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Old 2009-04-17, 11:08   Link #2021
Keroko
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Quote:
Originally Posted by arkhangelsk View Post
Try those frames right before. It is extremely clear that the Y-axis (vertical) ))(( (concave) waves came first. Only after the scene cut do you see any of Nanoha's (()) (convex). So, the field was just starting up. If the field started up earlier, we'll expect to see the ))(( crisscrossing as a diagonal.
Or it could mean they just entered the fields radius. Which was my point to begin with.

And even if your theory is right, and that the AMF only activated when Nanoha and Vita entered, it changes nothing. Quoting the DVD booklet:

The high concentration field filling the Cradle that prevents magical bonding.

The reason for not doing a complete cut off is because magic is an extremely efficient and good energy source for Midchildra, and thus is essential to the daily activities and machinery usage of the people on board.

It is thought that the Cradle's crew and knights are trained to resist AMF, and thus can use magic against intruders who are having difficulty using magic, thus increasing the defensive capability of the ground.


"Filling the Cradle." Whether or not the rounds were not around Nanoha doesn't matter. Whether or not they activated the AMF doesn't matter. The AMF fills the entire ship, thus the round would have been inevitably affected. The only reason it didn't disappear was because Nanoha kept pumping more energy into it.

Quote:
Originally Posted by arkhangelsk View Post
Which will be admittedly possible, but it is an enormously adverse situation and thus quite unlikely. It'll require several previous undemonstrated and unstated abilities ... etc.
About as unlikely as Nanoha holding out against the Yami no Sho... oh wait. We're talking about a girl with monstrous magical stamina, remember? It doesn't require several 'undemonstrated' and 'unstated' abilities, it just takes a crapload of magical stamina. Stamina we know she has.

Quote:
Originally Posted by arkhangelsk View Post
Complete failure to even understand what was observed. The Observation was: People crashed and dented Mid Walls at a ridiculous slow speed. That's the complete observation. If anything, humans CAN probably survive impacts at the observed velocity with relative ease, so that isn't the justification for Midcrete or for any impressive qualities of Barrier Jackets for that matter.

Then, when confronted with the show basically SHOWING you that doesn't work, you resort to throwing out data. If my theories are merely unsupported by text, they have the advantage of being consistent with the show. If your theories can be considered supported by the text (even though any quantity was a product of your imagination), it is blasted apart by the show, who wastes no time in showing us its real deceleration handling limitations.
I amended that part later on, adding this:

The theory 'the speed calculations show that couldn't have happened' is irrelevant to begin with, considering we've seen the same thing happening in A's. With earth-made concrete.

So those speeds are speeds that aren't realistic to begin with, showing that your calculations are not reliable.

Quote:
Originally Posted by arkhangelsk View Post
I see that they were only so confident about that stuff that Teana wore a helmet.
And neglected to wear proper bike clothing, which, unless you want half your skin to be smeared on the sidewalk in an accident, is quite needed.

Quote:
Originally Posted by arkhangelsk View Post
For this one: Where is the text supporting that Nanoha can fight through 500 or so meters of AMF to supply her rounds, even in an ideal situation, let alone when she's fighting Vivio. Where was it stated?
Ironically, by the simple fact that it happened. You see, unlike you we are not suggesting an off-scene change. We know there is an AMF in the Cradle, several sources state so ranging from the series to the booklets. My support lies there, I can take the dialog and the booklets and say 'see? an AMF was filling the Cradle.'

You, however, are suggesting that this AMF was turned off. Never was this mentioned, so why should we assume this change happened?

Quote:
Originally Posted by arkhangelsk View Post
When you perform the calculation, it is hard to avoid the conclusion that Fate should just have let her hit the ground. Even if you INSIST on breaking VTL, the ratios are unavoidable.
Yeah, I amended that later. You're right, it's entirely possible for Ginga to have slowed herself down.

Quote:
Originally Posted by arkhangelsk View Post
ROFTLMAO. To say the source is inherently inaccurate, as far as canon is concerned, is in itself an extremely unsupported theory.
Truth is, animation is inherently inaccurate. Myself as someone who has studied it and several other people working in the animation industry have tried to tell you that. We don't work the way you think we do, we don't go "hmm, if I want this plane to fly by at a speed of X, and break the sound barrier, I need to animate Y frames. Now, the size if the plane needs to increase from X pixels to Y in Z frames in order to realistically project it's dimensions" No, if we want a plane to fly by and break the sound barrier, we just animate it in whatever speed we think looks cool, and throw in a sonic boom.

