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View Poll Results: -Your- picks for the best songs in Macross Frontier [Multiple-pick Option Enabled]
Welcome To My FanClub's Night! 67 21.47%
Shinkuu no Diamond Crevasse 108 34.62%
Aimo ~Tori no Hito 83 26.60%
Infinity 84 26.92%
Diamond Crevasse ~Sheryl Only♥ 183 58.65%
Northern Cross 150 48.08%
Anata no Oto 55 17.63%
Seikan Hikōu 82 26.28%
Yousei 98 31.41%
Ai Oboete Imasu ka ~Ranka 76 24.36%
Watashi no Kare wa Pilot 30 9.62%
Lion 164 52.56%
Diamond Crevasse 50/50 36 11.54%
Aoi no Ether 49 15.71%
Neko Nikki 20 6.41%
Nyan Nyan Service Medley 101 32.37%
What 'bout my star?@Formo 109 34.94%
Triangler ~ Maaya Sakomoto 71 22.76%
Iteza☆Gogo Kuji Don't be late 88 28.21%
What 'bout my star? ~Sheryl 78 25.00%
Aimo OC 52 16.67%
Triangular - Duet - 93 29.81%
Multiple Choice Poll. Voters: 312. You may not vote on this poll

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Old 2009-04-15, 04:56   Link #1641
mike_s_6
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Diamond Crevasse = World Peace

Okay, I have to agree with Sec - May'n's CDs sold more which would reflect that we would vote for her songs too right? The audience bought the CDs that had the songs that they like, and it's pretty consistent in that case.

BUT let's not judge the comments in Nico Video. I reckon that if an English community also sees that video, you will see the same "that's too low!" etc because fans who are disgruntled just speak louder. If you comment on a low-ranking song something like, "this song is just in the right spot", it looks like you're not really adding to the discussion. If you say something like, "it's at the right spot, it's low (because it sucks)", then you're being mean. The only positive thing to do, which seems to add to discussion, is to say, "it's too low (because of this and that)!"

If they say that it's because we have bad taste, then that's their call. Anyone can say as much about anyone who doesn't like their own taste in music. It's nothing to be upset about.

EDIT:

The upcoming Yoko Kanno concert is going to include May'n and Megumi in it.

http://gabrielarobin.com/1643/yoko-k...rmation-almost

Last edited by mike_s_6; 2009-04-15 at 06:49.
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Old 2009-04-15, 07:31   Link #1642
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The funny thing is, they assumed anybody who posted in English are automatically Westerners from the other side of the bathtub.

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Old 2009-04-15, 08:35   Link #1643
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Someone needs to tell them it's not loli's it's Ranka..... Fate, Shana, Nagi, Konata, Lousie, Taiga, Kagami, Rika, Hayate's Nagi, Nanoha are all very popular lolis for western fans... I dare say the majority of Sheryl fans on this board are big fans of at least a few of them... I've seen many Sheryl shippers saying Taiga and Nagi are awesome while Toradora and Kannagi were airing.... really it's not loli's, it's Ranka.
Could not agree more. Love Taiga, Shana and Nagi, myself. Ranka, not so much...

As for your points, C.A., you just didn't understand I was being facetious: obviously, it is a matter of taste. I hate most indian music (can't stand the singing voices, most of the time) and my wife hates japanese music (also can't stand the singing), but my daughter actually loves both. No need to wonder how each style of regional song would do internationally - it would just reflect what we have right now, depending on the individual and the mass media drive.

One could also make a (valid) point that the lyrics are accompaniment to the songs - the melodies themselves are what draw most people towards them. If a song has a GREAT set of lyrics, but only a mediocre melody, it probably won't attract all that much attention in the first place - unless you're someone like Bob Dylan, who makes discreet accompaniment to his awesome lyrics.

Finally, math is represented with universal symbols, not in native languages. That's not up to discussion, as we're not talking about enunciation of problems, here, but about the language itself.
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Old 2009-04-15, 09:47   Link #1644
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Someone needs to tell them it's not loli's it's Ranka..... Fate, Shana, Nagi, Konata, Lousie, Taiga, Kagami, Rika, Hayate's Nagi, Nanoha are all very popular lolis for western fans... I dare say the majority of Sheryl fans on this board are big fans of at least a few of them... I've seen many Sheryl shippers saying Taiga and Nagi are awesome while Toradora and Kannagi were airing.... really it's not loli's, it's Ranka.
Its the same point, because what they're saying is that the ranking result is biased. People are judging not based on the music alone, but there's clearly bias, showing more love for Sheryl than Ranka.

