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Old 2009-04-16, 10:37   Link #2001
Jimmy C
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We just consider it realistic for Nanoha and co. to have a higher output than Ark considers realistic. As a result, we don't have a problem with all the power they're throwing around in the Cradle in the midst of a strong AMF.
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Old 2009-04-16, 10:44   Link #2002
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Jimmy C View Post
We just consider it realistic for Nanoha and co. to have a higher output than Ark considers realistic. As a result, we don't have a problem with all the power they're throwing around in the Cradle in the midst of a strong AMF.
More proof that Nano-verse is a Super Robot show of the old school. Professor arkhangelsk, you really should give up. I applaud you for fighting to the bitter end, but it's kinda hard to argue sense in a Super Robot show that argues Friendship and Family through FIREPOWER.
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Old 2009-04-16, 11:06   Link #2003
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Originally Posted by arkhangelsk View Post
That interpretation is canonically locked? Or is it just your read of the situation.
Locked. You can clearly see them going through a field, kind of like a water ripple. It's easier to see in the non-DVD version, but still very much present in the DVD version.

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Originally Posted by arkhangelsk View Post
Obviously, you actually agree, but just want to nitpick on exactly how hard they are working. It is definitely clear that they are breezing through the thing, which is what the Brute Force solution would have implied.
In that case, yes I agree they are struggling, yes I say that even when struggling Nanoha manages to supply her scouts with energy and hold off Vivio at the same time.

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Originally Posted by arkhangelsk View Post
In short, I propose a scenario that might realistically solve the problem, but you insist on an unrealistic solution?
Like Jimmy said, I just consider it realistic for Nanoha to have enough energy to blow her way through the AMF rich Cradle, create and supply scouts with energy, and hold off Vivio at the same time.
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Old 2009-04-16, 11:07   Link #2004
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Originally Posted by arkhangelsk View Post
I suppose you meant Nanoha's funnels and not the funnels in Gundam.
No, o great Evangelist Professor, I was referring to Gundam funnels. hence the reference to Minovsky particle interferance. Nanoha uses Blaster Bits in AMF conditions.

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Originally Posted by Nagumo View Post
My impression is quite a bit different.

You are proposing a scenario that might realistically solve the problem... for an anime/magical girl show which is inherently unrealistic.
Don't you know? We're watching the wrong show. This isn't Magical Girl Lyrical Nanoha, it's Physics Girl Nanoha! Where everything shown is 100% correct and true, nevermind that we can see where 7Arcs has been halfassing the animation, because The Frames Are True And Just And Correct Because The Professor Says So, thus saith Mathnova. (So yes, this means that Tea is a possessor of a strange ability to inflate and deflate her boobs at will....)

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Originally Posted by JamesEdwards View Post
More proof that Nano-verse is a Super Robot show of the old school. Professor arkhangelsk, you really should give up. I applaud you for fighting to the bitter end, but it's kinda hard to argue sense in a Super Robot show that argues Friendship and Family through FIREPOWER.
Looking over things, I've come to the conclusion that arkh is really a Mathnova's Witness, here to spread the Good News of Frame Counting as stated in the Book of Arkh of the Church of the Math Professor With No Qualifications. Hence, all this arguing is really going nowhere because we're not arguing with points and logic and reason, but with belief.

So since this is what's happening... LET'S KICK REASON TO THE CURB!!! SCREW PHYSICS! Yes, I am mocking arkh. This is also a ref to the Jenova's Witnesses comic of VG Cats.
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Old 2009-04-16, 11:15   Link #2005
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Originally Posted by Wild Goose View Post
(So yes, this means that Tea is a possessor of a strange ability to inflate and deflate her boobs at will....)
Or that it is apparently physically correct for debris to fall significantly faster then a person and survive getting snatched out of mid-air.
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Old 2009-04-16, 11:26   Link #2006
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Like I said, this stopped being about analysis a long time ago. This is about belief.

Thought versus thought, will versus will, point versus point, belief versus belief...

Almost like Archer vs Shirou in UBW, although that was admittedly more epic than this farce that is Magitech. This should be the Mathnova's Evangelisation Thread.

I note that the professor hasn't been able to pull this shit in the SW fandom because nobody there will let him evangelise. *shrug*
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Old 2009-04-16, 14:12   Link #2007
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Goose, something I'd like to point out, is that while I do agree with your sentiments on Arkh at times, what you're doing every time you throw up like what you did two posts up is essentially FlameBait.

Taking Potshots at Arkh every other post is unacceptable behavior whether he desserves it or not.

