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Old 2009-04-20, 09:18   Link #2041
tshouryuu
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Originally Posted by Arkeus View Post
it's a interesting view, but i see AMF as much more powerful. We know AMF can counteract a normal shooter in a split second. if the drain is constant, and it searched in the craddle for 10 min (*very* conservative estimate) then it will have the time to maybe erodes 1000 shooters.

There is a limit of how much nanoha can pack into her W.A.S i believe.

Edit: Of course, there is a possibility that it can dissolve a shooter by catostophical failure (i mean it attacks a point hat dissolves everything else), in which case it might be quite a bit slower.
A shooter yes I agree. It does dissolve quickly. However, a shooter with a shield around it last way longer than a split second so I believe that a scout round with a shield can last quite a while but in the end how long depends on how much Nanoha can cramp into her W.A.S. This is the point where it gets extremely subjective since there are too many unknown factors at work... although some might disagree and just say Nanoha just doesn't have enough power without evidence as to why.
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Old 2009-04-20, 09:22   Link #2042
Arkeus
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Originally Posted by tshouryuu View Post
A shooter yes I agree. It does dissolve quickly. However, a shooter with a shield around it last way longer than a split second so I believe that a scout round with a shield can last quite a while but in the end how long depends on how much Nanoha can cramp into her W.A.S. This is the point where it gets extremely subjective since there are too many unknown factors at work... although some might disagree and just say Nanoha just doesn't have enough power without evidence as to why.
Actually, i do think Nanoha has the power. What i disagree with is that nanoha has the control , and that's purely fanon of me: i believe that one needs greater control in order to condense mana tightly.

if not, it would be one hell of a big W.A.S

I think this fanon theory is supported by the explanation on Divine Buster someone took from somehwere. Don't remember where it was.
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Old 2009-04-20, 09:27   Link #2043
tshouryuu
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Originally Posted by Arkeus View Post
Actually, i do think Nanoha has the power. What i disagree with is that nanoha has the control , and that's purely fanon of me: i believe that one needs greater control in order to condense mana tightly.

if not, it would be one hell of a big W.A.S

I think this fanon theory is supported by the explanation on Divine Buster someone took from somehwere. Don't remember where it was.
Although it was training rounds, Shamal did say Nanoha has good control. Also, denser not bigger for the W.A.S scouts
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Old 2009-04-20, 09:31   Link #2044
Arkeus
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Originally Posted by tshouryuu View Post
Although it was training rounds, Shamal did say Nanoha has good control. Also, denser not bigger for the W.A.S scouts
No, what i meant was that if she couldn't make it dense enough, it would have to be bigger. /me is confusing.

Well...yes, she has *good* control, i agree. But i'd also say that if she can make shooters that are hundreds of times more powerful than normal...it's a shame she doesn't.

Maybe we just haven't seen her needing them, and they take some moment more to do them (though she used her hands to do them iirc, and that was while fighting).
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Old 2009-04-20, 12:13   Link #2045
Kikaifan
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It's also possible that hardening/shielding magical links against AMF simply does not require additional magical power in direct proportion to the resistance (in terms of time before the magical effect is disrupted) granted.

That is, you pack twice as much mana into a spell, but because the first half is just creating the usual effect while the second, added half is purposed towards protecting the effect from AMF rather than simply trying to defeat it by sheer mass the spell actually lasts ten times as long, or whatever.

It's not how big your mana is, it's how you use it.
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Old 2009-04-20, 12:19   Link #2046
Arkeus
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Originally Posted by Kikaifan View Post
That is, you pack twice as much mana into a spell, but because the first half is just creating the usual effect while the second, added half is purposed towards protecting the effect from AMF rather than simply trying to defeat it by sheer mass the spell actually lasts ten times as long, or whatever.

It's not how big your mana is, it's how you use it.
Could be, but that would mean the AMF wouldn't be able to eat the AMF protection.
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Old 2009-04-20, 21:14   Link #2047
tshouryuu
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Originally Posted by Arkeus View Post
Could be, but that would mean the AMF wouldn't be able to eat the AMF protection.
Hence the reason I proposed a renewable shield. The AMF can eat the protection all it likes but since its renewable, the scout is still protected despite AMF.
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Old 2009-04-21, 00:24   Link #2048
arkhangelsk
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Originally Posted by Jimmy C View Post
It's just that I don't think the scout rounds would have the capacity to hold enough magic to last as long as they did without being recharged by Nanoha continuously.
Oh, so THAT's where the limit of your ability to "stretch" is.

