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Old 2009-04-17, 01:51   Link #61
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Quote:
Originally Posted by BlueDo View Post
Maybe that's it...
It's Imagine Breaker, perhaps the source is his cynical mindset!
So, if he develops his brain even more, he'll even bend reality if he chooses to reject it!
Quote:
Originally Posted by KaneDragon View Post
*cough* Like a certain character in Bleach?

I reject your reality and substitute my own!
Probably that's why the author didn't go into full detail of Touma's abilities, for fear of the Godmodding Of Touma.
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Old 2009-04-17, 05:28   Link #62
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Last time i was here, i had an argument with a newbie over Toma's powers, now i came back and found a this. LOL

Well, i not gonna get involve for now but i still stand from what i say about Mikoto's railgun and be giving my support to the "No he can't stop Railgun" faction.
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Old 2009-04-17, 14:12   Link #63
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I say Touma can block anything whose origin is within the realm of "supernatural". However, I'm fairly certain he can't stop natural phenomena. So for instance, if a building falls on him, he's screwed.

I don't know if Touma could stop railgun. Depends on whether its motion while in flight is still influenced by Mikoto's power or not. My guess is that Touma could stop any electrical interference (by that I mean any additional acceleration that Mikoto could possibly apply to the object in motion), but not the momentum of the object itself. So if she fired, say, a 500 yen coin at him a sub-sonic speeds, it would hurt. A lot.

Unless plot-kai gets involved then screw it.
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Old 2009-04-18, 04:09   Link #64
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Another conclusion is that Mikoto's Railgun doesn't work like normal Railguns.

The general consensus seems to be that Touma can block things as long as they are affected by a supernatural phenomenon, right? In that case, his ability to block Mikoto's railgun would mean that Mikoto's railgun doesn't work like a normal railgun (accelerate with magnetic fields then fire) but rather the entire process of accelerating, firing and hitting are constantly guided by her powers. The visuals of all sources do support this, as we see constant arcs of electricity along the entire course of the projectile.

This way it makes sense for him to be able to block it, just as he did her iron sand sword, Sheryl's golem and Misha's blast of water, all three of these were manipulated forces and yet by merely canceling the powers manipulating them Touma was able to reduce their momentum to zero.
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Old 2009-04-18, 11:20   Link #65
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Which reminds me... about the projectile Mikoto used, if people still can't agree on Keroko's point.

I suspect what actually hit Touma's hand first was - the launched energy bolt that propelled the projectile, not the projectile itself. And with the energy bolt reaching Touma's right hand first, since its source is from a supernatural cause (Mikoto's power), it became cancelled because of Touma's ability.

My logic is because the coin would be somehow engulfed in the energy bolt (if it doesn't melt/get dissolved due to the high concentration of energy in the bolt) before it hits Touma. And when the energy that hits Touma first gets cancelled, there'll be no more energy to move the coin with a freaking speed that it'll hurt, its velocity will get reduced to an amount - if not zero - that'll enable it to hit Touma harmlessly.
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Last edited by Master Assassin; 2009-04-18 at 11:39.
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Old 2009-04-18, 15:47   Link #66
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Indeed, and in this case we can compare it to Misha's water spell, which also launched existing water at Touma that, as soon as he canceled the magic, also reduced the water to harmless speeds.

This way all of the canon sources are correct, and there is no more conflict. Sounds like a perfect solution to me.
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Old 2009-04-18, 17:01   Link #67
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I think I understand the logic, but just to be sure here are some examples.

1. If someone throws a brick at Touma, he can't stop it with his powers.

2. If someone used any sort of supernatural ability (be it magic or any other type) to continuously push the brick or make the brick go faster, Touma can stop it with his powers.

3. If someone with wind based powers uses a gale to blast a brick at Touma, he can't stop it with his powers.

Last edited by ellifeedn; 2009-04-18 at 18:36.
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Old 2009-04-18, 17:57   Link #68
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Yes, though I'd rephrase point 3 to say "If someone with wind-based powers uses a gale to blast a brick towards Touma, he can't stop it with his powers." just to be a bit more specific
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Old 2009-04-19, 16:53   Link #69
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No la! Why the hell are you comparing IB vs Magic to IB vs ESP? That's just stupid. I mean, come on, surely you have noticed that magical attacks in this series DO NOT FOLLOW THE RULES OF PHYSICS. To make stuff simple:
  • Touma can negate Stiyl's flames because they are MAGICAL in nature, just like Dragon's Breath, Izzard's Ars Magna and w/e.
  • Touma can cancel Misha's water attack because it was held in place and manipulated by MAGIC (I could even argue that that's not really water, just some MAGICAL stuff that looks like water), just like Sherry's Golem (debris held together and powered or controlled by MAGIC) and Index's Walking Church (a purely MAGICAL wardrobe).
  • Touma can dismantle Mikoto's iron chain-whip because it was being held together by electricity which is constantly being supplied by her. Likewise, her electrical bolts are being negated in the same way.

