AnimeSuki Forums

Register Forum Rules FAQ Members List Social Groups Search Today's Posts Mark Forums Read

Go Back   AnimeSuki Forum > Anime Discussion > Older Series > To Aru Majutsu no Index

Notices

Reply
 
Thread Tools
Old 2009-04-15, 17:30   Link #41
BlueDo
Senior Member
 
 
Join Date: Oct 2008
Alright, since you guys aren't getting each other, let me lay this out
Point of view from people who think Touma cannot block Railgun:
  1. The coin is accelerated using electrical and magnetic fields. After Mikoto fires it from her hand, it just has its own momentum, and is not kept up by ESP.
  2. The reason Touma is capable to cancel other electric attacks is because they are constantly held up by ESP-produced electric fields.

Point of view from people who think Touma can block Railgun:
  1. He has done it in Railgun the manga
  2. He said it can
  3. The books(?) say he can

I'm learning toward a 'cannot' right now, but decides to let this thing slide.
It's evident the author has left loopholes.
This is a bit similar to the discussion about how Touma stopped Ellis' punch by colliding it with his Imagine Breaker.
Like, "this is not making sense."

Last edited by BlueDo; 2009-04-15 at 18:03.
BlueDo is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 2009-04-15, 20:00   Link #42
stillmissing
Senior Member
 
Join Date: Jan 2006
I'm not really going to get into this argument, because the truth is the author is genuinely inconsistent, but I'll say a few things.

First of all, the bridge encounter was the first time Mikoto ever showed Touma the railgun, and no she didn't shoot it at him. No, he never blocked it. Yes, he claimed he could with no experience to actually back up his claim.

Unreliable narrator (Touma) or unreliable author? That's up to you.

The way Imagine Breaker supposedly works (until the author gets inconsistent again) is that Touma cancels out any active supernatural power. In short, if the power isn't "on" Imagine Breaker does nothing. Similarly, Touma can't undo what's done by a power. What's done is done.

So he can cancel Stiyl's magical fire, but he can't fix a melted railing caused by it, nor would he be able to safely touch that railing while it was still hot after being in contact.

Similarly, Mikoto's shocks can be stopped as they represent an active power, but if she just tossed a rebar at him without guiding it actively, he better dodge.

Her chainwhip and Sherry's Golem can also be stopped because they represent an active use of power. Both are held together and guided by an active use of power (magic and magnetism) and when he touches them, the motion stops and they fall apart as both applications of the powers are interrupted.

Accelerator is a more serious problem as he uses his powers actively in short bursts other than his defensive field which is always active. So he can cancel Accelerator's defensive field, but even if Accelerator just kicks a pebble at him, Accelerator only has his power active for that second where he comes in contact with the pebble. After that, what's done is done and Touma can't change that. So whether it's hurling rocks or steel, or making a dust explosion or tossing plasma, unless Touma actually touches him while he's actively using his power to make these things happen, there's not much he can do to stop them.

Yes, if Mikoto and the clones hadn't interfered Touma would have been annihilated by the enormous plamsa mass.

Anyway, don't worry about it too much as the author doesn't seem to either.

Last edited by Pellissier; 2009-04-16 at 01:03.
stillmissing is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 2009-04-16, 01:34   Link #43
Keroko
Adeptus Animus
*Author
 
 
Join Date: Jan 2007
Age: 26
Quote:
Originally Posted by stillmissing View Post
I'm not really going to get into this argument, because the truth is the author is genuinely inconsistent, but I'll say a few things.

First of all, the bridge encounter was the first time Mikoto ever showed Touma the railgun, and no she didn't shoot it at him. No, he never blocked it. Yes, he claimed he could with no experience to actually back up his claim.
So what you're saying is that without proof, we have no way of saying whether or not he can block it?

In that case it's just as useless to assume he can't. Touma is not the type of person to brag and grossly exaggerate his abilities, so there really is no need, nor reason, to say he's lying, especially -in the case of the novel- in an internal dialog.

