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Old 2009-04-19, 01:11   Link #2921
Fweakin
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Originally Posted by porous_shield View Post
Why was that man near the end so adament that everyone go to the spring? Was it because it was mandatory in the country he came from (the soldier that Aaeru cuts the hands off of said in their country it was done at birth) or was it because he wanted to dismantle what he considered the military of their country by taking away their fliers (makes sense if the Simoun were such a pest).
I figured it was the ultimate in risk management, and less of a cultural thing. They didn't want to relinquish control of the machinery as technology was their domain. I think it was the opening monologue that stated that they were the most technologically superior. The only way to effectively neutralise the power that Chor Tempest had was ensure the priestesses were ineligible to fly them. Hence the pressure to go to the spring.
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Old 2009-04-19, 16:35   Link #2922
WanderingKnight
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Being Atheist I can't rationally accept that being an eternal maiden is some sort of heaven. At best it's merged with the timestream, become one with their "deity." At worse, they are simply gone....just gone. They have become eternal maiden because they will not become adults and in everyone's memory be maiden for eternity. Also, because of the war and how it changed things, they were the last siblya. The last dance is symbolic of how short adolescence is and how abruptly it ends.
What part of the show made you interpret that?

The whole show we were presented with the anxiety of young people afraid to grow up. Not growing up is a triumph Aaeru and Neviril achieve--they live on, but they stay children. Your wanting to put your atheist perception through everything, as if the show somehow is making a moral advocacy against atheism, is ruining your enjoyment of the ending.

And as I say, I'm an atheist. But I don't see anything remotely related to atheism or religion in the idea of eternal childhood being something good, which is, in the end and simplifying a lot of conflicts, the only "polemic" idea presented by the show at large.
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Old 2009-04-19, 22:09   Link #2923
porous_shield
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[QUOTE]The whole show we were presented with the anxiety of young people afraid to grow up. Not growing up is a triumph Aaeru and Neviril achieve--they live on, but they stay children. [QUOTE]

I don't know where you got that from. Yes, they're apphrensive about growing up but I didn't say anything about their growing up being a triumph.

Quote:
Your wanting to put your atheist perception through everything, as if the show somehow is making a moral advocacy against atheism, is ruining your enjoyment of the ending.
Atheism is a lens I view the world through, it's not something I choose to add to this show or that. It's impossible for me to do otherwise. How has anything I said been about the show being morally advocate against atheism? I simply stated that it was a very bittersweet and sad anime for me to sit through.

Quote:
And as I say, I'm an atheist. But I don't see anything remotely related to atheism or religion in the idea of eternal childhood being something good, which is, in the end and simplifying a lot of conflicts, the only "polemic" idea presented by the show at large.
Simoun isn't preachy and leaves it up to the viewer what to think of the themes it presents. If you have race relations on the brain, that is what the show will be about to you.
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Old 2009-04-19, 22:33   Link #2924
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I don't know where you got that from.
Umm, the show itself? It's probably the most important point of conflict in the whole series. Virtually every character's conflict is somehow related with the anxiety of growing up and the sadness of leaving childhood behind and becoming an adult burdened by the chains of society. Coupled with the fact that the path towards becoming an adult is portrayed in such a conflicting way, what Neviril and Aaeru achieve comes off as nothing but pure victory.

I don't understand how you keep on seeing Aaeru's and Neviril's as a sad fate. I mean, I understand how you can personally think so, but I don't really get where the show actually implies that.

Quote:
Atheism is a lens I view the world through
Yes, but this isn't really the world. It's a fiction. And nothing stated in the show has anything remotely having to do with your (non) religious beliefs.

I mean, what I'm asking is not too hard to do. People who read my discussions in this forum about religion and whatnot can see that I'm rather outspoken about my disdain towards any sort of religious organization... but somehow, I didn't feel compelled to even think about atheism or whatever religion I hold while I was watching the series. The fact that you are makes me think that you're really having difficulties seeing the piece as a merely fictional one, or for some reason want to plunge in your convictions wherever and whenever you have the chance to.

