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Old 2009-04-14, 13:08   Link #6461
Keroko
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*separates Goose and Kha*

Okay, enough. When I challenged Ark on his complications, it was hardly my intent to start something like this. Now don't you two start clawing each others eyes out again. No buts, because I will hit that report button.

Jimmy put it much better words then I have, all this is simply over thinking things. The technique isn't overpowered, so let's just label it as secure and move on.
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Old 2009-04-14, 13:43   Link #6462
Wild Goose
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*ahem*

In order to give Kha satisfaction:

I DO NOT HAVE A CANON.

I have a fanon.
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Old 2009-04-14, 13:44   Link #6463
MeisterBabylon
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Aye, we thrashed some of it out in IRC. Still not completely settled, but enough for now... I do wish I don't have to keep doing this replying to misplaced attitudes and bias. Certainly doesn't help me headache, especially when I make even more mistakes than usual!

On another note, I wish SaintX was around to answer some of the new queries. Him doing graveyard shift meant that even I can't find him to ask about the skills like I would've done before.


EDIT: Ninja'd rather strangely by Goose.
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Old 2009-04-14, 15:58   Link #6464
AdmiralTigerclaw
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Two pages in five hours, we're alive again.

Okay, I'm going to spill some of my 'expertise' in the area of signal here to assist people.


First off, magical guidance and spelljacking.

If I look at how Nanoha controlls her Shooter spheres, I would have to say that her mechanism is a boosted telepathic style signal and direct remote control. If we can assume that Nanoha or Raising Heart is relaying a guidance telepathic component to her spheres.

If we treat telepathy as a non-electromagnic but still something like a wave signal, there are technical methods of preventing spelljacking.

First of all, transmission of the 'signal'. We're using a non-physical connection, but there are a variety of ways to go about it.
A wide, unfocused 'broadcast' would be detectable, interperateable, and jammable/hackable, where as a tight beam or even 'laser' transmission would be hard to intercept.

If we were to say that telepathic control is 'laser' transmission where as communication telepathy is broadcast... We could say that alone makes it hard to crack because you don't have time to brute hack your way into the sphere's guidance... and you don't have a signal to give you an idea of what to detect.

We could say that When Nanoha fires a shooter, she is Laser Telepathicly linked to the spheres, and she recieves a return laser transmission back from them. The biggest problem for others is knowing where to point that laser at any given moment to transmit the guidance data. But as it has been fired by RH, the device knows the exact position of the spheres at all times, and does all the deep computational work to maintain control lock. Nanoha's part of the control is to provide the actual guidance, which across a sixteen sphere feed, is quite a task, but one she's adept in.

After that, the next issue is signal format. Are we dealing with the magical equal to Analogue, or Digital? I would guess the latter, given that devices are extremely intelligent computer cores. If you're persuing the wrong format, you'll never get the signal right.

Then there's actual data security, cryptography. You don't even need quantum cryptography, just some decently high bit random number. The only two way communication is going to be directly between Raising Heart, and one of the spheres. Raising Heart could logically, generate a unique encryption for each and every single shooter sphere fired, and generate a new one every time Nanoha fires a shot. Given the short lifetime of such an attack, a disposable encryption is actually highly effective. Any hacker trying to hijack Nanoha's attack has to seperately decrypt sixteen different codes, codes that will not be the same the next time the attack is fired.

The number of possible equations from say, a 256 bit encryption would be expressed as
[2^256 x 16] S where S is the number of times Nanoha fires the attack....

So for each sphere, the key has 1.157920892373162e+77 possible solutions. Times Sixteen for all the spheres, and they change with every shot. Add in that from the moment nanoha fires it, you have maybe thirty seconds to access and intercept it tops before it strikes something... Which means you have to be able to go through 3.85973630791054e+75 values a second to brute force hack just one.

Decrypt THAT! BITCH!



Now, as for Guidance beyond line of sight... The 'magical' properties of a 'magic' wave probably just pass through inert objects, so technically, for the magic item and the user, they aren't out of the Line of Sight with each other.
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Old 2009-04-14, 16:24   Link #6465
Arkeus
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there is also the possibility that a shot fired by nanoha's linker core may still "recognize" her, hence only taking into account *her* commands.
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Old 2009-04-14, 17:16   Link #6466
FlameSparkZ
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Originally Posted by Liingo View Post
I feel sorry for Koji TT Although it's good to hear that Koji and Maren will hook up

Can't see any problems with her profile though.

Good to have you back
Thanks, it's good to be back

Quote:
Originally Posted by AdmiralTigerclaw View Post
Two pages in five hours, we're alive again.

Okay, I'm going to spill some of my 'expertise' in the area of signal here to assist people.


Spoiler for Encrypt and Decrypt:




Now, as for Guidance beyond line of sight... The 'magical' properties of a 'magic' wave probably just pass through inert objects, so technically, for the magic item and the user, they aren't out of the Line of Sight with each other.
Nice, very nice indeed
This proves that for a human being, hacking someone else's controlled shots is impossible.
...Now let's close this arguement before it gets out of hand, shall we?