And you cannot argue with that, we all know how the shipping went here and how biased this subforum is. The ranking results show that the bottom 10 is mostly Ranka and the top 10 is mostly Sheryl.

@ BetoJR:

Yes its definitely taste. Because Macross is more or less created in Japan for Japanese audience, the music is created to appeal to them the best and they should judge it fairer than foreign audience.

From a musical standpoint, its quite obvious that Sheryl's music would cater to international audience better than Ranka's. Its not Sheryl's songs are better composed or Ranka's are worse, they are from the same composer anyway. You can say foreign audience are not appreciating the music the same way as Japanese and most likely not appreciating as much because its not designed for international audience.
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Old 2009-04-15, 11:39   Link #1645
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Still, you can't argue the fact that May'n centric CD's have outsold Mamegu's consistently, in their native territory. Are they (the japanese fandom) biased, too?
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Old 2009-04-15, 13:01   Link #1646
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Alright guys, honestly just listen to what ever you want to. I actually enjoyed more Megumi songs than May'N songs but that doesn't effect how much I enjoy each song. You can call me bias and all but I wasn't a big fan of Iteza Gogo Kuji Don't be late, Infinity, Yousei and her version of What bout my star?. Now that doesn't mean they weren't good songs but they weren't my favorite.
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Old 2009-04-15, 13:10   Link #1647
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Still, you can't argue the fact that May'n centric CD's have outsold Mamegu's consistently, in their native territory. Are they (the japanese fandom) biased, too?
Actually I didn't see this as a point for argument and didn't know this point is backing up the argument lol

What I see is both Nakajima and May'n's singles sold very well, both are doing great.

Nakajima barely having a year of professional singing did exceptionionally well. May'n spending like 15 years of her life singing, she's definitely much better and she probably already has a good number of fans in the first place.

I don't know, both are good, I don't see May'n defeating Nakajima or anything.
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Old 2009-04-15, 14:31   Link #1648
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Originally Posted by C.A. View Post
Its the same point, because what they're saying is that the ranking result is biased. People are judging not based on the music alone, but there's clearly bias, showing more love for Sheryl than Ranka.

And you cannot argue with that, we all know how the shipping went here and how biased this subforum is. The ranking results show that the bottom 10 is mostly Ranka and the top 10 is mostly Sheryl.
The poll is not intended to be an objective measure of musical quality (if such a thing exists). If anything, it's a collection of all our individual biases towards the songs in the series. Nor is it any sort of "ranking" (although you can do that yourself).

You cannot separate music from the context in which it was experienced. Listening to Diamond Crevasse early in the series is naturally going to be a different experience from listening to Diamond Crevasse after seeing it in the context of episode twenty. So no judgment on the poll is based "purely on the music alone", nor is any judgment more authentic than another.

When ever someone drops the s-word ("shipping"), it always seems to connote some kind of irrational behavior. But choosing your favorite song from a list is every bit as subjective as choosing your favorite pairing.

I find it interesting that the duet version of "What 'bout my star" was significantly more popular than Sheryl's solo version on the poll. This result shouldn't make sense if people were voting based on character preferences.

Quote:
Originally Posted by C.A. View Post
Yes its definitely taste. Because Macross is more or less created in Japan for Japanese audience, the music is created to appeal to them the best and they should judge it fairer than foreign audience.

From a musical standpoint, its quite obvious that Sheryl's music would cater to international audience better than Ranka's. Its not Sheryl's songs are better composed or Ranka's are worse, they are from the same composer anyway. You can say foreign audience are not appreciating the music the same way as Japanese and most likely not appreciating as much because its not designed for international audience.
Music isn't about intention; it's about communication. The emotions that a musician intends to evoke are not more authentic than the emotions that the audience actually experiences.

The dichotomy between "local" and "international" audiences is an oversimplification. What's to say that any pair of individuals within these groups share anything in common in terms of how they experience the music? This separation neglects the broad spectrum of diverse (regional and individual) cultural tastes to create the illusion of two uniform groups with identical preferences.

At it's core, this discussion of "who is the fairest judge of musical quality" is a struggle to reconcile our beliefs of what "ought" to be valued by others with what is valued by others. On one hand, we have our individual opinions, and on the other, we have the poll. Neither is at odds with the other.