Were it me, you'd be taking a one-week vacation right now until you learned to Cool Your Head a Bit... ~_~

"Crossfire... shoot."

You better chill before someone randomly checks in and decides to agree with me.
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Old 2009-04-16, 19:17   Link #2008
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Originally Posted by Keroko View Post
Locked. You can clearly see them going through a field, kind of like a water ripple. It's easier to see in the non-DVD version, but still very much present in the DVD version.
Little too close to work to take snapshots, but Here's what it is in the DVD version. They were passing through clear air as they descended. Then we saw the ripples coming in horizontally almost flat. This, if anything, suggests the field just "snapped on" in a reactive fashion.

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Originally Posted by Nagumo View Post
My impression is quite a bit different.

You are proposing a scenario that might realistically solve the problem... for an anime/magical girl show which is inherently unrealistic.
As I previously written to you in a PM, human nature virtually ENSURES that even a human's best attempt at being unrealistic still winds up leaving the universe more realistic than unrealistic. The more so if the attempt has to be published, because ultimately the audience wants to understand what's going on, which is impossible if the show is too unrealistic.

Further, while observations may force us to accept unrealistic capabilities or processes, IMO there is no need to deliberately pick the less realistic option in the canonically valid zone. It is akin to insisting that Nanoha does not have an ordinary stomach, but a matter annihilation plant where the stomach is supposed to be.

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Originally Posted by Keroko View Post
Like Jimmy said, I just consider it realistic for Nanoha to have enough energy to blow her way through the AMF rich Cradle, create and supply scouts with energy, and hold off Vivio at the same time.
I wish I can get away with things like Midcrete by just saying that I consider it plausible for the wall to be that soft

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Originally Posted by Wild Goose View Post
No, o great Evangelist Professor, I was referring to Gundam funnels. hence the reference to Minovsky particle interferance. Nanoha uses Blaster Bits in AMF conditions.
In other words, you just went off topic.

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Where everything shown is 100% correct and true,
That's the principle of canonicity and Sod. You ASSUME everything is true, unless you have a specific reason.

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(So yes, this means that Tea is a possessor of a strange ability to inflate and deflate her boobs at will....)
You can start by going to measure all the scenes with Teana's boobs, discount any apparent difference that can be attributed to measurement error, perspective or clothing, and quantify the lower-limit in variation.

Besides, even if there IS a significant difference, why can't Teana just be playing with breast pads (it says something about Teana, but write the creators, not me)? Heck, this is actually one of the EASIER things to do with magic - just put a conformal barrier (for the appropriate softness) on top of the breasts, and shape it the way you want it to be - you can even change it second by second, or it'll change a bit autonomously depending on your body and mental condition if you don't watch out.

Since she's canonically an illusionist, she can even make it look like a real breast and not a pad or a glowing mass (not that we can really check on this point because MGLN is not a hentai and thus the breasts are never fully exposed). It even doubles as a bit of protection!

(In this scenario, BTW, Teana's true breast size would probably be the smallest of the measurements, since "adding" is easier than "subtracting". Technically it can be smaller than that, but for the sake of minimizing expenditure conservatism favors it being just "the smallest of the observed measurements").

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Originally Posted by Keroko View Post
Or that it is apparently physically correct for debris to fall significantly faster then a person and survive getting snatched out of mid-air.
For the first, it is obvious that she's just using those "slow your fall" techniques that are canonically taught in Training School. It is amazing how you ignore canonical explanations when it suits you, even when they work. For the second, quantify the velocities involved and show that the accelerations involved will be definitely lethal.

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Originally Posted by Wild Goose View Post
I note that the professor hasn't been able to pull this shit in the SW fandom because nobody there will let him evangelise. *shrug*
Strike Witches fandom? Not only am I not particularly interested ... where is it?

Last edited by arkhangelsk; 2009-04-17 at 00:43.
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Old 2009-04-17, 01:30   Link #2009
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Originally Posted by AdmiralTigerclaw View Post
Goose, something I'd like to point out, is that while I do agree with your sentiments on Arkh at times, what you're doing every time you throw up like what you did two posts up is essentially FlameBait.

Taking Potshots at Arkh every other post is unacceptable behavior whether he desserves it or not.

Were it me, you'd be taking a one-week vacation right now until you learned to Cool Your Head a Bit... ~_~

"Crossfire... shoot."

You better chill before someone randomly checks in and decides to agree with me.
I'm merely trying to demonstrate, in an over the top manner, what a farce this all has become as well as the fact that arkh's behaviour is akin to Jehovah's Witnesses. Everything running here is now on belief, and less on fact. It's all belief.