What we have here is every single source claiming that Touma can block a blast from Mikoto's Railgun. The only thing that has been 'proof' against it have been theories. This is a case of theories versus canon, and in cases like this canon quite simply wins.
__________________
Keroko is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 2009-04-16, 06:44   Link #44
stillmissing
Senior Member
 
Join Date: Jan 2006
Quote:
Originally Posted by Keroko View Post
So what you're saying is that without proof, we have no way of saying whether or not he can block it?
Actually no. What I was saying was that if Mikoto's railgun works the way it's technically supposed to, as in she uses her power to accelerate and launch the coin with a flick, then no he can't block it as the author has currently laid out his ability.

However, the author could decide that Mikoto is constantly accelerating the coin on a magnetic "path" (which would be complete nonsense, but not the first time that would happen in the novels) or something like that when she uses the railgun in which case he could as it would be an active application of power with which Imagine breaker could interfere.

Also, it's not necessarily about Touma lying, (it's actually about the author changing "rules" as the story progressed past the first novel) rather it's about Touma just not knowing what he's talking about, which was common even before he lost his memory.
stillmissing is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 2009-04-16, 06:59   Link #45
Keroko
Adeptus Animus
*Author
 
 
Join Date: Jan 2007
Age: 26
By that same logic, the momentum of the Golem's punch should have been carried through even if the golem was stopped, causing the golem to lurch forward (the only reason you can stop a punch you threw is because you are applying counterforce, the golem would not be able to do so and would topple forward).

Touma's power can cancel items directly, or rather consciously, affected by special powers, such as Index's robe, Sherry's golem, Accelerator's vector change and as such also Mikoto's Railgun.

What he can't alter are items indirectly affected by such powers, like the novel mentioned debris caused by an explosion of a fire spell.

Perhaps the nature of Imagine Breaker is the answer to this. We have theorized before that Touma's ability breaks down the imagined result of a mage or psychic. Using Komoe's words, they create 'their own worlds' in which certain rules apply. Or rather, their own imagination. Imagine Breaker, conveniently a probably shortening of Imagination Breaker, cancels these imaginations.

This may be why Imagine Breaker affects Mikoto's Railgun, because it is an attack formed by her imagination. To put it bluntly, the coin only flies that fast because she imagines it does so. The moment Touma touches that coin, the imagination is canceled and the coin returns to it's normal state as a coin.
__________________
Keroko is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 2009-04-16, 08:15   Link #46
stillmissing
Senior Member
 
Join Date: Jan 2006
No, as I mentioned before, and it bears repeating, Imagine Breaker can only affect an *active* application of a supernatural ability.

Sherry's golem is being constantly affected by magic. This magic provides it with both structure and motion. When the magic is disrupted or canceled, it loses both structure and motion. The same rule applies to Mikoto's chainwhip.

On the other hand Touma cannot affect Accelerator's attacks at all. It doesn't matter if it's a pebble or a steel girder. There is no active power acting upon the object. His power acts on it once for a fraction of a second and then it's done. There's nothing for Imagine Breaker to affect. It's just a normal pebble or girder flying through the air with no supernatural power affecting it anymore.
stillmissing is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 2009-04-16, 08:47   Link #47
Keroko
Adeptus Animus
*Author
 
 
Join Date: Jan 2007
Age: 26
There is a power active. The changing of vectors is a power that is constantly active as long is the object is moving in the vector decided by Accelerator. If this is not the case, then by the same reasoning a fireball released by Stynx, as it is no longer being powered by him once it is shot away, or Ars Magma, which creates the users imagination without any apparent upkeep, or even Mikoto's lightning once she fires it would be listed as effects of their own. Yet all of these are affected by Imagine Breaker.

As I said before, so far every source is saying that Touma can block it. Touma himself in the novels even compared it as such:

"Like the laughing stock on television, in Academy City, those with superpowers are calculated with numbers. This strange power stops even God's miracles. The same goes for that girl's railgun attack. However, Kamijo's Imagine Breaker only operates on those strange talents. Simply put, it can stop the fireball itself, but not the concrete the fireball shattered. Also, the effect only works from the wrist up. if the fireball were to hit any other place, it would definitely burn me."

