terrain had to go up significantly. Small wheel base was no longer practical, and given room for harder to manifacture and more expensive set of single row of large wheels instead.


If my memory of old history lessons serves me right, the reason for that track guard configuration was due to different threats to the tank. In WW1, tanks often got disabled by infantry grenades falling from above, getting stuck on top of one of the tracks and exploding, ripping the track apart. In WW2 the main threat was anti-tank penetrator weapons fired ballistically at the tank, so the tank hulls became vertically depressed, becoming shorter in height but wider to compensate for loss of internal volume. This made tank a harder target to hit, and even in case of a successful hit, the ballistic form of hull and turret had a chance to deflect the shell (like what happened to edelweiss in this episode). This meant that hull actually partially covered the tracks from the top (as seen in the image you link on tiger2), and track guard only had to cover the top side of the track to avoid grenades getting thrown in from the side - not the top as well.

This is clearly not the case on edelweiss, which still has the pre-ww2 period configuration hull, which is "stuck" between two tracks, with no wide-body hull on top of the tracks.
It does have the ballistically shaped low profile turret through, which is what makes it look so weird and out of place. What makes it especially out of place is the turret size, as the turrets essentially grew larger as bearing and motor technology advanced, allowing to fit more instruments into the turret rather then having to put them into the hull.
Which is why having the large hull of WW1 tank and a turret of WW2 tank just doesn't make sence - there is no need to have so much room inside the tank. Though the ridiculous amount of free room inside edelweiss, as seen in ep2 seems to collaborate that.

Finally there is width of the tracks. Higher speed requirements as well as increased weight caused tank tracks to get wider to allow tank to function properly. You'll notice that tiger2 tracks appear at least twice as wide as those on edelweiss, while being just about right for Panzer 3 and Panzer 4 tank.


Quote:
The Edelweiss was developed int he First Europa War. Although what puzzles me is the fact that the Gallians obviously learned nothing from developing the Edelweiss. Being too expensive or too complex is just not an excuse. Instead of retaining some of its more useful features, like sloped armor, the Gallian Army opted for the Panzer IV Ausf H sans the 75KwK 40 L/43.
The interesting note is that while prototypes often have revolutionary advances, many of them end up being very impractical to mass-produce due to implementation costs. It is quite possible that for example, metallurgy was simply not advanced enough to mass-produce bearings and suspension nessesary for larger wheel set. Germans for example didn't even have the tech until they reverse-engineered some soviet BT-series tanks in the late 30s (the line which culminated in T-34, considered the "tank that won the war").
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Old 2009-04-14, 18:34   Link #903
Bonta Kun
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Quote:
Originally Posted by kalbron View Post
Not second season. Second game. I don't care about the anime, but I NEED a second game. If this helps make it possible, so be it.

Edit: The only difference between anime-Alicia and Louise is the size of her mammary glands and the hitting of the male protagonist. Everything else screams "utterly retarded tsundere with three brain cells".
well in this case I don't how the anime would help with the coming of a 2nd VC game, maybe to a little degree but I would think how successful the game was is how the game gets a 2nd outing.

we'll just have to wait and see what Sega do, I'm guessing that wait is either gonna be a long one or forever

and still I don't how Alicia is compared to Louise, Alicia hasn't hit Welkin yet(and bumping into someone doesn't count-__-), she may be somewhat tsun but no where near Louises level.
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Old 2009-04-14, 18:34   Link #904
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To be frank, the game's story was nothing to write home about. Relatively original? Sure, but nothing amazing. The development of the characters however was the cornerstone of the game's plot for me. Sure they may have had baaaaad cases of Cutscene Incompetence more than a few times, but still.

So when you have a quartet of goodness based around (somewhat-)accurate military information, excellent gameplay and good character development supporting an average story, and you hand characters the Idiot Ball and move to a medium without the gameplay... well... to me that says train-wreck. To you it may not.
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Old 2009-04-14, 18:41   Link #905
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Quote:
Originally Posted by kalbron View Post
So when you have a quartet of goodness based around (somewhat-)accurate military information, excellent gameplay and good character development supporting an average story, and you hand characters the Idiot Ball and move to a medium without the gameplay... well... to me that says train-wreck. To you it may not.

To the jackass-MTV generation, it's not about the content, it's about the delivery! And nothing delivers like a train wreck
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Old 2009-04-14, 19:19   Link #906
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Originally Posted by Bonta Kun View Post
well in this case I don't how the anime would help with the coming of a 2nd VC game, maybe to a little degree but I would think how successful the game was is how the game gets a 2nd outing.
It spreads the name. People automatically pay more attention to things they know, so someone who would not even have glanced at Valkyria Cronicles may suddenly find himself noticing it.
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Old 2009-04-14, 19:40   Link #907
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Originally Posted by Runty View Post
Maybe that was just a personal touch from the translator, but I can't know for sure since I don't understand what Alicia is ACTUALLY saying in Japanese.