Thus, whatever "discussions" that occur are inherently pointless. You ever try talking to a Jehovah's Witness? Same frustrations.

My perspective, as is the perspective of most people in OCT, is that of a writer. I just poke a bit and try to figure out how things work so that I can use them. Arkh on the other hand, is taking things too far - and to what benefit? He doesn't write. He doesn't use any of this shit. It's all evangelism, belief and intellectual one-upmanship.

Besides, it's true that he doesn't have any qualifications in this field. Hence why I take everything he calculates with a pinch of salt. As well as everything he translates, but then, after 1 year of office politics, backstabbing, being the butt monkey of my sempai (until they quit en masse)and generally dodging shit and managing to get promoted by sheer guts, determination and hard work, I take everything with a pinch of salt. Even TVC and RaAd and Insert schedules.

@arkh: No case to answer, o Witnessing Professor. I reject your interpretation and substitute my own. (All apologies to Mythbusters for paraphrasing Adam's line.)
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Last edited by Wild Goose; 2009-04-17 at 01:40.
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Old 2009-04-17, 01:42   Link #2010
Keroko
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Originally Posted by arkhangelsk View Post
Little too close to work to take snapshots, but Here's what it is in the DVD version. They were passing through clear air as they descended. Then we saw the ripples coming in horizontally almost flat. This, if anything, suggests the field just "snapped on" in a reactive fashion.
Screens for you:



They are clearly passing the outer layer of the Field here.

Quote:
Originally Posted by arkhangelsk View Post
Further, while observations may force us to accept unrealistic capabilities or processes, IMO there is no need to deliberately pick the less realistic option in the canonically valid zone. It is akin to insisting that Nanoha does not have an ordinary stomach, but a matter annihilation plant where the stomach is supposed to be.
Actually, that is exactly what you are doing. You are the one going out and claiming that the AMF is turned off without any evidence saying so. You'd think turning of an AMF would be noticed, wouldn't you say?

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Originally Posted by arkhangelsk View Post
I wish I can get away with things like Midcrete by just saying that I consider it plausible for the wall to be that soft
Unfortunately, you're not. Like I said, having support for your arguments is nice at times like these. I have support for my claim that Barrier Jackets are saving them in cases like these, ranging from Nanoha's initial explanation in the manga to the booklets detailing that Barrier Jackets can be constructed towards the mages specifications. All these sources claim Barrier Jackets to be a valid form of defense, and therefore make the conclusion that Barrier Jackets protected them a logical one.

You, however, have nothing but your own theories to support your claim, and dodge every of my requests for canon backup.

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Originally Posted by arkhangelsk View Post
For the first, it is obvious that she's just using those "slow your fall" techniques that are canonically taught in Training School. It is amazing how you ignore canonical explanations when it suits you, even when they work.
While falling down in a screaming panic? Besides, there wouldn't really be a need for Fate to pluck her out of the air with a Sonic Move (showing there was a need to be fast) if she was going to make a safe landing, would there? Hell, Fate even says "that was dangerous." which is blatantly showing Ginga was about to go splat, especially in conjunction with the other pieces I just stated.

Also, that scene is a nice example of why voice lock doesn't work for anime. The entire scene is blatantly slow motion, and yet we hear Ginga's voice.

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For the second, quantify the velocities involved and show that the accelerations involved will be definitely lethal.
Right. I'll get back to you on that one.
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Old 2009-04-17, 04:18   Link #2011
Jimmy C
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Originally Posted by arkhangelsk View Post
Further, while observations may force us to accept unrealistic capabilities or processes, IMO there is no need to deliberately pick the less realistic option in the canonically valid zone. It is akin to insisting that Nanoha does not have an ordinary stomach, but a matter annihilation plant where the stomach is supposed to be.
The thing is, you're insisting on hard limits to Nanoha's performance in an AMF and calling anything beyond that "unrealistic". Do you have hard numbers on Nanoha's magic output at this age? Do you have hard data on how efficiently AMF wears down magic output, especially versus an S+ trained to operate under such conditions? Without those, how can you state that Nanoha could not have been able to output enough magic to do all that she did in the Cradle battle with the AMF up throughout the ship?
Furthermore, whether the AMF was shipwide or limited to the sections the intruders were in, that doesn't change the fact that Nanoha was maintaining a two-way remote link to her scout spheres. Regardless of how much magic she had to output to support W.A.S due to the scale of the AMF, she also had to supply more magic for the spheres to be able to report back to her. Or do you want to tell me that the spheres don't have to punch through the AMF surrounding Nanoha to send their reports back to her?
Therefore the AMF being shipwide and Nanoha having enough magic output to operate in it sounds simpler and realistic than your ideas.
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Old 2009-04-17, 04:45   Link #2012
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Originally Posted by Wild Goose View Post
Thus, whatever "discussions" that occur are inherently pointless. You ever try talking to a Jehovah's Witness? Same frustrations.
Typical Creationist response – when unable to engage his opponent’s scientific argument logically, claim it is all “belief” and “interpretation” anyway and hope no one notices that if both are “beliefs” and interpretations, one is based on methods that brought us the modern world, the other based on methods that kept humanity in the Dark Ages.