Even though he knows he can't do anything about the concrete shattered by a fireball, he still says he can block a Railgun blast. Why? Because a Railgun blast is consciously affected by the power. It is a direct effect, and thus can be countered with Imagine Breaker.
__________________
Keroko is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 2009-04-16, 09:14   Link #48
stillmissing
Senior Member
 
Join Date: Jan 2006
I know it's hard to follow, but there is no active application of power. If Accelerator were to flick a rock at someone's head and Touma put his right hand on it right as Accelerator tried to do it, he would cancel the active use of power and Accelerator would end up hurting his sissy finger.

But once he flicks it, it's over. Something accelerated by accelerator is no different than something burned down by Styil. The effect already took place and Touma can't undo it.

Styil's fireballs and Mikoto's shocks are an active application of their power. Styil's fire is generated purely by his magic and canceling the magic cancels the fire.

If Styil were to use a rune to control an existing fire rather than creating one purely through magic, Touma could disrupt his control over it but wouldn't be able to simply negate the fire itself as it wouldn't be magical in nature.
stillmissing is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 2009-04-16, 09:23   Link #49
Keroko
Adeptus Animus
*Author
 
 
Join Date: Jan 2007
Age: 26
Do you have any proof that such an event would occur? Or rather, do you have any proof that the exact opposite of what the novels are saying would occur?

You're piling theories upon theories while ignoring what the novel is saying: Even though he can't negate something that is affected as a secondary effect, as long as the primary effect is magical/psychic in nature, he can negate it. Both Railgun and Vector Change are primary changes.
__________________
Keroko is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 2009-04-16, 09:36   Link #50
stillmissing
Senior Member
 
Join Date: Jan 2006
Imagine Breaker's inability to stop anything Accelerator tossed at him, large or small was made pretty clear during the battle in vol 3 if you read it. Naturally, when Accelerator tried to touch him to kill him Touma blocked with his hand and canceled the active use of power. Similarly by punching with Imagine Breaker, he was able to cancel Accelerator's active defenses and hurt him.

But other than that, all Touma could do during the battle was desperately dodge.

Styil's fire and Mikoto's shocks are wholly unnatural and generated directly by their powers. They are brought into being not by maniupulating nature, but simply pop into existance due to the supernatural, and hence Imagine Breaker makes them cease to exist if they come in contact with it.

Accelerator's plamsa differs in this respect. While he used a supernatural power to create it, he did so by manipulating nature. The plasma itself is natural, created by wind currents. Thus Touma can interfere with the creation process, but once it's done that's a perfectly non-supernatural plasma ball about to fry him anbd Touma's in a serious jam.
stillmissing is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 2009-04-16, 13:06   Link #51
Keroko
Adeptus Animus
*Author
 
 
Join Date: Jan 2007
Age: 26
And yet he had no problem stopping Misha's water spell, which was manipulated water drawn from the ocean, not magically created water. According to your previously mentioned manipulating fire rather then create it theory, Touma should not be able to do anything about it. This clearly wasn't the case.

Another analogy is that this spell is also in line with the likes of Railgun, as despite the water being controlled by magic, it is still water heading towards you. Like the Railgun, dispelling the magic does not change the fact that water is rushing towards you with speed capable of killing you.

As I said before, I really don't think Touma's concern was that things were thrown at him, but more that those things were solid steel railroad bars. That, and that they were dropped from above. Even if he were to touch them and cancel the acceleration, gravity means he would still have to deal with a solid steel bar-o-hurt falling on top of him.
__________________

Last edited by Keroko; 2009-04-16 at 15:04.
Keroko is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 2009-04-16, 15:12   Link #52
Metaneo
Anime Watcher
 
 
Join Date: Apr 2009
Location: Sanford, Maine
Age: 26
I believe this topic has moved from how Touma's power works to how Mikoto works.

This is how I see the whole "Imagine Breaker vs Railgun" situation; mind you, this is how I see this situation. Touma's Imagine Breaker, as described, can stop anything Magical, Psychic, or Divine, but, it cannot stop natural physics unaffected by the previously mentioned forces; Magical, Psychic, or Divine.