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Originally Posted by C.A. View Post
Nakajima barely having a year of professional singing did exceptionionally well. May'n spending like 15 years of her life singing, she's definitely much better and she probably already has a good number of fans in the first place.
If May'n is "definitely much better", then it should be unremarkable that her songs have so many votes.
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Old 2009-04-15, 15:10   Link #1649
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Alright guys, honestly just listen to what ever you want to.
That's so not the point. I, for one, just don't like being told that I'm not allowed to have my own opinion because I can't understand how japanese songs are supposed to work in their context. That's my pet peeve, for one. I don't really care about popularity polls or sales figures - as long as someone doesn't come around telling me I'm a biased westerner that doesn't know his left hand from his right.
And I like some of Mamegu's songs, myself - I just prefer the ones by May'n, is all.

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Originally Posted by C.A. View Post
Actually I didn't see this as a point for argument and didn't know this point is backing up the argument
Of course it's a valid point, if even in the original language territory, if one singer's style sells more than the other, it should mean more people who "understand" the lyrics do prefer her, no? My point is: this whole "biased" view because of a character's popularity and because westerners just don't "understand" japanese songs just doesn't fly. It's a matter of taste. Not localization - as the tastes of the japanese people seem to corroborate, as well.

In all, this is a moot point. Like you said, both artists are enjoying a fair degree of success and I wish them both well. Just don't come here and say that I enjoy something rather than other because I cannot understand the words or the context better. It's preposterous, really.
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Old 2009-04-15, 15:33   Link #1650
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That's so not the point. I, for one, just don't like being told that I'm not allowed to have my own opinion because I can't understand how japanese songs are supposed to work in their context. That's my pet peeve, for one. I don't really care about popularity polls or sales figures - as long as someone doesn't come around telling me I'm a biased westerner that doesn't know his left hand from his right.
And I like some of Mamegu's songs, myself - I just prefer the ones by May'n, is all.
That wasn't my point either I was just trying to lighten to mood a little because arguing subjective topics in music will just go around in circles in my opinion. Although I do agree that character preferences do affect the polls in this forum to an extent, I'm not saying everyone does it but I can imagine that there are people who just voted on Sheryl's songs and vice-versa (meaning this goes for Ranka fans as well.) It's just something that people can't avoid
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Old 2009-04-15, 15:36   Link #1651
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Funny how fandom goes, eh?
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Old 2009-04-15, 16:31   Link #1652
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The poll is not intended to be an objective measure of musical quality (if such a thing exists). If anything, it's a collection of all our individual biases towards the songs in the series. Nor is it any sort of "ranking" (although you can do that yourself).

You cannot separate music from the context in which it was experienced. Listening to Diamond Crevasse early in the series is naturally going to be a different experience from listening to Diamond Crevasse after seeing it in the context of episode twenty. So no judgment on the poll is based "purely on the music alone", nor is any judgment more authentic than another.

When ever someone drops the s-word ("shipping"), it always seems to connote some kind of irrational behavior. But choosing your favorite song from a list is every bit as subjective as choosing your favorite pairing.
This should mean that the Japanese are right in pointing that this poll indeed has a certain degree of bias.
Quote:
Originally Posted by Swampstorm
I find it interesting that the duet version of "What 'bout my star" was significantly more popular than Sheryl's solo version on the poll. This result shouldn't make sense if people were voting based on character preferences.
You can't say character preference is not involved by just one result. Because the biasness affects to a certain amount and produces an overall ranking result, besides there are still some Ranka fans around.
Quote:
Originally Posted by Swampstorm
Music isn't about intention; it's about communication. The emotions that a musician intends to evoke are not more authentic than the emotions that the audience actually experiences.
This I do not agree, because this sounds like its only for an initial reaction. When you go deeper into the lyrics, you'll find more than what the song actually sounds like. And there are many times the music and its lyrics can have very different expressions and meanings.
Quote:
Originally Posted by Swampstorm
If May'n is "definitely much better", then it should be unremarkable that her songs have so many votes.
Yes of course, but it seems some of Japan's favourites, Seikan Hikou for example, gets ranked low in the poll here. This is what they are disagreeing about. They think the westerners are ranking good songs low for the various reasons we've been arguing about.
Quote:
Originally Posted by BetoJR
Of course it's a valid point, if even in the original language territory, if one singer's style sells more than the other, it should mean more people who "understand" the lyrics do prefer her, no? My point is: this whole "biased" view because of a character's popularity and because westerners just don't "understand" japanese songs just doesn't fly. It's a matter of taste. Not localization - as the tastes of the japanese people seem to corroborate, as well.
There's no problem in understanding when its the target audience listening to the music in their own language. But its a problem for foreign audience and the more problematic factors there are the less accurately one can judge.