However!
  • Touma cannot, or SHOULD NOT be able to catch a rail gun bullet (the coin) without suffering any serious injuries. If you don't know what a rail gun is or how it works, refer to this or this.
  • Touma should not be able to block any ranged and AoE (area of effect) attacks Accelerator throws at him. Ranged attacks include all matter-based projectiles (from rocks to big balls of plasma) and laser-like (photon manipulation) attacks.

With this, I say the highly controversial scene in the Railgun Manga to be a mistake on the author's part due to not knowing how a railgun works. Basically, if Touma can block a railgun bullet, then he should have no trouble canceling the velocity of Accelerator's I-beams. If you don't know how Accelerator's Redirection ability works, here's a quick description:
Basically, he is able to modify the Velocity (Speed and Direction) and Acceleration (change in Velocty over Time) of all matter and energy in a bubble around him (which also acts as his protective barrier).
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Old 2009-04-19, 17:26   Link #70
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... So now we're down to denying Touma can block Railgun purely because 'it's a psychic power and not magic?'

That's a really weak base for an argument, wouldn't you say?

Again, we have three sources saying he can block it, and one source actually showing he can block it.

But we have ZERO sources showing he CAN'T block it.

Instead of trying to defend the theory that he can't block a Railgun blast with conjecture and denying what all four sources are saying, why not come up with an explanation that he can block it?

Again, every single source, from the anime to the two manga to the novel itself claim that he can block it. There is zero evidence that he can't.
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Old 2009-04-19, 20:05   Link #71
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Please, don't present these as solid evidence:
Quote:
Originally Posted by Keroko View Post
To Aru Kagaku no Railgun manga chapter 07 page 09:

Admit it, this is a mistake by the artist (Fuyukawa Motoi). Even though the Railgun manga is not technically canon, it is accepted as such because it ties in to the story nicely. However, when there are contradictions between canon and fanon, it is obvious which one you should rely on. (Another more sketchy event I see here is the blocking of shrapnel from Mr. Spoon's teddy bomb -- obviously IB is broken in the Railgun Manga.)

Quote:
Originally Posted by Keroko View Post
To Aru Majutsu no Index manga chapter 02 page 15:



To Aru Majutsu no Index anime episode 01, 11:20 mark:



So it's final. All three sub-sources and the original novel have confirmed that Touma can block a Railgun blast from Mikoto.
And this is what you call Flavor Lore. Just because a character claims he can do _______ does not mean he can actually do it. Likewise, any explanations given by in-universe characters are not to be taken as fact unless proven otherwise by events in the said universe (like how Stiyl and Kaori claimed that Index couldn't hold more than a year's worth of memories).

What description of IB were we given? A very simple one: the ability to negate all magic and ESP. About its ability to negate the divine? Only an assumption made by Touma thanks to Index's comment, and since it seems to be so (negating his luck), then it has to be real (more flavor lore for you).

And yes, my ESP not Magic argument holds because for all instances that he has used or tried to use his IB, the initial description holds and could be easily explained using the natural laws when used against ESP, while things get a little messy when dealing with Magic. Now, give me one excerpt from the novel which specifically depicts him blocking a physical ranged attack made possible with the use of ESP and I'll gladly step down.

Now, there is only one explanation on how he can block the rail gun projectile: it was a mistake, simple as that.

There is zero evidence that he can't? Well now, all I see are claims that he can. Not much evidence there too. Hence we rely on logic.
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Old 2009-04-19, 21:46   Link #72
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Ice Block View Post
[*]Touma cannot, or SHOULD NOT be able to catch a rail gun bullet (the coin) without suffering any serious injuries. If you don't know what a rail gun is or how it works, refer to this or this.[*]Touma should not be able to block any ranged and AoE (area of effect) attacks Accelerator throws at him. Ranged attacks include all matter-based projectiles (from rocks to big balls of plasma) and laser-like (photon manipulation) attacks.
Pity canon has him doing both of these.

He stops a railgun shot.

He blocks some of the Aoe of the Gravity bomb. And telepathy. And the radiant heat from Innocentus and him blocking some of the AoE is the simplest explanation for his survival of the thermobaric explosion in the railyard.

It doesn't help that Touma doesn't know what Imagine Breakers limits are. He just knows his right hand is a focus for it. Observation suggests it sometimes does more than his quick description suggests it should.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Ice Block View Post
Basically, if Touma can block a railgun bullet, then he should have no trouble canceling the velocity of Accelerator's I-beams.
Apart from being half dead from the incident on the bridge and Accelerator's tendancy to spam multiple projectiles at a time. Both of which may have reduced his ability to cope.