BTW, what's with all the discussion on historical accuracy and such? Anyone familiar with the phrase "suspend your disbelief"?
I'm pretty sure it was a literal translation of what she was saying.
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Old 2009-04-14, 19:45   Link #908
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Tak View Post
Ideally, in WWII a full tank crew should consist of five people:

commander, gunner, loader, driver, radio operator.

However, in theory, it is possible to operate a tank with just the gunner, loader & driver.

Isara was the driver, Welkin was the gunner and Alicia ... er... played the role of the commander in addition to perhaps being the loader.

- Tak
Yeah, this is game fantasy but if I recall, the Edelweiss needs a crew of 2. Driver and Commander/Gunner. Loading was done via autoloader. I don't have my game to verify at the moment, though.

I was actually amused that Alicia was giving out all the orders in the tank in episode 2. I actually don't think they changed Alicia that much from the game incarnation.
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Old 2009-04-14, 19:52   Link #909
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Originally Posted by Keroko View Post
It spreads the name. People automatically pay more attention to things they know, so someone who would not even have glanced at Valkyria Cronicles may suddenly find himself noticing it.
We'll see how the anime fares, but apparently the game was wildly successful in Japan, and Kotaku and other sources reported that the creators would like to do a sequel eventually - it probably already has enough exposure even without the anime. We know VC didn't do too well in the West (blame Sega for bad marketing and release timing), so we just have to pray that an eventual sequel will be localized also. Probably the best thing that could happen right now would be for the anime to get licensed - more exposure in the West could work in favor of an eventual western release of the second game.
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Old 2009-04-14, 19:55   Link #910
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Originally Posted by Lucky View Post
Good call on headlight (that's what it looks like at least), however track guards you point out are actually more of the old WW1 model type. You'll note that all of the tiger series has the singular large wheels as well, unlike edelweiss. The reason for the change came from the different demand on the tank speed and handling - tanks in ww1 were designed around supporting infantry in trench warfare advance, where they generally had to move at speed comparable to that of a running soldier in full gear.

In WW2, tanks became an autonomous attacking unit, and as a result the flank speed on bad terrain had to go up significantly. Small wheel base was no longer practical, and given room for harder to manifacture and more expensive set of single row of large wheels instead.
I have noticed that the Edelweiss is actually a mix of German tank designs all the way from the Panzer III to the King Tiger. Its tracks took an obvious inspiration from the Panzer III, the turret is a mix between the Panzer IV and the King Tiger, while the chassis retains largely the appearance of the King Tiger. The track guard is an obvious supplementary unit to the Edelweiss, comparable to the armored skirts of the Panzer IV. Vanilla King Tigers also came without track guards. However, armored skirts seem to be a distinct feature of the Gallian army, but this to me, is an obvious artistic feature, and the emphasis here is not to design a tank that would realistically work. Then again, one should not expect too much from a work of fiction.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Lucky View Post
This made tank a harder target to hit, and even in case of a successful hit, the ballistic form of hull and turret had a chance to deflect the shell (like what happened to edelweiss in this episode). This meant that hull actually partially covered the tracks from the top (as seen in the image you link on tiger2), and track guard only had to cover the top side of the track to avoid grenades getting thrown in from the side - not the top as well.
Ironically, vanilla King Tigers had no track guards. The picture I shown you with the track guard was actually an optional feature. Then again, this might have something to do with what the King Tiger was designed to do, it was after all, expected to out-range and outgun enemy vehicles before the latter become a threat. Being heavily entrenched in urban combat where engaging waves of infantry was not its original purpose. The Germans only discovered the Tiger series usefulness in that aspect later on.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Lucky View Post
It does have the ballistically shaped low profile turret through, which is what makes it look so weird and out of place. What makes it especially out of place is the turret size, as the turrets essentially grew larger as bearing and motor technology advanced, allowing to fit more instruments into the turret rather then having to put them into the hull.
Which is why having the large hull of WW1 tank and a turret of WW2 tank just doesn't make sence - there is no need to have so much room inside the tank. Though the ridiculous amount of free room inside edelweiss, as seen in ep2 seems to collaborate that.

Finally there is width of the tracks. Higher speed requirements as well as increased weight caused tank tracks to get wider to allow tank to function properly. You'll notice that tiger2 tracks appear at least twice as wide as those on edelweiss, while being just about right for Panzer 3 and Panzer 4 tank.
While the image you captured shown a slightly smaller profile, in reality, the specifications of the Edelweiss is comparable to the size of the Panther, but slightly wider. Moreover, it is worth noting that the Edelweiss is only half the weight of the King Tiger, at 30+ tons compared to the latter's 64 tons!

Therefore, at some levels, it can be accepted that the Edelweiss can cruiser at a higher speed (60KM/H vs. 40KM/H of the King tiger).