Quote:
Originally Posted by arkhangelsk View Post
Yes. The solution there is that you accept it, and try and see why Nanoha can crack glass and concrete despite the slow speed.
Do tell. My solution is that Nanoha was flying into it with far more force, and that the scene was merely slowed for either dramatic effect or screenfilling, both solutions which you will obviously not accept. Remember, Midcrete won't work here.

Quote:
Originally Posted by arkhangelsk View Post
Responsibility to prove the 10A comes to the person proposing it in the face of an alternative.
You're the one suggesting Nanoha can't do this in the first place despite having nothing to back up the theory (as your entire 'Nanoha can't handle powering scouts while fighting' is nothing but a theory), the responsibility of proving she can't do this lies with you.

Quote:
Originally Posted by arkhangelsk View Post
How about power efficiency. Presumably, the AMF is not free. Leaving them off where they aren't required is just good efficiency.
Except that it's been kind of, you know, stated that it is ship-wide.
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Old 2009-04-17, 11:24   Link #2022
Jimmy C
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Quote:
Originally Posted by arkhangelsk View Post
Responsibility to prove the 10A comes to the person proposing it in the face of an alternative.
S+ mage, more than enough power for the task. I don't consider anything more to be necessary.

Quote:
How about power efficiency. Presumably, the AMF is not free. Leaving them off where they aren't required is just good efficiency.
When your ship is nuclear-powered, would you be worried if you use 2 radars instead of 1? Likewise, with kind of powersource the Cradle has, it can afford it in the interests of making life difficult for its intruders.

Quote:
Remember also that the Cradle's original purpose is not to fight off Nanoha. Originally...
But now Quattro's running the ship and the only magic-users aboard are the intruders and the Saint-King. So why not put up a shipwide AMF to suppress them no matter where they go?

Quote:
The links will be over dozens or hundreds of meters (it is not even clear whether Nanoha can create that long an "extension cord", even in ideal circumstances).
You're thinking in terms of physical lines. Ah, I can join it with this part as well:

Quote:
Another way of limiting the expenditure of little magical round is if it doesn't communicate until it finds a big contact. It is a reasonable strategy - they MUST know by now Quattro has substantial EW capability, and not having it constantly squawk out "radio signals" is going to keep that little round covert from Quattro longer.
I doubt the area to be searched on the ship is large enough to hinder Nanoha's use of W.A.S. If the scouts are further away, she just needs to pump more magic into the link to keep them supplied. But she can only do that if she knew where the scouts were. Therefore the scouts have to at least transmit a carrier signal to report their position at all times. Since they are balls of magic that were cast by Nanoha in the first place, their transmissions can be directional and therefore nearly impossible to detect.

Quote:
I noticed that she was suffering with each hit and blow,
Just because she got knocked around doesn't mean her magic output suddenly plunged. If you got hit with a left hook, does it mean you can't punch back as hard anymore?

Quote:
lost 8% of her magic,
Which was a long-term concern, but it means she still has most of her magic during the battle, correct? That's the important part at that point.

Quote:
could just barely walk,
After walking unsteadily for a moment, she ran down the crater to Vivio. Then, she was floating fine until the heavy AMF came on.

Quote:
and fell asleep when she hit the helo.
Mission complete, everyone safe. She had fought long and hard, so? That she let fatigue take her at this point is irrelevant to how much magic she use. It just shows it was more than "no sweat" to her, but not how much more. And it doesn't change the fact that she was able to give that much during the actual battle. That's the important thing.
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Old 2009-04-17, 13:59   Link #2023
arkhangelsk
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Jimmy C View Post
S+ mage, more than enough power for the task. I don't consider anything more to be necessary.
Wow ... so uh, unsubstantiated.

Quote:
When your ship is nuclear-powered, would you be worried if you use 2 radars instead of 1? Likewise, with kind of powersource the Cradle has, it can afford it in the interests of making life difficult for its intruders.
And make life harder on your own ship?

Quote:
But now Quattro's running the ship and the only magic-users aboard are the intruders and the Saint-King. So why not put up a shipwide AMF to suppress them no matter where they go?
Maybe because she thought it'll make no difference? It is clear that the possibility of little dinky scout rounds didn't occur to her, and so she might have thought that a reactive scheme is just as good as a constant on scheme, if she even thought of that issue at all?