From an total energy point of view, though, packing all the energy from the get-go is a much more plausible idea than trying to supply it through this 500m "extension cord" that ITSELF is being bombarded by AMF - as Tshouryuu also pointed out.

Quote:
Originally Posted by tshouryuu View Post
Hence the reason I proposed a renewable shield. The AMF can eat the protection all it likes but since its renewable, the scout is still protected despite AMF.
Agreed on the "battery analogue", but I'm not so sure about the "renewable shield", though. That will imply the ability of the round to self-link "raw" mana into magic inside. With the exception of extremely complicated magics, such as familiars or magical "holograms" like the Wolkenritter, this self-linking ability is not known to exist.

I'll argue that the AMF protection and the various functions are already there to begin with, pre-linked.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Kikaifan View Post
It's also possible that hardening/shielding magical links against AMF simply does not require additional magical power in direct proportion to the resistance (in terms of time before the magical effect is disrupted) granted.

That is, you pack twice as much mana into a spell, but because the first half is just creating the usual effect while the second, added half is purposed towards protecting the effect from AMF rather than simply trying to defeat it by sheer mass the spell actually lasts ten times as long, or whatever.

It's not how big your mana is, it's how you use it.
Possible. It is clear that different magic "materials" so to speak, have different resistances to mana. At the very extreme, we have pseudomatter, which itself seems almost invulnerable to AMF. For example, even the full blown cutoff AMF is not dissolving the barrier jacket or Rein.
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Old 2009-04-21, 01:22   Link #2049
Keroko
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Quote:
Originally Posted by arkhangelsk View Post
From an total energy point of view, though, packing all the energy from the get-go is a much more plausible idea than trying to supply it through this 500m "extension cord" that ITSELF is being bombarded by AMF - as Tshouryuu also pointed out.
If the 'extension cord' is unlinked mana, this shouldn't matter.
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Old 2009-04-21, 01:43   Link #2050
tshouryuu
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Originally Posted by Keroko View Post
If the 'extension cord' is unlinked mana, this shouldn't matter.
There is a small problem Kero-chan~ What is going to link the mana at the scout's end? My "battery" is a packet of already pre-linked mana, a fact which I forgot to point out.
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Old 2009-04-21, 01:50   Link #2051
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LASERS! Lasers solve EVERYTHING!
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Old 2009-04-21, 01:51   Link #2052
Kikaifan
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Is there anything we know uses unlinked mana? Was that the explanation for why standard Belkan knight-buffs aren't affected?

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Originally Posted by AdmiralTigerclaw View Post
LASERS! Lasers solve EVERYTHING!
Haha, you sound like you're channeling General Townes there. "Let me draw a line in the sand, general."
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Old 2009-04-21, 01:55   Link #2053
Keroko
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Yes, there was.


ナックルダスター Knuckle-duster
(StS DVD1)
An impact attack using Revolver Knuckle. Boosts Mana via rotation of the spinner, strengthening the upper body and fists. Destroys the target with a direct attack.
As with this attack, close combat Belkan practitioners are able to fight in a manner that does not rely on mana linkage, in general making it easier for them to deal with Anti Magilink-Fields.

... which, unfortunately, doesn't solve the problem tshouryuu pointed out.

However, tshouryuu's theory also has a problem, as the dialog in episode 25 support the rounds systematically searching the entire ship, not simply running out and pinging.
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Old 2009-04-21, 02:51   Link #2054
Jimmy C
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Quote:
Originally Posted by arkhangelsk View Post
From an total energy point of view, though, packing all the energy from the get-go is a much more plausible idea than trying to supply it through this 500m "extension cord" that ITSELF is being bombarded by AMF - as Tshouryuu also pointed out.
But you see, the scouts would have limited endurance and therefore limited range unless Nanoha packed something like half a Divine Buster into each one. That being the case, they'll never be able to cover areas beyond X distance from her, no matter how many she deploys. But if they're constantly charged by her, they have effectively unlimited range. In addition, they can use the magic supply as a beacon to send reports back to her via directional transmission.
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Old 2009-04-21, 05:06   Link #2055
tshouryuu
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Originally Posted by Keroko View Post
Yes, there was.


ナックルダスター Knuckle-duster
(StS DVD1)
An impact attack using Revolver Knuckle. Boosts Mana via rotation of the spinner, strengthening the upper body and fists. Destroys the target with a direct attack.
As with this attack, close combat Belkan practitioners are able to fight in a manner that does not rely on mana linkage, in general making it easier for them to deal with Anti Magilink-Fields.

... which, unfortunately, doesn't solve the problem tshouryuu pointed out.