There are ways to understand the relationship between the portraying of a religion in a fictional artwork and the real world, but that says more about the authors and the society the authors live and were born in than about the show itself.
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Old 2009-04-19, 23:24   Link #2925
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lol

identifying yourself by atheism is really something, considering that nowadays no one even uses it to identify metaphysics doctrines. perhaps back in the 19th century when god was the most important metaphysical division, but not today. there are way more interesting variables out there than god. perhaps you mean by atheist physicalist or naturalist, but simoun's metaphysics is scifi more than spiritual mysticism.
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Old 2009-04-19, 23:26   Link #2926
porous_shield
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mean, what I'm asking is not too hard to do. People who read my discussions in this forum about religion and whatnot can see that I'm rather outspoken about my disdain towards any sort of religious organization... but somehow, I didn't feel compelled to even think about atheism or whatever religion I hold while I was watching the series. The fact that you are makes me think that you're really having difficulties seeing the piece as a merely fictional one, or for some reason want to plunge in your convictions wherever and whenever you have the chance to.
The pathways in my brain run a certain way and whenever anything needs to be interpreted they must travel these pathways. It is utterly impossible for me to view anything and not bring elements of yourself into it. Atheism is part of my worldview, it's what I grew up with and I'm not consious of it when I make my every decision and react to stimuli. Likewise, I'm not completely conscious of how my metis, male, lower middle class status affect my every decision. You're doing the same, you just aren't aware of it.



t is nothing to do with actually thinking about your religion or lack there off while watching anime. I can't remove it no matter what I do, that is how I see the world. The best I can do is be aware of it, and try not let it temper my interpretation too much. What you are saying is like I'm intentionally holding up atheist ideas to interpret the anime. Some antropologists years ago even tried being psychoanalysed before doing their research in an attempt for a neutral viewpoint. It is utterly impossible to be a neutral spectator like you want to be. There is going to be hints of your world view present no matter how hard you try. I interpreted it a certain way and why I interpreted it this way was, in part, because of my atheism, not the other way around.
Whether you are aware of it or not you are viewing this anime through several lenses, some of which you are aware of and some that you are not.

Simoun was left vague for a reason, and that was for us to come up with our own answers not try to decipher them by who made the anime and when they grew up. If they wanted us to have one intepretation it would have given us concrete answers.
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Old 2009-04-19, 23:29   Link #2927
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Anself, that didn't exactly add to the discussion.
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Old 2009-04-20, 20:22   Link #2928
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The pathways in my brain run a certain way and whenever anything needs to be interpreted they must travel these pathways. It is utterly impossible for me to view anything and not bring elements of yourself into it.
What you're doing is denying the possibility of ever changing your way of thinking. Now, I'm not saying your position as an atheist should change, since I don't believe mine should either. What I'm saying is that you're completely shutting down your interpretation of the world and really, that makes you as short-sighted as I consider all religious nuts to be.

Quote:
Likewise, I'm not completely conscious of how my metis, male, lower middle class status affect my every decision. You're doing the same, you just aren't aware of it.
Huh, I'm perfectly aware of it. You're not going to teach me anything about social determinism, since that's something my very own thoughts go about, too. However, saying that your atheist view of the world imposes upon you the need to interpret every piece of fiction through that lens, even if they make absolutely no emphasis on their religious aspects at all, is shortsighted at best, and downright stupid at worst.

Quote:
Some antropologists years ago even tried being psychoanalysed before doing their research in an attempt for a neutral viewpoint. It is utterly impossible to be a neutral spectator like you want to be.
What the heck? I never ever attempted to paint myself as an objective judge of the series! See, this is what I mean by shortsightedness. Since you seem to believe that a series that portrays a fictitious religion is somehow challenging your atheist interpretation of the world, you believe that every atheist should think the same as you do. And that's bullshit, pure and simple.

I simply don't mind the religious elements (in fact, in many series and pieces of fictional artwork the portraying of a religion is absolutely necessary), since the series is not somehow shoving its religious morals down your throat. I would complain if it did, though--but Simoun clearly doesn't. In fact, when I think about it I really can't find a single moment in the whole series when religion is truly important to the elements it attempts to develop.

What, should I also hate Chikyuu Shoujo Arjuna, one of my favorite series of all time and probably the most aesthetically beautiful anime series ever produced, because it presents some elements that appeal to ecology nuts? It's not even the point of the series.