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My perspective, as is the perspective of most people in OCT, is that of a writer. I just poke a bit and try to figure out how things work so that I can use them. Arkh on the other hand, is taking things too far - and to what benefit? He doesn't write. He doesn't use any of this shit. It's all evangelism, belief and intellectual one-upmanship.
Problem #1: We are not in OCT anymore. Need I say more?

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Besides, it's true that he doesn't have any qualifications in this field. Hence why I take everything he calculates with a pinch of salt. As well as everything he translates
Actually, for the Japanese I do have a JLPT1. As for the calculations and science, they are generally about High School level. Which is nice because you don’t have to take my word for it – it should be within most of our denizen’s capabilities to check them.

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Originally Posted by Keroko View Post
They are clearly passing the outer layer of the Field here.
Strange, I see the same sequence and I conclude that they were descending and suddenly the AMF snapped on, and we see the startup “flare”. If they were descending through the “bubble” of an extant field, we would see ripples emanating from their bodies. Instead, we see ripples from all directions coming towards them.

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Actually, that is exactly what you are doing. You are the one going out and claiming that the AMF is turned off without any evidence saying so. You'd think turning of an AMF would be noticed, wouldn't you say?
I'll say the fact that the dinky little round is surviving is a pretty good sign it is not floating around in a place souped with AMF.

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Unfortunately, you're not. Like I said, having support for your arguments is nice at times like these. I have support for my claim that Barrier Jackets are saving them in cases like these, ranging from Nanoha's initial explanation in the manga to the booklets detailing that Barrier Jackets can be constructed towards the mages specifications. All these sources claim Barrier Jackets to be a valid form of defense, and therefore make the conclusion that Barrier Jackets protected them a logical one.
To avoid doing BJ, the XXX Redux, I'll just call Red Herring. The primary basis of the Midcrete wall, even more than human survivability considerations, is the observation of the velocities that can dent it. The Barrier Jacket can save them from 300,000km/s-0 decelerations in 1mm of space, and it still won't change the fact we saw humans fly into the wall at a very pedestrian velocity, and the wall cracked.

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While falling down in a screaming panic? Besides, there wouldn't really be a need for Fate to pluck her out of the air with a Sonic Move (showing there was a need to be fast) if she was going to make a safe landing, would there? Hell, Fate even says "that was dangerous." which is blatantly showing Ginga was about to go splat, especially in conjunction with the other pieces I just stated.
One can be scared but still take the right action (and what was shown says she did) - that she isn't strong enough yet to make the right action save her altogether doesn't mean it wasn't the right move.

Quote:
Also, that scene is a nice example of why voice lock doesn't work for anime. The entire scene is blatantly slow motion, and yet we hear Ginga's voice.
No, what that means is that it is real time, and Ginga wasn't falling that fast. You can even blame some unseen, unheard of floor mounted repulsor all the way at the bottom, but it is in real time.

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Right. I'll get back to you on that one.
Try, let’s see if you make it this time. As I said, I’m more concerned with you learning to do this right than of my arguments. Frankly, I'm starting to feel like a failure for not being to able to get you to do it right after over a year (separate from issue of getting you to agree).
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Old 2009-04-17, 05:16   Link #2013
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Originally Posted by arkhangelsk View Post

Problem #1: We are not in OCT anymore. Need I say more?
We may not be in OCT anymore, but the points remains the same: There is a difference between "healthy" "analysis" of the magic and tech in Nanoha, and then there is overanalysis that simply further complicates matters - there's things like Teana explaining how her Variable Shoot works so that people can understand how it can penetrate AMF, and then there's stuff like trying to numerically quantify the strength, power, density and effectiveness of that spell under conditions that the anime itself never even bothers to visit, as an example.

