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Old 2009-04-20, 21:23   Link #481
sakuraame
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Chaos Zangetsu View Post
The offical record of the incident by the Central 46 was that Urahara and Tessai had performed Hollowification research on Shinji and the others. I think Aizen framed them after he got away from Urahara and Tessai to cover his tracks and it would be very believeable since all he had to do was show Shinji and the others or evidence of them being in Urahara's quarters and plus the most ideal person to be able to carry out research like that is the very head of the Research and Technology Department itself, which just happened to be Urahara. I don't think that Central 46 actuallyt knew the truth, so the only thing with evidence they could rely on was Aizen's framing of Urahara and Tessai. Any shinigami involved in the capture or any shinigami not involved would've gotten the same answer if they asked.
I agree that from what we've been shown, Urahara is thought to be the mastermind behind the Hollow experiments. But that knowledge doesn't work with Isshin's presentation of his knowledge on the Vizards. Isshin calls them criminal shinigami that used illegal techniques to acquire hollow powers (I'm paraphrasing). That implies that the Vizards took it upon themselves to actively acquire hollow powers. And in Isshin's understanding, Urahara doesn't necessarily have to play a role. But we know that Central 46 thinks that Urahara experimented on his fellow shingami, turning them into hollows. That would make the Vizards victims. Actively seeking hollow powers and being victims of hollow experimentation are two different explanations that can't both be true. Also Urahara's role is key and I would think that Central 46 would see Urahara as much of a threat as the Vizards that he created, so how can Isshin talk so calmly to Urahara when Urahara is thought to be the mastermind?

The fact that Isshin thinks that Vizard are criminal shinigami and not a product of hollowification experiments means that either only certain people know about Central 46's theory and everyone else was told something different or Central 46 changed their mind about what they thought Vizard were, going from victims to criminals, once they were able to control their hollows... or Kubo is confused. But something must have happened in between because what Isshin thinks Vizard are doesn't really jive with what really happened or with what Central 46 thinks happened.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Kafriel View Post
The charm activated the second Ichigo's body was in immediate danger of dying, and Isshin said it's been 20 years since he turned Shinigami. There were other occasions where he could have transformed, like when Yuzu and karin were at the graveyard, but he didn't-thus we assume his powers were released through Masaki's amulet.
I think connecting the two events is a big jump to make at this point and is circumstantial at best without any further elaboration from Kubo. I thought that Isshin didn't reveal his shinigami nature at the graveyard because he knew that Ichigo was there, thus a shinigami was there to take care of it. It's more questionable why Isshin didn't become a shinigami the first day when Ichigo met Rukia. His family was obviously in danger and Rukia still hadn't shown up. And he was shown bleeding on the floor too. Was he just rusty from not using his powers for so long? But I think being rusty wouldn't stop him if his daughters' souls were going to eaten.

Also the amulet was given to protect Kon and not Ichigo's body, just wanted to point that out. Isshin also gives the amulet back to Kon. If his powers were sealed in the amulet then it would be useless now that Isshin has regained his shinigami form and thus would offer no further protection. Why give it back if it doesn't have any more power in it?
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Old 2009-04-21, 03:27   Link #482
kagato3
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Originally Posted by sakuraame View Post
I think connecting the two events is a big jump to make at this point and is circumstantial at best without any further elaboration from Kubo. I thought that Isshin didn't reveal his shinigami nature at the graveyard because he knew that Ichigo was there, thus a shinigami was there to take care of it. It's more questionable why Isshin didn't become a shinigami the first day when Ichigo met Rukia. His family was obviously in danger and Rukia still hadn't shown up. And he was shown bleeding on the floor too. Was he just rusty from not using his powers for so long? But I think being rusty wouldn't stop him if his daughters' souls were going to eaten.

Also the amulet was given to protect Kon and not Ichigo's body, just wanted to point that out. Isshin also gives the amulet back to Kon. If his powers were sealed in the amulet then it would be useless now that Isshin has regained his shinigami form and thus would offer no further protection. Why give it back if it doesn't have any more power in it?
It's quite clear that
A) Isshin's powers were sealed until recently, Isshin regeted not being able to help his wife.
B) Urahara is the had something to do with both the sealing and unsealing of his powers. As Urahara was afraid he would be blamed if Isshin ended up weaker then he use to be.
C) the charm seems to be nothing more then a ward. most likely both protecting Kon and alerting Isshin that he is in danger. Also It is highly unlikely the charm had anything to do with Isshin regaining his powers since he threw it at GF to protect Kon while already in his shinigami form and reminded him that he needed to take it everywhere.