Quote:
Originally Posted by stillmissing View Post
Actually no. What I was saying was that if Mikoto's railgun works the way it's technically supposed to, as in she uses her power to accelerate and launch the coin with a flick, then no he can't block it as the author has currently laid out his ability.
Yes, this is true, if we think of Mikoto's attack as a true railgun, Touma should not be able to stop the coin, and in all honesty, it should put a hole right through him. If we look how a railgun really works:

Quote:
A railgun consists of two parallel metal rails (hence the name) connected to an electrical power supply. When a conductive projectile is inserted between the rails (from the end connected to the power supply), it completes the circuit. Electrons flow from the negative terminal of the power supply up the negative rail, across the projectile, and down the positive rail, back to the power supply.

This current makes the railgun behave similar to an electromagnet, creating a powerful magnetic field in the region of the rails up to the position of the projectile. In accordance with the right-hand rule, the magnetic field circulates around each conductor. Since the current is in opposite direction along each rail, the net magnetic field between the rails (B) is directed vertically. In combination with the current (I) across the projectile, this produces a Lorentz force which accelerates the projectile along the rails. There are also forces acting on the rails attempting to push them apart, but since the rails are firmly mounted, they cannot move. The projectile slides up the rails away from the end with the power supply
Try to think of a railgun as a Handgun that uses electricity instead of gunpowder. Since we can now think of a railgun as a handgun; When you fire a gun, after the bullet leaves the chamber and is in the open air, does the gun have anymore effect on the bullet? No it does not. In the case of Mikoto, The Coin is the Bullet, and Mikoto is the gun. The gun supplies the energy needed to propel the bullet and the direction in which it travels, but has no more effect.

But, as we've seen, Touma CAN stop her "bullet" even after it's been fired from the "gun." This means Mikoto is not a TRUE railgun. This is either a mistake on the part of the writer or a mistake on Touma's, Mikoto's, and everyone elses part for not knowing how a railgun works.

Allow me to reiterate on Touma's power, it has been stated that Touma's Imagine Breaker can negate any power Magical, Psychic, or Divine, it has not been stated (or atleast to my knowledge) he can halt natural Physics. Since it's already been shown that Touma can stop Mikoto's coin after it has been fired the only explaination I can come to, is that Mikoto is actively moving/accelerating/guiding the coin to it's destination, hence why, when Touma touches it, it stops instantly. If this is the case, I believe "Patriot Missle" would have been a more fitting title for Mikoto, but lets face it, the title "Railgun" has a better effect.

Well, that's just my take on this situation.

Last edited by Metaneo; 2009-04-16 at 15:48.
Metaneo is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 2009-04-16, 17:18   Link #53
BlueDo
Senior Member
 
 
Join Date: Oct 2008
Wow, the mod actually consented in making a thread for this...
And the debate is still hot
I doubt we will ever come to the conclusion

Anyways, tl;dr the rest of the conversation
To avoid rousing argument, I'll say this:
I'll go with that Touma can block Railgun (or do I...?), just because he said so, and also that it happened in Railgun.
But, it's not like that'll ever happen in any other universe. So w/e

I agree with stillmissing
The author is inconsistent
Get over it
BlueDo is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 2009-04-16, 17:44   Link #54
stillmissing
Senior Member
 
Join Date: Jan 2006
Quote:
Originally Posted by Keroko View Post
And yet he had no problem stopping Misha's water spell, which was manipulated water drawn from the ocean, not magically created water. According to your previously mentioned manipulating fire rather then create it theory, Touma should not be able to do anything about it. This clearly wasn't the case.
No I mentioned that he wouldn't be able to negate the fire, just disrupt the control over it. And he didn't negate the water. He just disrupted her control over it. The water was still there. And yes, her spell is like Sherry's golem and (actively controlled rock) and Mikoto's chainwhip (actively controlled iron sand). The material is real, so Touma can't dispell it, but the motion is guided and controlled by an active supernatural power so Touma can stop it.