And yes its a matter of taste, but taste is affected by all these reasons. And like I already mentioned about, they do agree May'n has most of the better music, but they think some songs like Seikan Hikou gets ranked too low because of bias, hate, not understanding what the song is about and stuff. They believe the song should be higher.

I think the only one who gets this the most is BanishingBook, Seikan Hikou is underappreciated.

I hate typing long debates, I think I'll stop here. I can type several thousand words of translations and stuff but damn debates, I just can't concentrate on such. I'd type it halfway and play games then return to finish it.
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Old 2009-04-15, 17:32   Link #1653
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This should mean that the Japanese are right in pointing that this poll indeed has a certain degree of bias.
Anyone would be correct in pointing out that polls, being opinion based, contain people's biases. The problem occurs when people try to argue which way the results ought to have been in the "absence of bias".

Quote:
Originally Posted by C.A. View Post
You can't say character preference is not involved by just one result. Because the biasness affects to a certain amount and produces an overall ranking result, besides there are still some Ranka fans around.
Still, there's a significant difference between character preferences influencing the poll results, and character preferences determining the poll results. That being said, establishing which of these results are due to "character bias" and which of these results aren't is a much more difficult issue; especially given our own biases in interpreting the results.

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Originally Posted by C.A. View Post
This I do not agree, because this sounds like its only for an initial reaction. When you go deeper into the lyrics, you'll find more than what the song actually sounds like. And there are many times the music and its lyrics can have very different expressions and meanings.
Not necessarily. Even with an advance understanding of the text, the audience can still experience the song in ways that the musician and composer never anticipated.

To make things more complicated, no interpretation is static. Changes to a song's arrangement may reflect changes in the composer's interpretation of their own music over time. Likewise, every time that a musician performs a piece is unique, whether it be in how they produce their sound, or in how they improvise and play around with the music. These variations reflect changes in how the musician interprets the piece. Lastly, the audience responds to the music by framing it in terms of their own experiences, which are constantly changing.

Together, the composer, musician, and audience actively participate in the experience and interpretation of music. You can't privilege any part of this process over the other.

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Originally Posted by C.A. View Post
Yes of course, but it seems some of Japan's favourites, Seikan Hikou for example, gets ranked low in the poll here. This is what they are disagreeing about. They think the westerners are ranking good songs low for the various reasons we've been arguing about.
While comments on Nico may provide you with the viewpoints of specific individuals, it's much more difficult to generalize those opinions to all of Japan. That problem could be easily fixed, however...

...by running a poll.
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Old 2009-04-15, 17:37   Link #1654
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but they think some songs like Seikan Hikou gets ranked too low because of bias, hate, not understanding what the song is about and stuff. They believe the song should be higher.
And I believe it should be even lower. I totally find that song utterly half-assed - the only good thing about it was the stellar animation at Ranka's concert. Sure, call me biased, but it won't change the fact that I just don't like that song. Neither the melody, nor the lyrics, nothing about it makes me go and say: "it's nice" - apart from the actual episode animation, which was great.
Give me Aoi no Ether or Anata no Oto - hell, even her covers like My Boyfriend's a Pilot and Ai Oboete Imasuka - any day over that poppy trash. This is my opinion, and you're welcome to disqualify it by calling me a biased westerner. I don't care.

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I think the only one who gets this the most is BanishingBook, Seikan Hikou is underappreciated.
Obviously, I disagree. But I'm a poor misguided westerner who couldn't be expected to understand the greatness of just such a song, eh?

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I hate typing long debates, I think I'll stop here. I can type several thousand words of translations and stuff but damn debates, I just can't concentrate on such. I'd type it halfway and play games then return to finish it.
See ya, then.
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Old 2009-04-15, 18:09   Link #1655
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I don't know, but you seem like you're thinking totally off from what the discussion was and most probably misunderstood some points.

And lol @ myself, why did I waste time translating stuff.
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Old 2009-04-15, 19:10   Link #1656
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Now you've done it. Let's see, this right here is your original post, right?
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Originally Posted by C.A. View Post
LOL the comments are hilarious , I agree with most of them though.

First thing is the obvious shipping disaster effect. A bunch of them pointed out that westerners hate lolis, some even admit that Japan loves lolis singing. These are posted around 20 - 15.