Theory: Isshin was in the same type of power draining body that rukia was in and only within the time frame shortly after he was attacked in the first chapter swiched out of it and it had taken 3-4 months for him to be back at full power.
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Old 2009-04-21, 07:41   Link #483
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Isshin will fight Aizen soon after the Vaizards show up.

Isshin is probably the same level as Aizen.
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Old 2009-04-21, 21:17   Link #484
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Originally Posted by sakuraame View Post
I agree that from what we've been shown, Urahara is thought to be the mastermind behind the Hollow experiments. But that knowledge doesn't work with Isshin's presentation of his knowledge on the Vizards. Isshin calls them criminal shinigami that used illegal techniques to acquire hollow powers (I'm paraphrasing). That implies that the Vizards took it upon themselves to actively acquire hollow powers. And in Isshin's understanding, Urahara doesn't necessarily have to play a role. But we know that Central 46 thinks that Urahara experimented on his fellow shingami, turning them into hollows. That would make the Vizards victims. Actively seeking hollow powers and being victims of hollow experimentation are two different explanations that can't both be true. Also Urahara's role is key and I would think that Central 46 would see Urahara as much of a threat as the Vizards that he created, so how can Isshin talk so calmly to Urahara when Urahara is thought to be the mastermind
It's because Ishin knew the truth about what happened. He knew Aizen is the one who caused their hollowification. Urahara was involved however by using the Hongyoku(forget what it was spelled like)to stop them from being totally hollowfied thus the vizard were stuck halfway. This would imply that either he didn't know and Urahara told him about it or he kept tabs on Aizen and already knew what he was up to. I believe though that there was another report from Soul Society later on. Read after this next quote to know what I mean.

Quote:
The fact that Isshin thinks that Vizard are criminal shinigami and not a product of hollowification experiments means that either only certain people know about Central 46's theory and everyone else was told something different or Central 46 changed their mind about what they thought Vizard were, going from victims to criminals, once they were able to control their hollows... or Kubo is confused. But something must have happened in between because what Isshin thinks Vizard are doesn't really jive with what really happened or with what Central 46 thinks happened.
I would guess that Central 46 originally thought they became complete hollows or died. Once they discovered that they were alive they wanted them dead so as to bury what happened or because they could present a danger to Soul Society. The Vizards found out the situation and they left Soul Society before they can be pursued.

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Originally Posted by Kafriel View Post
I haven't heard this one before, it could be possible...but Isshin had his powers sealed in the amulet which he ended up holding and eventually giving to Ichigo, so whoever sealed his powers did it on his command.
No, that was simply a ward to protect Ichigo and Kon especially. The only way that charm could've had any real impact on Isshin is if it gathered energy while in Soul Society or it drew on a miniscule part of Ichigo's power constantly while Ichigo wore it. That could've been used maybe to kick start Isshin to get the power to go out of the gigai. That would explain how he became a shinigami soon after Ichigo gave the charm back. However I still don't believe that could be the absolute case.

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Originally Posted by churchblue View Post
Isshin will fight Aizen soon after the Vaizards show up.

Isshin is probably the same level as Aizen.
Possibility but not likely. Isshin might fight Aizen eventually but will lose. It's usually the main character of the story to win against the main bad guy. It's always been Ichigo's job to kill the main bad guy so this time shouldn't be different than past arcs.
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Old 2009-04-21, 21:36   Link #485
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Chaos Zangetsu View Post
It's because Ishin knew the truth about what happened. He knew Aizen is the one who caused their hollowification. Urahara was involved however by using the Hongyoku(forget what it was spelled like)to stop them from being totally hollowfied thus the vizard were stuck halfway. This would imply that either he didn't know and Urahara told him about it or he kept tabs on Aizen and already knew what he was up to. I believe though that there was another report from Soul Society later on. Read after this next quote to know what I mean.
It has yet to be revealed what Isshin’s knowledge about Aizen and the Vizards really is. I agree with Sakuraame that he was probably told something else by Central 46. If Isshin actually knew what Aizen did, I believe he would be much more sympathetic and not refer to them as ‘criminal shinigami’ unless of course, Kubo is very confused and only furthering his reign of King of Inconsistencies. But those are just my thoughts.
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Old 2009-04-21, 22:10   Link #486
sakuraame
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Chaos Zangetsu View Post
It's because Ishin knew the truth about what happened. He knew Aizen is the one who caused their hollowification. Urahara was involved however by using the Hongyoku(forget what it was spelled like)to stop them from being totally hollowfied thus the vizard were stuck halfway. This would imply that either he didn't know and Urahara told him about it or he kept tabs on Aizen and already knew what he was up to. I believe though that there was another report from Soul Society later on. Read after this next quote to know what I mean.
Isshin's statements points to the fact that he doesn't know the truth behind the story of the Vizards. If he did, he would never call them criminal shinigami. This actually makes me question how much, or how little, Isshin actually knows. He probably knows about the existence of the Hougyoku and Aizen's betrayal, but probably not about the true story on the Vizards and thus doesn't know exactly how far back Aizen's treachery extends. If he knew, he would have to know about Urahara's background. Their stories in Vizard history are so intertwined that only knowing one part wouldn't make sense.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Chaos Zangetsu View Post
I would guess that Central 46 originally thought they became complete hollows or died. Once they discovered that they were alive they wanted them dead so as to bury what happened or because they could present a danger to Soul Society. The Vizards found out the situation and they left Soul Society before they can be pursued.
I'm not sure what Central 46 thinks about the Vizard now... or then I guess since they're all dead... but they didn't think that the Vizard were dead. Less than 24 hours lapsed between the beginning of the hollowifcation process and the Urahara and Tessai's sentencing and Tessai had used a forbidden kido spell to freeze their time (I think...). Plus, scouts actually reported as finding "evidence of hollowification experiments" at the 12th division so they were very much alive. At Urahara and Tessai's sentencing they were immediately ordered to be treated as hollows, even though they weren't fully hollow at this point, and exterminated. Urahara was supposed to be stripped of his powers and exiled to the living world and Tessai was supposed to be imprisoned. The Vizards themselves never decided to leave, since they were unconscious/in no condition to make any sort of decision at the time. It was Yourichi that carried them to the safety of the cave under the Soukyoku and saved Urahara and Tessai from Central 46. It was at this point that Urahara announces that he's going to create gigai for all of them so they can escape and figure something out.