However, tshouryuu's theory also has a problem, as the dialog in episode 25 support the rounds systematically searching the entire ship, not simply running out and pinging.
I could simply say that the energy packets with the scouts are very, very densely packed such that they didn't run out before finding Quottro, since if going by the current theory, Nanoha does have that much mana to spare. The only difference is whether Nanoha provides energy constantly or provides it before sending it off.

However, my theory's main problems are figuring out
  1. How much Mana can Nanoha pack into the "battery"
  2. Is the skill need to cast a spell that can auto draw pre linked mana within Nanoha's grasp
  3. And are either of the above even possible in the first place...

Unfortunately I think the answer to all three is "No idea whatsoever/ Your guess is as good as mine/Only 7 Arcs can answer that/...."

Edit: Come to think of it, ^ sort of answers just about everything on this thread.
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Last edited by tshouryuu; 2009-04-21 at 05:10. Reason: Additional thought
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Old 2009-04-21, 06:51   Link #2056
Jimmy C
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There's a limit to how dense nanoha can pack the magic of her spells. Otherwise, her Divine Buster and Starlight Breaker would be narrower than they currently are.
The scouts ought to be a lot larger if they were truely packing enough magic to operate autonomously for as long as they were shown to.
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Old 2009-04-21, 08:19   Link #2057
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Originally Posted by Kikaifan View Post
Haha, you sound like you're channeling General Townes there. "Let me draw a line in the sand, general."
Only because it's true...
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Old 2009-04-21, 08:40   Link #2058
Skane
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Talking

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Only because it's true...
While I have never built that many ICFs in the same mission, I did build up to 9 ICFs before.

IT. WAS. GLORIOUS!

Not to mention that one mission where I had 6 Silos, 6 ICFs and 4 SCUDs. Overkill? No, just making sure.

*sniggles*
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Old 2009-04-21, 08:40   Link #2059
arkhangelsk
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Jimmy C View Post
There's a limit to how dense nanoha can pack the magic of her spells. Otherwise, her Divine Buster and Starlight Breaker would be narrower than they currently are.
The scouts ought to be a lot larger if they were truely packing enough magic to operate autonomously for as long as they were shown to.
A point, but a better way to solve Question 1 is really to ask how much energy is required. And if you don't count the unidentified portion of energy that's used to counter the AMF, the amount of power that's actually required is very small. It is a dinky little scout round. It doesn't explode. It bobs around at a walking pace, it probably doesn't even report back very often to maintain covert ... except for the energy used to counter AMF (which can be solved if we figure the AMF is relatively weak and/or the anti-AMF measures are comprehensive) it can use almost no energy at all, barring an ENORMOUS mass that is totally against its apparent size...

Which is in itself another minus about the whole "extension cord" idea. It just isn't very efficient - most of the wastage is from the AMF and since the round actually needs next to no power, Nanoha needs to be careful. If the AMF strength suddenly deviates from prediction (say a single AMF generator was broken on that multi-hundred year old ship) the extra power might become a power surge that would fry every "circuit" on that silly scout round. POP!

Last edited by arkhangelsk; 2009-04-21 at 08:51.
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Old 2009-04-21, 09:00   Link #2060
Arkeus
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Originally Posted by arkhangelsk View Post
A point, but a better way to solve Question 1 is really to ask how much energy is required. And if you don't count the unidentified portion of energy that's used to counter the AMF, the amount of power that's actually required is very small. It is a dinky little scout round. It doesn't explode. It bobs around at a walking pace, it probably doesn't even report back very often to maintain covert ... except for the energy used to counter AMF (which can be solved if we figure the AMF is relatively weak and/or the anti-AMF measures are comprehensive) it can use almost no energy at all, barring an ENORMOUS mass that is totally against its apparent size...

Which is in itself another minus about the whole "extension cord" idea. It just isn't very efficient - most of the wastage is from the AMF and since the round actually needs next to no power, Nanoha needs to be careful. If the AMF strength suddenly deviates from prediction (say a single AMF generator was broken on that multi-hundred year old ship) the extra power might become a power surge that would fry every "circuit" on that silly scout round. POP!
right. But you are "barring" 99.9999999% of its power use here.

What Jimmy_C and me are saying is that the round would be DE-linked in less than half a second in such AMF without anti-measures.

The Antimeasure themselves would be eaten quickly, too, i believe (but it *is* possible anti-measure don't get eaten, though that would be weird). Which means that, if the rate of AMF is constant, the "scout" would be thousands of times more powerful than a basic Shooter.
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