The issue here is this: real world observations are being imposed on a world that ISN'T real, and doesn't follow the conventions of the real world. Nobody's saying that logic and reason should be thrown out, but it's always best to remember that in a discussion regarding the technology and magic of a storyverse names MAGICAL Girl Lyrical Nanoha, that there is a LIMIT to how much of "our reality" can be applied to the situations presented in a show that's inherently unrealistic (hence why most of us cringe at all the framerate speed observations - animation is such an imperfect and inconsistent medium that frame rates is hardly ever used by anyone else as objective speed guages).

The fact that the Nanohaverse actually bothered to provide scientific inspiration and pseudo-scientific explanations to all its various technomagical aspects is icing to the cake, making it unique from many other magical girl shows and giving us nice thought fodder (the reason this thread was created in the first place). But it's still secondary to story, plot, rule of cool, animation limits and other things that do not exactly comply 100% to situations in the real world.

There are times when one simply has to take what is shown in the storyverse and say "this is how they say it happens, thus that's how it is". If you're playing in someone else's sandbox, it is best to play the game by their rules.
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Old 2009-04-17, 05:36   Link #2014
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Old 2009-04-17, 08:00   Link #2015
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Originally Posted by Jimmy C View Post
The thing is, you're insisting on hard limits to Nanoha's performance in an AMF and calling anything beyond that "unrealistic". Do you have hard numbers on Nanoha's magic output at this age? Do you have hard data on how efficiently AMF wears down magic output, especially versus an S+ trained to operate under such conditions? Without those, how can you state that Nanoha could not have been able to output enough magic to do all that she did in the Cradle battle with the AMF up throughout the ship?
If I had half that amount of data, I won't have called my opposing interpretation "less realistic" but "canonically valid". I will have said your interpretation is "canonically inadmissible", "ignores evidence" ... etc. You know I don't mince words.

Further, generally, given that Theory A requires a Capability of A and Theory B requires a Capability of 10A, Theory B had better have some really good things in its favor if it wants to be even marginally competitive.

Since the ability is observed and not stated, its justification is entirely dependent on it being the minimum required to achieve the observed result. In a case where a Character only needs Capability A to do the job using Theory A, the justified level of capability based on the event is Capability A, not 10A. If anything, it is your side that needs all the data you listed up above, just to prove that Theory B that uses 10A is executable at all, let alone that Theory B is a better idea.

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Furthermore, whether the AMF was shipwide or limited to the sections the intruders were in, that doesn't change the fact that Nanoha was maintaining a two-way remote link to her scout spheres. Regardless of how much magic she had to output to support W.A.S due to the scale of the AMF, she also had to supply more magic for the spheres to be able to report back to her. Or do you want to tell me that the spheres don't have to punch through the AMF surrounding Nanoha to send their reports back to her?
Honestly, I was more concerned about the round dissolving. From the fact they can easily communicate outside, it is not hard to see that AMF doesn't do much against magi-communications (as opposed to Quattro's jamming).

Besides, even if the spheres have to "punch" through AMF, it seems pretty obvious that all else (such as AMF concentration) being even, punching through say 5m of AMF that directly surrounds Nanoha is a h*ll of a lot easier than punching through 500m of AMF that is between Nanoha and her little scout round.
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Old 2009-04-17, 08:58   Link #2016
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Originally Posted by arkhangelsk View Post
Strange, I see the same sequence and I conclude that they were descending and suddenly the AMF snapped on, and we see the startup “flare”. If they were descending through the “bubble” of an extant field, we would see ripples emanating from their bodies. Instead, we see ripples from all directions coming towards them.
We do see the ripples:



Though they're much easier to see in the earlier version:



Quote:
Originally Posted by arkhangelsk View Post
I'll say the fact that the dinky little round is surviving is a pretty good sign it is not floating around in a place souped with AMF.
No, that doesn't prove anything. It's just as easy for us to say that Nanoha is constantly supplying her scouts with power.

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Originally Posted by arkhangelsk View Post
To avoid doing BJ, the XXX Redux, I'll just call Red Herring. The primary basis of the Midcrete wall, even more than human survivability considerations, is the observation of the velocities that can dent it. The Barrier Jacket can save them from 300,000km/s-0 decelerations in 1mm of space, and it still won't change the fact we saw humans fly into the wall at a very pedestrian velocity, and the wall cracked.
You seem to misunderstand. What I am saying is that you make an observation: people crash through Mid walls, and explain that observation with a theory (since a normal human can't survive that, Mid walls must be crummy). Theories are not proof, that's why they are theories. However, when asked for canon support to prove that theory, you cannot show anything. The theory 'the speed calculations show that couldn't have happened' is irrelevant to begin with, considering we've seen the same thing happening in A's. With earth-made concrete.