Though, using the above explanation, it's easy to understand how the Numbers tapped into the Forwards' communications during the last battle. It was a broadcast...
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Old 2009-04-14, 20:30   Link #6467
stormturmoil
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I agree, with only one reservation, That Keroko's comments made me realise.

There is a difference between hacking into and assuming control of a remote guided projectile, and using decoys/illusions to spoof said guided projectiles.

thus, even without taking control of the projectile itself, it would be possible for certain characters to re-purpose such guided projectiles by effectively deceiving the user.

I quote as example Both Teana with Fake Silhouette, and of course Quattro with Silver curtain.

Quattro could not take control of Nanoha's Divine shooters directly, however, by using a illusion facade over a target, she could convince Nanoha to send them to a target Quattro chooses.

EG, she could potentially get Nanoha to blast her allies with Divine shooters by plastering Illusions of the Numbers over them.

By the same token, Teana could use Fake Silhouettes to get enemies to shoot at each other by covering their allies with fake Teanas

Just an important distinction I thought ought to be mentioned.
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Old 2009-04-14, 21:16   Link #6468
AdmiralTigerclaw
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Ecept if you're a smart opponent, you're emitting your IFF, either laser IFF, or broadcast.

Looks pretty strange for the illusion enemy to be emitting the correctly encrypted IFF stream.

Even if the enemy copies the IFF and transmits themselves, they force the person to confirm the target. If quattro plasters Tre's illusion onto say, Fate, in order to knock her out with Nanoha's buster. 'Tre' looks odd emitting the correct friendly IFF. Even more so when 'Tre' fires a Plasma Smasher thunder based magic attack.
If Quattro were to Hijack the IFF signal and emit it herself, the fact that she's openly running away from the fight or attacking other friendlies, would blow her cover quickly.

So generally, pretending to make a friend the enemy and vica versa tends to have gaping flaws. And if you rely upon those methods in an overwhelmingly opponent favoring environement, such as Quattro nailed between Nanoha and Fate, she has no attack option, only a flee option and HOPE the enemy is trigger happy against the spoofs.

Information Dominance is a powerful aspect of combat. It can win the battle before it starts. But if you do it wrong, you walk yourself into a killzone.
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Old 2009-04-14, 21:24   Link #6469
Ottocycle
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Quote:
Originally Posted by AdmiralTigerclaw
Then there's actual data security, cryptography. You don't even need quantum cryptography, just some decently high bit random number. The only two way communication is going to be directly between Raising Heart, and one of the spheres. Raising Heart could logically, generate a unique encryption for each and every single shooter sphere fired, and generate a new one every time Nanoha fires a shot. Given the short lifetime of such an attack, a disposable encryption is actually highly effective. Any hacker trying to hijack Nanoha's attack has to seperately decrypt sixteen different codes, codes that will not be the same the next time the attack is fired.
Ahh, magitech. Fully illustrates the diseconomy of scale for any potential hacker.

Guess the same can occur for...Blaster Bits, but if each is fully independently able to initiate SLB, it should be more worth it... *Hides NT-D system crack*
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Old 2009-04-14, 21:31   Link #6470
Tormenk
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NT-D system..? Coating BJs with the reasonable nanoha version of the psycoframe sounds good indeed.

..did I mention I have a Newtype individual that employs up to 16 bits in combat?
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Old 2009-04-14, 21:52   Link #6471
ghazghkull
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Well then...let's get back on track shall we? :3

I has a new shot, and a new character to boot : D

BTW Keroko, there's some Syn in here. For those who thought that I shafted Farukon and his team, you thought wrong >:3

Spoiler for Length:


And now here's the character to boot :3

Spoiler for length:

Last edited by ghazghkull; 2009-04-15 at 20:49.
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Old 2009-04-15, 01:02   Link #6472
arkhangelsk
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All right, the chapter was OK. The character profile is reasonably realistic if it was compiled by Farukon after a first encounter, though at least the spells she DID use should have been catalogued.

Quote:
Originally Posted by AdmiralTigerclaw View Post
Ecept if you're a smart opponent, you're emitting your IFF, either laser IFF, or broadcast.
They ... are ... TSABbies...

More seriously, the below discussion seems to ignore the reality of combat, which is a stress-filled environment requiring the fastest of reactions. If Quattro plasters Tre's illusion onto Fate, Nanoha's first reaction will be "Tre!" and she'll prepare to attack, the more so if Tre's illusions looks to be charging her own attack. Somewhere during fire preparation she might have the presence of mind to check IFF, but maybe not, especially if she already believes her target to be Tre. Once you get into Set, even some contradictory evidence, like a yellow glowing shot might not snap you out of it and you'll attack (just see how an entire team of Americans destroyed an airliner). Even if Nanoha snaps out of it, she'll already have lost in time, and now that she's conscious of the trick but unable to completely defeat it, she'll wind up losing time with each and every attack because she has to double check every time.