Quote:
Originally Posted by Lucky View Post
The interesting note is that while prototypes often have revolutionary advances, many of them end up being very impractical to mass-produce due to implementation costs. It is quite possible that for example, metallurgy was simply not advanced enough to mass-produce bearings and suspension nessesary for larger wheel set. Germans for example didn't even have the tech until they reverse-engineered some soviet BT-series tanks in the late 30s (the line which culminated in T-34, considered the "tank that won the war").
The problem is that the Gallians obviously learned nothing. Not that this little detail would distract me from my enjoyment of the show, but I thought I should point out that although the Gallians have went through developing a working, operational prototype, they retained nothing from it (not even superficial factors) and instead opted for vehicles from the previous generation that had already been outclassed on the battlefield. In the game, the Shamrock can act as an infantry support fighting vehicle, but going against an Imperial tank, like the Standard Imperial Tank that was in the 2nd episode, is actually not an easy thing to accomplish.

- Tak
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Old 2009-04-14, 19:56   Link #911
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I actually don't think they changed Alicia that much from the game incarnation.
The way i see it, this is the type of character that she is, and the game never got to expose this side of her. It makes sense because i'm sure it'll happen with a lot of characters --- Welkin for example in these first two episodes.

Either way she's still the Alicia i know and love. She hasn't changed much at all from the game to this adaptation.
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Old 2009-04-14, 20:00   Link #912
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Me no likey Susie. If they wanted a love triangle subplot just incorporate it with existing characters,
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Old 2009-04-14, 20:06   Link #913
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Me no likey Susie. If they wanted a love triangle subplot just incorporate it with existing characters,
...wait, what?

1. Susie's 'existing'. She's in the game.

2. Love triangle? Someone's jumping the gun.
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Old 2009-04-14, 20:36   Link #914
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Originally Posted by spawnofthejudge View Post
2. Love triangle? Someone's jumping the gun.
No kidding, besides, if they wanted to do one, I really, really don't see how it will be Susie.

- Tak
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Old 2009-04-14, 20:44   Link #915
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Isn't there an interview with one of the anime staff about a possible love triangle for Alicia?
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Old 2009-04-14, 21:07   Link #916
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Originally Posted by kujoe View Post
Isn't there an interview with one of the anime staff about a possible love triangle for Alicia?
Yes, I'm pretty sure it was mentioned somewhere. I believe it involves Faldio, Alicia and Welkin.
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Old 2009-04-14, 21:08   Link #917
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Isn't there an interview with one of the anime staff about a possible love triangle for Alicia?
I believe there is.

Spoiler for Triangle:
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Old 2009-04-14, 21:41   Link #918
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After i watch episode 2 i notice the Edelweiss turret doesn't seem to be rotating while driving at full speed i might called that tank the StugIII. This assault tank has more credits kills than the panther and tiger due low silhouette hull design and very difficult to spot.

Last edited by PzIVf3; 2009-04-14 at 22:22. Reason: loaded scan failed
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Old 2009-04-14, 22:41   Link #919
Burner of Anime
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Originally Posted by Tak View Post
The problem is that the Gallians obviously learned nothing. Not that this little detail would distract me from my enjoyment of the show, but I thought I should point out that although the Gallians have went through developing a working, operational prototype, they retained nothing from it (not even superficial factors) and instead opted for vehicles from the previous generation that had already been outclassed on the battlefield. In the game, the Shamrock can act as an infantry support fighting vehicle, but going against an Imperial tank, like the Standard Imperial Tank that was in the 2nd episode, is actually not an easy thing to accomplish.

- Tak
I'm looking at the Edel as a conversion from a heavy weapons platform to an improved CNC unit. The emphasis moved from pure assault to keeping the "Boss" alive. All the while having the speedy command unit mobile and able to lay heavy fire support at the front lines. Thus far, this world has no airpower for spotters in the field. Effective command reach would therefore IMO be determined by how fast the people are on the ground.

Something like this would be quite a doctrine shift from the giant columns of men and machines that steam rolls over the opposition. An Imp. rapid strike unit probably has to commit 6 pieces of armour [plus command car] for every 50 men. The Gallian's cannot fight like this due to inherent manpower limits. I get the impression that they have few professional soldiers/officers, the bulk of their army consist of conscripts and local militias. Covering that weakness with better CNC somehow would be an advantage.

It would take a revolutionary of some sort willing to secret away and support the development of a new type of field command unit to use in a future war. Such shifts usually happens on the very fringe of contemporary thinking and would take a while to spread [like tank Calvary in WW2]. If that's the case, the Edel is a step in that direction though not quite there yet.
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Old 2009-04-14, 23:17   Link #920
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. . . .

Ok, maybe my memory is playing tricks with me, but was Alicia really that big? Well... not that I'm really complaining or anything..
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