I'll point out that Accelerator didn't seem to get a solid hit in despite throwing more than a little in that fight. Either Touma dodged them all or he dodged most and blocked others.
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Old 2009-04-19, 23:56   Link #73
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... Do I have to repeat that what could possibly, and actually, touch Touma first is the power bolt engulfing (and propelling) the speeding projectile and not the projectile itself? So when the power bolt touches Touma's hand it becomes "cancelled" - it loses all of its physical qualities: acceleration, velocity, momentum and kinetic energy - just like that.

But if you add the argument that even as the bolt dissipates into oblivion the projectile used for the railgun can still produce some hurt with the velocity and momentum it had left then I will concur.

Looks like here I can conclude why Misaka is fighting Touma in a very "unsmart" way (being as rash as she is): that everytime she unleashes an attack on Touma based on her powers, every single bit of her electricity that comes in touch with Touma's IB gets cancelled, thus fighting Touma was a great waste of energy (and time) unless she works her way out to get through that annoyance of a hand called the Imagine Breaker. Accelerator on the other hand gets his way easily just because he can use his powers to hurl some actual physical projectiles around to keep Touma under pressure. Note that even though the projectiles are hurled using Accelerator's power, they are moving with a velocity, speed and inertia of their own, enough to cause some real hurt.
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Old 2009-04-20, 01:02   Link #74
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not to mention the number and the weight of the projectiles Accelerator is throwing at him.


When IB contacts with Railgun, its primary effect is negated.

Based on the formula from this, If I = 0, then F = 0.

Sidenote: 空気摩擦でコインが溶けてしまうため射程は50m程。 (atwiki.jp)
It seems the coin will melt after a distance.

Last edited by eiyuu99; 2009-04-20 at 01:43.
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Old 2009-04-20, 03:47   Link #75
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50 meters, according to the Railgun manga.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Ice Block View Post
Please, don't present these as solid evidence:

Admit it, this is a mistake by the artist (Fuyukawa Motoi).
I fail to see the mistake. The novel had Touma say he could block a shot from Mikoto's railgun, Fuyukama and his team (you didn't think a manga was a one-man thing, did you?) applied what the novel told them. Considering Kamachi never corrected them on that, I'd actually say that this event making it into the manga proves that it's possible.

What you are doing is taking a theory and presenting it as a fact. There is zero proof that Touma can't block a shot from a Railgun aside from theories.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Ice Block View Post
And this is what you call Flavor Lore. Just because a character claims he can do _______ does not mean he can actually do it. Likewise, any explanations given by in-universe characters are not to be taken as fact unless proven otherwise by events in the said universe (like how Stiyl and Kaori claimed that Index couldn't hold more than a year's worth of memories).
On the contrary, it's the exact opposite. A characters words are to be taken as fact until the statement is proven false. Otherwise you'd be opening a pit hole that makes virtually any debate useless, as any explanation for events can be devaluated by saying 'the character is lying' or 'the character does not know what he/she is talking about'. It is undermining the number one source of information in any media product: The characters.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Ice Block View Post
And yes, my ESP not Magic argument holds because for all instances that he has used or tried to use his IB, the initial description holds and could be easily explained using the natural laws when used against ESP, while things get a little messy when dealing with Magic. Now, give me one excerpt from the novel which specifically depicts him blocking a physical ranged attack made possible with the use of ESP and I'll gladly step down.
Being that I neither own the novels not posses a shred of knowledge on the Japanese written language, I'm afraid that is going to be tough for me (the piece of the novel I quoted was translated by someone else).

However, simply claiming 'it was done by magic' does not change that the water spell by Misha was water drawn from the ocean and manipulated by her magic. Magic or ESP, the effect of these attacks are the same: A physical attack manipulated by supernatural force. Even if Touma were to cancel the magic, this should not magically -pardon the pun- reduce the force of the water by any means. It should still have the momentum to crash into Touma with the same force as when it was shot by him. It did not. The natural water manipulated by a supernatural force was reduced to non-lethal velocity merely by touching the imagine breaker.

And according to the laws of physics Mikoto's Railgun when properly analyzed should not even work. All she does is charge a coin and flick it. There are no rails to conduct the currents and accelerate the coin (by the way, those conductors would suffer major damage due to the heat released by the coin, thus even if she would be using her hands as a replacement, she would be frying them) and there is no recoil, despite a real railgun producing recoil equal to the force propelling the projectile (ergo, Mikoto should be flying backwards almost as fast as the coin she launched). Yet all of this doesn't seem to stop Mikoto from causally flicking coins without any side effect. Even ESP goes 'Lol! Physics!' pretty often, so using the "physics dictate that he can't!" argument is quite moot.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Ice Block View Post
Now, there is only one explanation on how he can block the rail gun projectile: it was a mistake, simple as that.
A mistake the original creator did not see fit to correct?