For No. 14 Seikan Hikou, there's an uproar, not loli hate and shipping, but they totally disagree that Seikan Hikou ranks this low. It got on the Oricon charts, its really a great song, foreigners don't know how to appreciate Japanese music and this song is especially meaningful for Japanese.

Then it carries on 13 Triangular, who they also think its a good song and foreigners obviously don't know how to appreciate Japanese music or they're really just all about Sheryl.

12 Welcome to My Fanclub's Night = too low, foreigners are really weird.

11 Triangular = no problems, just a little surprised for various individual reasons.

10 Ai Oboeteimasuka = too high, because the best Ai Oboeteimasuka will always be Minmay's and its way better than this version.

9 Infinity = some think its good, some think it should be no. 1

From 8 - 2 they all already guessed would all be Sheryl songs and they're just guessing what could be no.1, the obvious choice is Diamond Crevasse, but some jokingly puts Ninjin, Watashi no Kare wa Pilot and some wonders why Neko Nikki isn't even in the list.

No.1 Diamond Crevasse = They declare world peace.
----------------

Mainly I agree with them, especially on foreigners not knowing how to appreciate Japanese music.

I'm sure not all of you check the lyrics, even more certain that you understood them, not in English, its pointless. Because Japanese songs have a certain beauty in the way they do lyrics, its more poetic than most other music out there. Japanese put in a lot of effort matching lyrics to the song and to the singer, not understanding the lyrics in Japanese already means you don't get most of the song at all.

EDIT: My favourite song is still Seikan Hikou even after listening to May'n live.
My biggest problem here, as exemplified in my previous posts, was this: "Mainly I agree with them, especially on foreigners not knowing how to appreciate Japanese music". What's there to misunderstand? You deem us non-japanese people as unworthy of the inherent beauty of such a piece as "Seikan Hikou". Well, I got news for you, bub: there are better songs out there, even coming from the same series. Now, if you continue to say we're simply uneducated outsiders who don't understand things, well... really, this is very much a big waste of freakin' time. And I don't really argue with snobbish xenophobes. For the last time, see ya.
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Old 2009-04-15, 19:49   Link #1657
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Now you've done it. Let's see, this right here is your original post, right?


My biggest problem here, as exemplified in my previous posts, was this: "Mainly I agree with them, especially on foreigners not knowing how to appreciate Japanese music".
I have to admit, I was ticked off there, too.

EDIT: Seikan Hikou was a good song...sorta. Thing is, it was a poppy idol song, even Yoko called it that. You know the kind of song you get hyped up over until it gets boring and annoying and, may I add, cheesy? Hell, I greatly prefer Aimo over this.

The Ranka songs I liked were her covers on Ai Oboete Imasuka, Aimo O.C. , and her version on What 'bout my star. (Crap, FD is going to kill me. ). The ones I greatly dislike are Neko Nikki and Seikan Hikou. I just don't like the former and the latter just got cheesy in the short run. Thats just me though.
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Old 2009-04-15, 22:23   Link #1658
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@C.A. if you ever you think you are alone in this, you are not I'm afraid.
I agree with your points. For me they are rational and unobtrusive. I can't say so much about this matter or else it will take a long wall of text to explain how one's love of music has to be so intelligently dissected.

But the mental breakdown from all this chatter digresses from enjoyment and I find that even simply liking has to be put in suspicion and tried and tried. Well anyhow, this is my short cake. Over and out.
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Old 2009-04-16, 00:39   Link #1659
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and I find that even simply liking has to be put in suspicion and tried and tried.
Funny. I thought that was exactly his point, with the whole "westerners don't understand japanese music" shtick. Must be just me, tho.
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Old 2009-04-16, 02:56   Link #1660
Westlo
Lets be reality
 
 
Join Date: May 2007
Quote:
Originally Posted by C.A. View Post
I think the only one who gets this the most is BanishingBook, Seikan Hikou is underappreciated.
Seikan Hikou is complete and utter fast food music, defending this would be like seeing someone on a hiphop forum defend Souja Boy's latest "amazing masterpiece" and saying it's good because it's in the charts You're acting like Seikan Hikou is a brilliant song that's overlooked because hardly anyone here likes Ranka, you're acting like it's Kaiba's Never.

And for the record my fav song in the series is Do You Remember Love: Bless the Little Queen so I guess your shipping theory goes flying out the window with me... that and Ranka's What About My Star are in my top 5. Aimo Birdman (waaaaay better than the original, o.c and sheryls) is another massive favorite of mine. Oh wait I forgot I'm biased
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