PS: Hey there, negrepper! How about you think about where we are posting this? This is a discussion forum! Discussion! Yay!
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Last edited by WanderingKnight; 2009-04-20 at 20:35.
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Old 2009-04-20, 20:34   Link #2929
Proto
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It's not even the point of the series.
Knowing the director is Shoji Kawamori, I wouldn't be so sure
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Old 2009-04-20, 20:46   Link #2930
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Hmm, really? It took me a few watches to figure it out, but I really don't think that Arjuna was, deep inside, only New Age eco-nut propaganda. I mean, there is so much more to that series... but I digress. That's really a discussion for another thread altogether.
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Old 2009-04-23, 14:28   Link #2931
porous_shield
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Who said anything about social determinism? My original comment was whether anyone else had the same reaction as me to this anime and I then said why I think I had this reaction. you've been interpreting my comments for something they are not since the beginning.

Quote:
What the heck? I never ever attempted to paint myself as an objective judge of the series! See, this is what I mean by shortsightedness. Since you seem to believe that a series that portrays a fictitious religion is somehow challenging your atheist interpretation of the world, you believe that every atheist should think the same as you do. And that's bullshit, pure and simple.
This next quote seems to say that you somehow distanced religion and beliefs from this series and didn't even "think" about your relgion/beliefs while watching Simoun.

Quote:
I didn't feel compelled to even think about atheism or whatever religion I hold while I was watching the series. The fact that you are makes me think that you're really having difficulties seeing the piece as a merely fictional one, or for some reason want to plunge in your convictions wherever and whenever you have the chance to.
You've said a couple of times I have trouble seeing the piece as a merely fictional world, but you are yet to provide any proof. Where's this attitude I'm sensing in all your posts coming from?

How exactly am I plunging my conviction in wherever I can. I watched the series, I wasn't thinking the whole time "how can I bring atheism in here?" and then I had a very sad bittersweet reaction to the ending. I wondered why I had this reaction when other: friends, people on the internet didn't have nearly the same reaction.

How could an anime that leaves most of the interpretation up to the viewer attempt to shove anything down your throat? In a horror movie, if they show someone getting decapitated, then how horrifying that scene is is based on how scary you think decapitations are. If all you hear is the person screaming and they don't show what happens, than many viewers dredge up the most horrifying thing they can think of. Of course the second one is going to be far more scary because it uses your own brain rather than your reaction to what someone else thinks is scary. It's the same with this series, my reaction is not going to be the same as anyone elses because they leave many things up to your own interpretation. I viewed the ending and subconsciously reacted to it; it was only after thinking a while did I realize why I had this reaction.

Why else would my reaction to the girls doing the Ri Marjon and their dance at the end be like daylight and dark to my friends interpretation? He thaught it was happy they got to be eternal maidens and sad that the other girls never got to and had to live on and grow up. I thought that their eternal maiden status wasn't all it was cracked up to be and felt bad for them and though the others had far happier lives.

Then there is another guy I talk to who thinks Nevril and Aaeru were symbolic from the beginning of a state of pure innocent-that they would never attain, and addolescence that they would grow out of. I'm not saying there aren't any holes in these, just that we had different intepretations based on what struck us.
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Old 2009-04-23, 20:07   Link #2932
WanderingKnight
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Who said anything about social determinism?
Umm, yourself? You said you can't help what your reaction towards the anime is because you're an atheist middle class guy.

Quote:
This next quote seems to say that you somehow distanced religion and beliefs from this series and didn't even "think" about your relgion/beliefs while watching Simoun.

Quote:
I didn't feel compelled to even think about atheism or whatever religion I hold while I was watching the series. The fact that you are makes me think that you're really having difficulties seeing the piece as a merely fictional one, or for some reason want to plunge in your convictions wherever and whenever you have the chance to.
You've said a couple of times I have trouble seeing the piece as a merely fictional world, but you are yet to provide any proof.
Your words themselves are the proof! You're saying you can't help but plunge your atheism into Simoun:

Quote:
Being an atheist, the ending was a bitter pill to swallow.
I mean, if that isn't proof enough, I don't even know what kind of point you were trying to make.

Quote:
How could an anime that leaves most of the interpretation up to the viewer attempt to shove anything down your throat?
Eh, I'm not saying it tries to shove anything down your throat, I'm saying that there's a clear main conflict here that makes details like the metaphors used to describe it simply irrelevant. I mean, you could also say Simoun is great only because there's lots of yuri, but I'd still say your opinion is pointless.