Meanwhile, I make the same observation. I see people crash through walls as well. Then I explain that observation with my theory (Barrier Jackets must have protected them).

Now here comes the critical point, and this is where you hit a dead end. You don't have any support validating your theory. I, on the other hand, have plenty. Nanoha's explanation, similar situations happening in A's on earth, Teana and Vice considering Auto Barriers abundant protection for traffic, the various booklet articles detailing that Barrier Jackets are more then simply pieces of cloth and so on and so on.

And the same thing is the case in our current discussion. You only give us theories, but you never give us proof. You make the observation (the scout round is floating around unaffected by AMF) and then throw in your theory (I guess the AMF must be off then) but beyond that you give us no support. Where was it said to have been turned off? Where was it shown?

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Originally Posted by arkhangelsk View Post
One can be scared but still take the right action (and what was shown says she did) - that she isn't strong enough yet to make the right action save her altogether doesn't mean it wasn't the right move.
Okay, valid point. You've convinced me.

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Originally Posted by arkhangelsk View Post
No, what that means is that it is real time, and Ginga wasn't falling that fast. You can even blame some unseen, unheard of floor mounted repulsor all the way at the bottom, but it is in real time.
Once again, you throw in unsupported theories, and refuse to accept the medium as inherently inaccurate. I believe I already mentioned this before a long time ago, back when we were debating A's and there was a scene of Nanoha flying in a voice locked scenes at speeds that should have barely been enough to crack the glass she hit, and yet had her crack the concrete surrounding the window and on the floor she landed.

Edit: A closer inspection of the scene showed that the reason everything seemed to move so slow was because I wasn't paying enough attention to the background, which was moving quite rapidly. My mistake. That still does not change my above point though.

Voice locking works in live-action due to the nature of the medium. Even framerate calculation can be said to be more doable in live-action (though I'd still place my questionmarks at calling them accurate). Anime, however, is not live-action. It's animation. In animation the very nature of the media is such that slow motion and real audio are much more blendable.

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Originally Posted by arkhangelsk View Post
Try, let’s see if you make it this time. As I said, I’m more concerned with you learning to do this right than of my arguments. Frankly, I'm starting to feel like a failure for not being to able to get you to do it right after over a year (separate from issue of getting you to agree).
Mostly because I hardly even bother to try. Too lazy to do calcs after returning from a fist aid course, so I'll have to make you wait a bit longer.
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Last edited by Keroko; 2009-04-17 at 10:08.
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Old 2009-04-17, 09:46   Link #2017
Jimmy C
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Quote:
Originally Posted by arkhangelsk View Post
Further, generally, given that Theory A requires a Capability of A and Theory B requires a Capability of 10A, Theory B had better have some really good things in its favor if it wants to be even marginally competitive.
Can you prove that Nanoha doesn't have that 10A necessary to pull it off?
I consider "She has enough power to pull it off" to be adequate. Consider the complexity of your argument: Just because you refuse to allow the possibility that Nanoha has enough magic output to operate remote scout spells throughout a shipwide AMF, you insist that the Cradle must be using some kind of selective AMF generator that only activates when Nanoha is in a room. Wouldn't it be easier to just flood the whole ship with an AMF? That way, you don't need to know where she is on the ship, her ability to fight will be hindered.
The latter is simpler, is it not? Also, note that the AMF wasn't even strong enough to prevent her from flying and fighting. Why would it be strong enough to break her links with her scouts?

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If anything, it is your side that needs all the data you listed up above, just to prove that Theory B that uses 10A is executable at all, let alone that Theory B is a better idea.
To this, I'll just say, S+ , Divine Buster and Starlight Breaker x5. Even after all that fighting, she was still only winded, not spent. Only when the AMF kicked into high gear was she shut down. I consider that to be more than enough to prove she has the reserves to power her scouts even under a shipwide AMF.

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Honestly, I was more concerned about the round dissolving.
The rounds wouldn't dissolve as long as Nanoha kept them supplied with magic, which she did, despite the AMF.

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From the fact they can easily communicate outside, it is not hard to see that AMF doesn't do much against magi-communications
Communications between what? An S+ mage at one end and a TD-cruiser at the other? They'd be real pathetic if they couldn't output enough magic to punch through the AMF to communicate. A tiny scout round on the other hand? It'd run out of magic real quick trying to punch through the AMF, whether it was shipwide or just in Nanoha's vicinity. The only way it can maintain contact is if Nanoha continuously supplied it with the magic needed to do so.
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Old 2009-04-17, 10:11   Link #2018
arkhangelsk
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Originally Posted by Keroko View Post
We do see the ripples:

Try those frames right before. It is extremely clear that the Y-axis (vertical) ))(( (concave) waves came first. Only after the scene cut do you see any of Nanoha's (()) (convex). So, the field was just starting up. If the field started up earlier, we'll expect to see the ))(( crisscrossing as a diagonal.