Quote:
Originally Posted by Ice Block View Post
There is zero evidence that he can't? Well now, all I see are claims that he can. Not much evidence there too. Hence we rely on logic.
Three sources that claim, one source that proves, and no claims nor proof that he can't. You're throwing away four sources of evidence for mere conjecture.
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Old 2009-04-20, 08:24   Link #76
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... I think I'm reading so much details I can barely make up (even I am starting to not understand my own explanations XD) simpler statements. Aah, information overflow, information overflow.

... Imagine Breaker. Hmm.

Imagine, Breaker.

So it is something that breaks imaginations, or so how it appears to me. From the way it sounds, it can block powers that was produced by someone's imagination that tries to directly apply to him - or to be accurate, intention towards him no matter what the "intention" is.

So it blocks magic because it came from a source of power created from the intention to affect him directly.

And it also blocks esper abilities because they came from a source of power created from the intention to affect him directly.

So what it actually blocks is what the people intend to do with him with their powers directly used on him.

Examples of use:
  • Mikoto intends to use the Railgun on him and so fires him a blast. The Railgun is the materialization of her intents and is trying to affect Touma directly. Since such is the nature of Mikoto's attack, his IB basically says "Oh no, you don't," to the railgun.
  • Stiyl intends to use his magic powers to incinerate Touma, and his fire element attacks are of course a materialization of his intents. As you can see how clear his intents are, of course the same response is invoked by his IB. About Innocentius, since it can infinitely regenerate itself as long as the runes are still intact in its area of effect, the reason why Touma had to run from it is because he is getting overwhelmed by the heat it causes, which is the collateral damage gained from having to face a literal wave of flames continuously. Not to mention the fire which started from burning the rest of the building...
  • Sherry Cromwell (spelling? I forgot ^^; ) controls her golem with magic, and the golem is a materialization of her intents; although Touma will still have to touch its weak points (where runes are placed on the Golem's body) to dismantle its function, since it is where Sherry's will are directly being placed upon her use of her magic.
  • Kuroko wants, and I repeat, wants to teleport Touma away, and the ability is a realization of what she intends to do to Touma. Since IB blocks the effects of any "intents" trying to be placed directly upon him be it good or bad, it gets cancelled.

Note that he:
  • can't block physical attacks because the attacking matter is already in natural existence and is not materialized from "intentions" the attacker intend to do to him,
  • can't block Accelerator's projectiles because he only merely uses his power to hurl an already existing object that can cause harm. Since the object doesn't have any "intentions" of its own and is moving merely because of something forced it to move to him,
  • can block the Railgun even though the coin was used as a projectile because - what actually touched him before the coin is the electric bolt that propels it - which is a materialization of Mikoto's intent. Mikoto's whole Railgun is the material form of what she wants to do to Touma too, so when the coin becomes part of the Railgun... so yea. Do not confuse the coin's predicaments with the stuff that came crashing down to Touma and intends to squish him that is moved by Accelerator's powers (which acts like a crane for him).

TL;DR Touma actually destroys the materialization of "imaginations" or, to be exact, "intentions" that are forced upon him. Like, what if an esper wants to "psychically" or a magician wants to "magically" rape (sorry for my choice of verbs ) him? He can stop it from happening.
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Old 2009-04-20, 08:30   Link #77
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God i getting confuse with all of these explanations, theories, proofs, claims, contradictions etc.
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Old 2009-04-20, 08:37   Link #78
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Then how simpler you want it to be, if I may ask?

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Old 2009-04-20, 10:55   Link #79
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zzz.... honestly until the author decides to explain exactly how all there skills work down to the finest detail everything is just opinionated conjecture.


the issue that everyone has comes down to if X ability behaves with actual physics like that object of type actually would, from what has been explained of imagine breaker it (cancelling) shouldn't work.


The issue is none of there abilities have a exact reference to RL, and although general information is provided for there abilities we don't have the exact parameters of what there doing. We also really don't know what the exact parameters of 'imagine breaker' are other then what XYZ characters think it does and what we have seen it stop.

So in short, imagine breaker stops the authors imagination and does everything the author wants it to do nothing more nothing less. It may not make sense to us given what we know but it doesn't matter in the end.
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Old 2009-04-20, 17:35   Link #80
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Soul Assassin View Post
... Imagine Breaker. Hmm.

Imagine, Breaker.

So it is something that breaks imaginations, or so how it appears to me. From the way it sounds, it can block powers that was produced by someone's imagination that tries to directly apply to him - or to be accurate, intention towards him no matter what the "intention" is.

Spoiler for Wiki and TvTropes:


Also I remember that Vent know some things about the IB that Touma don't.

Last edited by Miraluka; 2009-04-20 at 17:50.
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