Hence that your being an atheist must somehow inevitably make the ending "a bitter pill to swallow" is kinda pointless, because the show doesn't really put any kind of weight in the religious aspects. Show me any major conflict that is irrevocably rooted in the religious nature of the world depicted in Simoun that can't be interpreted as another, even more important conflict that supersets it, and for which religion and/or fantastic events are merely a metaphor.

Quote:
It's the same with this series, my reaction is not going to be the same as anyone elses because they leave many things up to your own interpretation. I viewed the ending and subconsciously reacted to it; it was only after thinking a while did I realize why I had this reaction.
I'm sorry if I didn't make myself clear: I am not arguing whether your reaction is authentic or not, I'm saying that being disappointed at the ending or at the series as a whole because you're an atheist is kinda pointless when you think about

1) The society that spawned Simoun,
2) The conflict that is worked throughout the whole series and that spans the whole cast of characters.

That's all.
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Old 2009-05-30, 14:37   Link #2933
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Hi im looking for the subtitle from episode 1 to 6 does anyone have them thanks
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Old 2009-05-31, 21:06   Link #2934
Proto
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You can find it here
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Old 2009-10-30, 02:04   Link #2935
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When will they make more episodes of Simoun? Will it ever be as popular as Code Geass? Quite a fun show to watch......until the story ended?
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Old 2009-10-30, 13:19   Link #2936
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Old 2009-11-01, 20:23   Link #2937
Kaoru Chujo
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1. Interesting discussion this page, testiness aside. I call myself an atheist, and I guess you'd say I was "middle-class." But this is my favorite show of all time and I liked the ending.

But I'm an open-minded atheist. Although I don't see anything that makes me think a god or magic really exists, I leave the possibility open. It may be true in some way that I haven't conceived of yet. I appreciate Richard Dawkins' writing, and share many of his scientific opinions, but he has always been pretty churlish about this subject. A fundamentalist in his own way.

I probably share all three of the opinions about Simoun's ending that porous_shield mentions: sad, happy, and symbols of eternal innocence.

2. I'm afraid I react badly to a term like "New Age eco-nut propaganda." An objective consideration of our situation, based on the best (as far as I can judge) scientific opinion, reveals that we are in a pretty parlous state, using more resources than is sustainable, especially of petroleum, and contributing to climate change that will be very expensive for everyone and disastrous for some places in the world, which could end up underwater in some cases and rainless in others.

Not that I don't understand a distaste for unreasonability in all its forms. There are a lot of people (on both sides of the ecological debate) who generate more heat than light.

However, Wandering_Knight, for the sake of its beauty (and because I obviously agree with some of your taste), I'll look for Arjuna and see if I understand your negative feelings better after I've seen it, lol.

EDIT: Just watched ep1 of Arjuna, and I definitely see what you mean about beauty, even there. Great drawing and colors, for me. And maybe I see some of the environmental extremism -- visually linking pesticides and worm-like giant monsters that will destroy the earth. But the myth seems fairly glorious to me, so far.
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Old 2009-11-02, 00:27   Link #2938
Proto
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That's what I love about Simoun. It's a show that is so good that its fans can surpass time, space, and 6 month old debates in order to express their love for it.
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Old 2009-11-02, 02:35   Link #2939
Kaoru Chujo
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Originally Posted by Proto View Post
That's what I love about Simoun. It's a show that is so good that its fans can surpass time, space, and 6 month old debates in order to express their love for it.
Lol. And I thought I was more or less keeping up with this thread. I guess I'm remembering the terrific posts by 21stcenturydigitalboy on the Fuzakenna blog, here and here.
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characters/seiyuus: | Mahouka Koukou | Glasslip | Tokyo Ghoul | Sailor Moon Crystal | Locodol | Ao Haru Ride | Hanayamata | Aldnoah.Zero | Nozaki-kun | Magimoji Rurumo | Zankyou no Terror | Tokyo ESP | Rokujouma no Shinryakusha | Love Stage!! | Jinsei | Rail Wars | Blade Dance | Himegoto
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Old 2010-08-20, 12:45   Link #2940
mamina fan
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hi guys i have a question I have been looking for the song The door to a New world and i cant find it any help would be great please
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