Quote:
You're thinking in terms of physical lines. Ah, I can join it with this part as well:
It is your theory that needs lines. I'm trying to see to it they require the minimum of support (as in none).

Quote:
I doubt the area to be searched on the ship is large enough to hinder Nanoha's use of W.A.S. If the scouts are further away, she just needs to pump more magic into the link to keep them supplied. But she can only do that if she knew where the scouts were. Therefore the scouts have to at least transmit a carrier signal to report their position at all times. Since they are balls of magic that were cast by Nanoha in the first place, their transmissions can be directional and therefore nearly impossible to detect.
That is, if you are right, they are being attrited heavily. If the AMF is at a relatively low setting (I've just been reminded of the booklet, but one that would permit the functioning of magical equipment, as stated in the source), it'll work.

Quote:
Just because she got knocked around doesn't mean her magic output suddenly plunged. If you got hit with a left hook, does it mean you can't punch back as hard anymore?
Quattro was explaining how the reason she's reacting badly is because her drive was well in overstrain.

Quote:
Which was a long-term concern, but it means she still has most of her magic during the battle, correct? That's the important part at that point.
It does mean she didn't have a lot left to waste fighting AMF over 500m extension cords.

Quote:
After walking unsteadily for a moment, she ran down the crater to Vivio. Then, she was floating fine until the heavy AMF came on.
Then why was everyone so worried about her in Ep26.

Quote:
Mission complete, everyone safe. She had fought long and hard, so? That she let fatigue take her at this point is irrelevant to how much magic she use. It just shows it was more than "no sweat" to her, but not how much more. And it doesn't change the fact that she was able to give that much during the actual battle. That's the important thing.
It shows that she was badly overstrained, and probably didn't really have that "10A" freedom of maneuver you purport to have.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Keroko View Post
Or it could mean they just entered the fields radius. Which was my point to begin with.
I already explained the differences here. If they were entering the radius of an activated field, we'll just see the (())s.

Quote:
And even if your theory is right, and that the AMF only activated when Nanoha and Vita entered, it changes nothing. Quoting the DVD booklet:

The high concentration field filling the Cradle that prevents magical bonding.
Well, f*ck, forgot this one. OK, in light of this, I have to agree AMF is present to some degree across at least most of the ship (it clearly isn't filling all of the ship even according to your interpretation, or they won't have made it down a distance before feeling the AMF.)

"High". One of those relative words that are almost useless without a absolute reference. Even if you say Nanoha is very l33t, if this "high concentration" AMF is not breaking up her dinky little scout rounds or the 500m long extension cords even under conditions of drastic geometric advantage, well then this "high" can't be very "high" relative to the standards that count.

It is also clear that even though this is supposed to be a "high" setting, it is still (at least normally) set low enough to not interfere with activities and usage of magical equipment. Which puts a lot of things in perspective.

Quote:
About as unlikely as Nanoha holding out against the Yami no Sho... oh wait. We're talking about a girl with monstrous magical stamina, remember? It doesn't require several 'undemonstrated' and 'unstated' abilities, it just takes a crapload of magical stamina. Stamina we know she has.
We are talking about a girl who is also clearly not going through the AMF like it is nothing. The unstated abilities include the establishment of multi-hundred meter length "extension cords", even in non-AMF conditions.

Quote:
I amended that part later on, adding this:

The theory 'the speed calculations show that couldn't have happened' is irrelevant to begin with, considering we've seen the same thing happening in A's. With earth-made concrete.

So those speeds are speeds that aren't realistic to begin with, showing that your calculations are not reliable.
By Canonicity, you are just going to have to write your solutions within the boundaries of canon. Which means, you can't change the speed in a scene with direct VTL.

Quote:
And neglected to wear proper bike clothing, which, unless you want half your skin to be smeared on the sidewalk in an accident, is quite needed.
Still says tons, though. If they are so confident, the helmet (which is probably the least comfortable thing) would be the first off.

[quote]You, however, are suggesting that this AMF was turned off. Never was this mentioned, so why should we assume this change happened?

Why should we assume the 500m extension cords ... etc that would be required to support the other scenario existed? At least here, the controls are already in place (since they clearly had not turned it up to the "Complete Cutoff" setting, so there are settings).