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No, that doesn't prove anything. It's just as easy for us to say that Nanoha is constantly supplying her scouts with power.
Which will be admittedly possible, but it is an enormously adverse situation and thus quite unlikely. It'll require several previous undemonstrated and unstated abilities ... etc.

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You seem to misunderstand. What I am saying is that you make an observation: people crash through Mid walls, and explain that observation with a theory (since a normal human can't survive that, Mid walls must be crummy). Theories are not proof, that's why they are theories. However, when asked for canon support to prove that theory, you cannot show anything. The theory: the speed calculations show that couldn't have happened is irrelevant to begin with, considering we've seen the same thing happening in A's. With earth-made concrete.
Complete failure to even understand what was observed. The Observation was: People crashed and dented Mid Walls at a ridiculous slow speed. That's the complete observation. If anything, humans CAN probably survive impacts at the observed velocity with relative ease, so that isn't the justification for Midcrete or for any impressive qualities of Barrier Jackets for that matter.

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Meanwhile, I make the same observation. I see people crash through walls as well. Then I explain that observation with my theory (Barrier Jackets must have protected them).
Then, when confronted with the show basically SHOWING you that doesn't work, you resort to throwing out data. If my theories are merely unsupported by text, they have the advantage of being consistent with the show. If your theories can be considered supported by the text (even though any quantity was a product of your imagination), it is blasted apart by the show, who wastes no time in showing us its real deceleration handling limitations.

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Teana and Vice considering Auto Barriers abundant protection for traffic, the various booklet articles detailing that Barrier Jackets are more then simply pieces of cloth and so on and so on.
I see that they were only so confident about that stuff that Teana wore a helmet.

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And the same thing is the case in our current discussion. You only give us theories, but you never give us proof. You make the observation (the scout round is floating around unaffected by AMF) and then throw in your theory (I guess the AMF must be off then) but beyond that you give us no support. Where was it said to have been turned off? Where was it shown?
For this one: Where is the text supporting that Nanoha can fight through 500 or so meters of AMF to supply her rounds, even in an ideal situation, let alone when she's fighting Vivio. Where was it stated?

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And yet Fate considered her in danger, throwing more support to the theory that she wasn't slow-falling.
When you perform the calculation, it is hard to avoid the conclusion that Fate should just have let her hit the ground. Even if you INSIST on breaking VTL, the ratios are unavoidable.

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Once again, you throw in unsupported theories, and refuse to accept the medium as inherently inaccurate.
ROFTLMAO. To say the source is inherently inaccurate, as far as canon is concerned, is in itself an extremely unsupported theory.

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I believe I already mentioned this before a long time ago, back when we were debating A's and there was a scene of Nanoha flying in a voice locked scenes at speeds that should have barely been enough to crack the glass she hit, and yet had her crack the concrete surrounding the window and on the floor she landed.
Yes. The solution there is that you accept it, and try and see why Nanoha can crack glass and concrete despite the slow speed.

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Mostly because I hardly even bother to try. Too lazy to do calcs after returning from a medical course, so I'll have to make you wait a bit longer.
Well ... do them. You usually self-immolate, but I promise you that if you work this one correctly, you'll be very reluctant to say the visual is inaccurate
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Old 2009-04-17, 10:34   Link #2019
arkhangelsk
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Jimmy C View Post
Can you prove that Nanoha doesn't have that 10A necessary to pull it off?
Responsibility to prove the 10A comes to the person proposing it in the face of an alternative.

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I consider "She has enough power to pull it off" to be adequate. Consider the complexity of your argument: Just because you refuse to allow the possibility that Nanoha has enough magic output to operate remote scout spells throughout a shipwide AMF, you insist that the Cradle must be using some kind of selective AMF generator that only activates when Nanoha is in a room. Wouldn't it be easier to just flood the whole ship with an AMF? That way, you don't need to know where she is on the ship, her ability to fight will be hindered.
How about power efficiency. Presumably, the AMF is not free. Leaving them off where they aren't required is just good efficiency.