I'll try to simplify, Imagine Breaker is a power that destroys the "fake" but cannot affect the "real". Styil's fire and Mikoto's electricity are as "fake" as Hyouka herself. And if Imagine Breaker touches them, they cease to exist.

Sherry's Golem uses real rocks but their shape and motion is "fake" and granted by a constant magical spell. When Touma disrupts that spell, the shape and motion which are "fake" cease to exist, but the rocks which are real remain. Similarly, Accelerator's plasma was real. His method of creating it was "fake" and thus Imagine Breaker could have interfered if Touma had been in position to do so, but the plasma itself was very real, and if Touma had stuck his hand in it, it would have been incinerated.

This is pretty simple so far, but here's where things get slightly more complicated. "Fake" things can have real effects. For instance Hyouka could toss a baseball to Touma. Hyouka is "fake" as is her body, muscles, etc, the ball is real, the force Hyouka generates is also "fake" as a result of the nature of her body, but the acceleration the ball experiences as a result of this force is real.

Hence, when the ball gets to Touma, it's a perfectly real ball obeying standard ballistics and real physics, regardless of how it was pushed in the first place. And of course, he can just catch this ball, but he can't imagine breaker and dispel it's motion at all, only catch it like a normal person catching a normal ball. Similarly, while he can cancel the "fake" motion of Sherry's golem, if it had picked up lamp post and tossed it at him, he'd better have dodged. And this applies to Accelerator as well. He generates a "fake" force, his vector control, and as a result of this sudden force the real object it's applied to experiences a very real acceleration which Touma cannot affect. It's no different than Hyouka tossing the ball, but it is different from the wave, the golem, and the chainwhip which are being actively manipulated by a "fake" power rather than obeying real physical laws.

And this bears repeating, Accelerator pummeled Touma with everything in the vicinity, including tiny rocks. He took a much worse beating in the novel than in the anime, and he couldn't block any of Accelerator's ranged attacks regardless of the size of the object.

editing this to add this:

If you look through the novels you will find inconsistencies in how imagine breaker works. Both in terms of what it blocks and in terms of what it protects against, as the author sometimes seems to forget it's only supposed to negate stuff in contact with his hand no further than his wrist. The explanation I'm trying to give is basically how it seems to work for the most part *currently*. Granted, the author may be explaining more about the nature of Imagine Breaker soon, so things may shift around again, or may finally settle into something definite. We'll see.

Anyway, to wrap things up, if this is all tied to the bridge encounter in railgun, putting aside that it's a version of an existing scene that contradicts canon, honestly, I'm not bothered by him blocking the railgun. I'm used to Imagine Breaker's inconsistencies. What bothers me about that scene is Mikoto firing it at him in the first place. The railgun is a lethal technique, so Mikoto doesn't exactly make a habit of shooting it directly at people. And the manga has her basically shooting it at the back of Touma's head. Not to mention that it's supersonic, so there's no warning from an attack from behind. Looking at that scene, you'd be hard pressed to imagine that Mikoto wasn't trying to murder Touma right there. And since Mikoto has stated clearly that she has no desire to be a murderer, well, the scene is a bit messed up.

Last edited by stillmissing; 2009-04-16 at 18:12. Reason: adding stuff
stillmissing is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 2009-04-16, 21:12   Link #55
Master Assassin
Portable Dude Mk. II
*Artist
 
 
Join Date: Dec 2008
Location: All ghillied up spying on someone ~2,000 yards away using telescope sights.
Age: 25
... Since Touma's ability is kinda inconsistent in what it can do, I can't help but got an assumption that whatever Touma thinks he can and/or wants to block then the Imagine Breaker will, whatever he thinks he can't and/or doesn't want to block then it will not?

Just an assumption.
__________________
I like to run portable on my dude, so I ran while running runs in my portably portable, dude-like dude.

Kazuma Kamachi FC

Since we are all so trigger happy about certain behaviors that we do when talking about his works.