Quote:
Truth is, animation is inherently inaccurate. Myself as someone who has studied it and several other people working in the animation industry have tried to tell you that. We don't work the way you think we do, we don't go "hmm, if I want this plane to fly by at a speed of X, and break the sound barrier, I need to animate Y frames. Now, the size if the plane needs to increase from X pixels to Y in Z frames in order to realistically project it's dimensions" No, if we want a plane to fly by and break the sound barrier, we just animate it in whatever speed we think looks cool, and throw in a sonic boom.
You will not, however, make it move 5px/sec. You will make it move fast. In any case, you have drawn out a speed, and now it has become reality.

Quote:
Do tell. My solution is that Nanoha was flying into it with far more force, and that the scene was merely slowed for either dramatic effect or screenfilling, both solutions which you will obviously not accept. Remember, Midcrete won't work here.
Might have been more accepting had Nanoha not screeched like a banshee.
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Old 2009-04-17, 22:31   Link #2024
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Originally Posted by arkhangelsk View Post
And make life harder on your own ship?
Even diesel-powered warships carry at least three radars. The Aegis CGs carry five. Nimitz-class carriers carry seven. On top of all the juice needed to run the systems, including EW which sucks up a lot of power.
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Old 2009-04-18, 04:14   Link #2025
Jimmy C
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Originally Posted by arkhangelsk View Post
Well, f*ck, forgot this one. OK, in light of this, I have to agree AMF is present to some degree across at least most of the ship (it clearly isn't filling all of the ship even according to your interpretation, or they won't have made it down a distance before feeling the AMF.)
Yes, thank YOU for finally seeing the light. Now do you accept that Nanoha can and did do all that under a shipwide AMF?

Quote:
We are talking about a girl who is also clearly not going through the AMF like it is nothing. The unstated abilities include the establishment of multi-hundred meter length "extension cords", even in non-AMF conditions.
She may not have been going through it "like it was nothing" but it certainly was within her abilities. It's like the difference in effort for a person to carry 0.5, 50 or 1000 kgs of weight. The first is no sweat, the second takes effort and the third is impossible with just hands. Simply because something isn't "no sweat" doesn't mean it's impossible. Next, that unstated ability must exist simply because there's no other explaination for the spheres to continue to function in a shipwide AMF.
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Old 2009-04-18, 04:22   Link #2026
Keroko
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Originally Posted by Jimmy C View Post
Next, that unstated ability must exist simply because there's no other explaination for the spheres to continue to function in a shipwide AMF.
Not really. This assumes that magic rounds are controlled by 'wires' in the first place, which in itself is only a theory.
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Old 2009-04-18, 05:13   Link #2027
Jimmy C
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They may not be physical wires, but nanoha has to supply them with magic for them to keep functioning. That conduit makes a convinient channel for two way comms as well.
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Old 2009-04-18, 07:47   Link #2028
arkhangelsk
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Originally Posted by Jimmy C View Post
Yes, thank YOU for finally seeing the light.
It is not so much me seeing the light or not. It is the power of canon. It is inadmissible to pick a solution outside the boundaries of canon.

Quote:
Now do you accept that Nanoha can and did do all that under a shipwide AMF?
Yeah sure. Now read the rest of my comments on that section.

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Next, that unstated ability must exist simply because there's no other explaination for the spheres to continue to function in a shipwide AMF.
At least we agree on this basic principle.
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Old 2009-04-18, 08:48   Link #2029
Jimmy C
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It is inadmissible to pick a solution outside the boundaries of canon.
You've been such a master at defining what's "canon" you've been able to reject virtually anything that countered your view of a situation. It was a real eye-opener to see you folding to Keroko's quote with absolutely no comeback.

Quote:
Yeah sure. Now read the rest of my comments on that section.
I believe my lines after what you quoted there are enough of a response. I kept telling you she had enough power to manage it. It may have taken a lot out of her and left long-term consequences, but it wasn't beyond her abilities for the amount of time it took.
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Old 2009-04-19, 14:51   Link #2030
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And I've wandered back. Anyone here know more about the Mariage than 'Belkan zombies' and feel like telling me about them?
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Old 2009-04-19, 14:56   Link #2031
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Might be better to ask someone else but all I know is that they're corpse weapons, and that they release vile substances when they explode...

Kinda like the Boomers in L4D... and hence the reason I like the idea of crossing over Nanoha with L4D...