Remember also that the Cradle's original purpose is not to fight off Nanoha. Originally, there was also a human crew, presumably most of which are magic users. (That's why the system doesn't immediately start off by using its "Killer-AMF" mode which would have ended the whole thing in a hurry.

Sure, they are trained to work with AMF so they aren't shafted as much as hypothetical untrained boarders, but that doesn't mean they aren't hurt by it. So, it is obvious that a selective AMF system will allow preparations and other work to be done in as yet uncontested compartments.

A AMF system that cannot be selective is like a Halon Fire Suppression system that can only flood the whole ship with gas.

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The latter is simpler, is it not? Also, note that the AMF wasn't even strong enough to prevent her from flying and fighting. Why would it be strong enough to break her links with her scouts?
Flying and fighting are done very close by. The links will be over dozens or hundreds of meters (it is not even clear whether Nanoha can create that long an "extension cord", even in ideal circumstances).

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To this, I'll just say, S+ , Divine Buster and Starlight Breaker x5. Even after all that fighting, she was still only winded, not spent. Only when the AMF kicked into high gear was she shut down. I consider that to be more than enough to prove she has the reserves to power her scouts even under a shipwide AMF.
I noticed that she was suffering with each hit and blow, lost 8% of her magic, could just barely walk, and fell asleep when she hit the helo. Lots of reserves is not what I'll call it.

The rounds wouldn't dissolve as long as Nanoha kept them supplied with magic, which she did, despite the AMF.

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Communications between what? An S+ mage at one end and a TD-cruiser at the other? They'd be real pathetic if they couldn't output enough magic to punch through the AMF to communicate. A tiny scout round on the other hand? It'd run out of magic real quick trying to punch through the AMF, whether it was shipwide or just in Nanoha's vicinity. The only way it can maintain contact is if Nanoha continuously supplied it with the magic needed to do so.
Nevertheless, they did communicate, without even static. Nanoha was not exactly struggling in any way. And as I said, even IF Nanoha had to "constantly supply it with magic", clearly, the loading would be a lot lower if we assume it only had to fight through 5m of AMF instead of 500.

Another way of limiting the expenditure of little magical round is if it doesn't communicate until it finds a big contact. It is a reasonable strategy - they MUST know by now Quattro has substantial EW capability, and not having it constantly squawk out "radio signals" is going to keep that little round covert from Quattro longer.
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Old 2009-04-17, 10:48   Link #2020
Wild Goose
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Join Date: Nov 2007
Location: Doing Anzu's paperwork.
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Quote:
Originally Posted by arkhangelsk View Post
Typical Creationist response – when unable to engage his opponent’s scientific argument logically, claim it is all “belief” and “interpretation” anyway and hope no one notices that if both are “beliefs” and interpretations, one is based on methods that brought us the modern world, the other based on methods that kept humanity in the Dark Ages.
That's a cute argument. It would have more weight if we weren't discussing a fictional magical girl universe. Thus your attempt to portray yourself as a "scientist" using logical arguments fails, because nothing in this series can be proven conclusively. I see your attempt at going offtopic and hereby ignore it.

Ultimately, everything in here is interpretation. Nothing more, nothing less. Any attempts to pretend otherwise are pretentious. At least you agree that this is all pointless.

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Problem #1: We are not in OCT anymore. Need I say more?
Lowe has pretty much said it for me. Arigato, kyoudai.

Besides, I don't see you abandoning your perspective when you foray into other threads - why should we be any different? Do as I say, not do as I do?

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Actually, for the Japanese I do have a JLPT1. As for the calculations and science, they are generally about High School level. Which is nice because you don’t have to take my word for it – it should be within most of our denizen’s capabilities to check them.
In absence of a diploma and means of verifying what you claim your qualifications are, you'll forgive me if I increase my salt intake.

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Strange, I see the same sequence and I conclude that they were descending
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I'll say the fact that the dinky little round is surviving is a pretty good sign
I'd say the above is a pretty clear sign that we aren't dealing with facts and quantifiable variables, but with interpretations and beliefs. (And interpretation shows up a lot more than you would think in science. The data is there, and you can make it say anything to fit your interpretation - especially if the data is inherently flawed.)

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No, what that means is that it is real time, and Ginga wasn't falling that fast. You can even blame some unseen, unheard of floor mounted repulsor all the way at the bottom, but it is in real time.
You still haven't given me an explanation for how a tsuiso that takes 5 minutes in Best Motoring can be stretched out into 2 episodes of Initial D. Hardly as off-topic as you'd think, as I have an end in mind, but if you don't bite... oh well.
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Last edited by Wild Goose; 2009-04-17 at 11:50.
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