--- This line over here is a placeholder. ----
Master Assassin is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 2009-04-16, 21:27   Link #56
BlueDo
Senior Member
 
 
Join Date: Oct 2008
Quote:
Originally Posted by Soul Assassin View Post
... Since Touma's ability is kinda inconsistent in what it can do, I can't help but got an assumption that whatever Touma thinks he can and/or wants to block then the Imagine Breaker will, whatever he thinks he can't and/or doesn't want to block then it will not?

Just an assumption.
Maybe that's it...
It's Imagine Breaker, perhaps the source is his cynical mindset!
So, if he develops his brain even more, he'll even bend reality if he chooses to reject it!
BlueDo is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 2009-04-16, 22:01   Link #57
KaneDragon
*(RAWR*)&rawr
 
 
Join Date: Dec 2005
Location: middle of nowhere, Virginia
Age: 27
Quote:
Originally Posted by BlueDo View Post
Maybe that's it...
It's Imagine Breaker, perhaps the source is his cynical mindset!
So, if he develops his brain even more, he'll even bend reality if he chooses to reject it!
*cough* Like a certain character in Bleach?

I reject your reality and substitute my own!
__________________
KaneDragon is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 2009-04-16, 22:20   Link #58
Miraluka
18 forever
 
 
Join Date: Jan 2009
Age: 24
So Touma is very dangerous for both magic and science side if he "awaken" his power like Kakine or Accelerator??
Miraluka is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 2009-04-17, 01:04   Link #59
Keroko
Adeptus Animus
*Author
 
 
Join Date: Jan 2007
Age: 26
Quote:
Originally Posted by stillmissing View Post
No I mentioned that he wouldn't be able to negate the fire, just disrupt the control over it. And he didn't negate the water. He just disrupted her control over it. The water was still there. And yes, her spell is like Sherry's golem and (actively controlled rock) and Mikoto's chainwhip (actively controlled iron sand). The material is real, so Touma can't dispell it, but the motion is guided and controlled by an active supernatural power so Touma can stop it.
And yet, he apparently has the ability to reduce its speed and momentum to zero the moment he touches it. As it stands, we have one canon source that confirms it is possible to block a Railgun blast, and three that have Touma say its possible. Yet, we have zero canon sources say it's impossible.

The only thing that currently is saying its impossible are theories, so my standpoint is "It's possible, until proven otherwise."

Perhaps this is also a case where the authors ignorance of what a Railgun is comes into play. If what you say is right, then the author seems to think that a Railgun is constantly controlled by a magnetic field (which the visuals do seem to support) or perhaps merely Mikoto's Railgun works like this, being that it's not even a true Railgun to begin with.

Quote:
Originally Posted by stillmissing View Post
Anyway, to wrap things up, if this is all tied to the bridge encounter in railgun, putting aside that it's a version of an existing scene that contradicts canon, honestly, I'm not bothered by him blocking the railgun. I'm used to Imagine Breaker's inconsistencies. What bothers me about that scene is Mikoto firing it at him in the first place. The railgun is a lethal technique, so Mikoto doesn't exactly make a habit of shooting it directly at people. And the manga has her basically shooting it at the back of Touma's head. Not to mention that it's supersonic, so there's no warning from an attack from behind. Looking at that scene, you'd be hard pressed to imagine that Mikoto wasn't trying to murder Touma right there. And since Mikoto has stated clearly that she has no desire to be a murderer, well, the scene is a bit messed up.
The only explanation I can think of is that something similar happened in the past.
__________________
Keroko is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 2009-04-17, 01:19   Link #60
faiz blaster
Senior Member
 
 
Join Date: Jul 2008
Here is a point that might be worth discussing: when Touma touched Index's Walking Church (her nun clothes), why it was ripped apart and not simply lost its magical properties? I ask because when he touched her cap specifically it still remained in one piece.
faiz blaster is offline   Reply With Quote
Reply

Thread Tools

Posting Rules
You may not post new threads
You may not post replies
You may not post attachments
You may not edit your posts

BB code is On
Smilies are On
[IMG] code is On
HTML code is Off

Forum Jump


All times are GMT -5. The time now is 06:39.


Powered by vBulletin® Version 3.8.7
Copyright ©2000 - 2014, vBulletin Solutions, Inc.
We use Silk.