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Old 2009-04-19, 16:17   Link #2032
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Alright, it's been a LONG time since I've posted in this thread. I came in here a couple minutes ago, plugged Gundam into the search box, and see what it came up with. One of the posts mentioned a Nanoha/Gundam SEED crossover.......anyone mind shedding some light on that?
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Old 2009-04-20, 00:18   Link #2033
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Originally Posted by LoweGear View Post
Might be better to ask someone else but all I know is that they're corpse weapons, and that they release vile substances when they explode...

Kinda like the Boomers in L4D... and hence the reason I like the idea of crossing over Nanoha with L4D...

Not enough Mariage to shoot on Orussia.



@Hayashi: Never actually seen it bear fruit, but I did notice 1/2 chapters in Fanfic thread... and that's about it. Never read them myself. Hope that helps.
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Old 2009-04-20, 02:38   Link #2034
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they release vile substances when they explode...
Great, Catachan Barking Toads...
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Old 2009-04-20, 03:04   Link #2035
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and that they release vile substances when they explode...
They are also able to form thier arms to blades and grenade launchers (or something similiar at last) as it is stated thier weaponry is composed of "Swords and Explosives".

And they are all linked by an network without any individuality (They even look all the same).
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Old 2009-04-20, 03:36   Link #2036
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I'll throw in my 2 cents into the W.A.S. scout round argument. Instead of constantly supplying mana to the scouts, couldn't it be that Nanoha made the scout rounds with a certain amount of energy included with it to transmit data as well as protecting them from the AMF? Like IRL drones that has its own power supply if I'm not mistaken.

If I remember correctly, Nanoha did not deploy all the drones at the same time but one after another. Possible that she was gathering energy from her linker core to create the scort + 'battery'?

I also believe that due to this ("scout and battery"), she resorted to the blaster system just to force more power from her linker core to power her attacks. So while she has a lot (and I do mean a lot as in tremendous amounts) of power, it still wasn't enough after creating so many scouts.
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Old 2009-04-20, 05:59   Link #2037
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It's just that I don't think the scout rounds would have the capacity to hold enough magic to last as long as they did without being recharged by Nanoha continuously.
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Old 2009-04-20, 07:24   Link #2038
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I would agree with Jimmy_C here. depends how AMF works, but if it works by conitnuously destroying the links, well, one will have to continuously pump magic in it.

Last edited by Arkeus; 2009-04-20 at 09:00.
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Old 2009-04-20, 08:38   Link #2039
tshouryuu
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It's just that I don't think the scout rounds would have the capacity to hold enough magic to last as long as they did without being recharged by Nanoha continuously.
Quote:
Originally Posted by Arkeus View Post
I would agree with Jiiny_C here. depends how AMF works, but if it works by conitnuously destroying the links, well, one will have to continuously pump magic in it.
Maybe, maybe not. Size might not matter in this case. We know that despite some creatures have large linker cores, the amount of magic is not that high (A's). A real world example would be nuclear weapons. Relatively small mass, huge energy output. But my examples are not very good ones... linker cores and nuclear weaponry not scout rounds.

Also, if Nanoha has to continuously pump in more mana, would the AMF in the Cradle erode the mana as it travels from Nanoha to the scout round, hence wasting more mana?

Perhaps I need to describe how I view the scout round. Currently my opinion of the scout round consist of a few parts. The scout itself, a dense packet of energy, a renewable shield protecting both scout and energy source and a transmitter. The scout itself is protected against AMF by the shield which is constantly eroded but draws energy/mana from the packet to renew it. It searches the area until the last bits of mana where it simply transmitted a not found to Nanoha before expiring or a target located with the coordinates.
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Old 2009-04-20, 09:03   Link #2040
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Originally Posted by tshouryuu View Post
Perhaps I need to describe how I view the scout round. Currently my opinion of the scout round consist of a few parts. The scout itself, a dense packet of energy, a renewable shield protecting both scout and energy source and a transmitter. The scout itself is protected against AMF by the shield which is constantly eroded but draws energy/mana from the packet to renew it. It searches the area until the last bits of mana where it simply transmitted a not found to Nanoha before expiring or a target located with the coordinates.
it's a interesting view, but i see AMF as much more powerful. We know AMF can counteract a normal shooter in a split second. if the drain is constant, and it searched in the craddle for 10 min (*very* conservative estimate) then it will have the time to maybe erodes 1000 shooters.

There is a limit of how much nanoha can pack into her W.A.S i believe.

Edit: Of course, there is a possibility that it can dissolve a shooter by catostophical failure (i mean it attacks a point hat dissolves everything else), in which case it might be quite a bit slower.
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