Even more effective would be to superimpose FATE onto the Numbers. Sure, maybe the IFF won't ring, but let's face it, even if Fate was supposed to be on a mission 10 dimensions away, psychologically speaking how many seconds would it take Nanoha to come to the correct conclusion in the face of visual evidence (the primary data input for humans), force past her emotions and doubts (what if, what if), and attack? Though the effect would be less in subsequent attempts (if Nanoha wasn't already taken out due to hesitation already), it is hard to imagine that she'll completely get over her hesitation.

And that's often the point of deception. Most deceptions can be broken, given time. So a realistic deception planner uses them to buy a bit of time for himself for advantage, rather than expecting it to be 100% unbreakable. Even a cheap deception is already enough to impose cognitive loads on an opponent to break it.
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Old 2009-04-15, 01:22   Link #6473
AdmiralTigerclaw
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Quote:
Originally Posted by arkhangelsk View Post
snip.
It's not something you plan your strategy around however, as you're depending on your opponent screwing up.

What have I told you about depending on your opponent?

If you depend on the incompetence, predictability, reaction (or lack there of) of a specific opponent, and you AREN'T holding several degrees and PhDs in human Psychology and studied a person's history extensively, you're gambling. Xanatos Gambits aren't good ideas in realistic situations of combat.

In the suggestion, you say stick a 'Fate' illusion on a Number and hope it will shock and stall Nanoha from affecting 'Friendly Fire'. But who's to say if Nanoha's subject to enough combat stress to cloud her judgement? Who says she won't see right through the facade and simply slip out the phrase 'nice try' and blast them to cinders?

I'm not saying it's a bad thing to try as an EXTRA measure, but it's just that, EXTRA. Don't make that to primary method of saving your hide from an opponent. Because in the 50/50 chance that it fails on the spot, you're out of options and staring down a pink laser beam the size of a school bus.
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Old 2009-04-15, 03:52   Link #6474
Wild Goose
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It's Professor arkhangelsk of Mathnoverse Studies, ATC. Don't you know that whatever he writes is The Right Thing In the Mathnoverse No Ifs And Buts About it? Though it does seem as though he's watching Physics Girl Lyrical Nanoha at times

Something to consider though: Nanoha and Fate happily go all out against each other. If Nate were overlaid over a Number, what's to say that Nanoha wouldn't fire anyway? If it's really Fate, then no harm, cuz Fate's strong enough to tank it. If it's not Fate, well they get hammered. Both ways work out.

For some reason, I'm reminded of Eagle Flight. Two Blackhawks flying through the No-Fly zone, delivering Special Forces soldiers into the area; outgoing detachment CO is briefing the incoming CO and showing him the lay of the land. Two USAF F-15s, callsign Tiger Flight, spot the Blackhawks and do a visual ID, and report back to the AWACS that the helos are Iraqi Hinds inside the No-Fly zone. AWACS clears them to be splashed. Visual ID training was, until that point, a low priority for USAF trainers and pilots.

Incompetance and bad calls aren't just the purview of the TSAB. Take Black Hawk Down, which is full of not just badass but bad calls made by everyone (one of the biggest was the Ranger Captain refusing to confer and discuss with his Delta counterpart).
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Last edited by Wild Goose; 2009-04-15 at 04:02.
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Old 2009-04-15, 04:25   Link #6475
arkhangelsk
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Suppose you are part of a tactical team and you are all wearing Level IV protection and armed with pistols. You see a possible target but are not sure whether it is friend or foe. Are you REALLY going to shoot on the basis that the Level IV protection should theoretically allow your teammate to survive your pistol bullets even if they hit?
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Old 2009-04-15, 04:32   Link #6476
Arkeus
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if you are confident in your ability to use non-wounding damage, and that your partner should be able to shrug off the attack, but the enemy will be one-shot..yeah, sure.
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Old 2009-04-15, 04:58   Link #6477
arkhangelsk
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A rational answer - the problem is that it ignores the psychological factors of real combat and killing (the efforts just to get the average soldier to shoot at clear enemies is legend), as well as assuming perfect knowledge of all factors, which will not be true of either the scenario or my analogy (it is not like Quattro is likely to give Nanoha reasons to believe "Fate" is preparing to tank the attack - the effectiveness of an attack against an unprepared target is canon).
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Old 2009-04-15, 05:06   Link #6478
Arkeus
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Except that, for all intent and purpose, quattro is order of magnitude less resistant than fate. Also, those factors are mstly useless in a situation where accident *can't* happen, and where indecivness can carry an extra tag price.

Nanoha is anything but indecisive.
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Old 2009-04-15, 05:08   Link #6479
Keroko
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Shouldn't this be going to the tech or military thread? This really has nothing to do with OC's anymore...
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Old 2009-04-15, 05:51   Link #6480
Sheba
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Shouldn't this be going to the tech or military thread? This really has nothing to do with OC's anymore...
I second that.
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