I'm curious to see what happened after (how Urahara eventually helps the Vizards, how the Vizards gain control, whether they're in special gigais that they never leave, like how Urahara never seems to leave a gigai but normal people seem to be able to see them and he can materialize his zanpaktou, etc.) and how Isshin comes into play and how he meets Urahara. There is such a huge chunk of time that is missing.
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Last edited by sakuraame; 2009-04-21 at 22:20. Reason: incorrect memory about Tessai and Urahara's original sentencing
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Old 2009-04-22, 20:57   Link #487
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Originally Posted by sakuraame View Post
Isshin's statements points to the fact that he doesn't know the truth behind the story of the Vizards. If he did, he would never call them criminal shinigami. This actually makes me question how much, or how little, Isshin actually knows. He probably knows about the existence of the Hougyoku and Aizen's betrayal, but probably not about the true story on the Vizards and thus doesn't know exactly how far back Aizen's treachery extends. If he knew, he would have to know about Urahara's background. Their stories in Vizard history are so intertwined that only knowing one part wouldn't make sense.
I'm not sure what Central 46 thinks about the Vizard now... or then I guess since they're all dead... but they didn't think that the Vizard were dead. Less than 24 hours lapsed between the beginning of the hollowifcation process and the Urahara and Tessai's sentencing and Tessai had used a forbidden kido spell to freeze their time (I think...). Plus, scouts actually reported as finding "evidence of hollowification experiments" at the 12th division so they were very much alive. At Urahara and Tessai's sentencing they were immediately ordered to be treated as hollows, even though they weren't fully hollow at this point, and exterminated. Urahara was supposed to be stripped of his powers and exiled to the living world and Tessai was supposed to be imprisoned. The Vizards themselves never decided to leave, since they were unconscious/in no condition to make any sort of decision at the time. It was Yourichi that carried them to the safety of the cave under the Soukyoku and saved Urahara and Tessai from Central 46. It was at this point that Urahara announces that he's going to create gigai for all of them so they can escape and figure something out.
Well, this could be put into speculation. This is a senario I thought could fill in what happened. It might not be true, but this is speculation.

We don't know if the vizard woke up after Urahara and Tessai were captured. If they woke up, and they realized what happened, they'd take off their masks because they'd be able to since they only went halfway. Then Yourichi helped get them get away if they weren't strong enough. The hollow masks as far as I know don't just dissapear when you take them off when you're yourself, so they'd remain physical. This would set up the senario of the Soul Society finding the masks for proof and they escape alive. Now if Central 46 said they were victims, they need to find them to prove what happened and if they can't find them, they'd assume they were alive and escaped. If they couldn't even find the hollows they would've turned into or they can't find find their bodies, that would be their only conclusion. That would change their belief to that the Vizard gained those powers through their want and running away because they didn't want to be caught and thus getting a kind of sentence for running away from the authorities. Their new sentence for Urahara and tessai would then be helping them with what they did. We still don't know if they knew that Yourichi was involved. So when they escaped, they just hid and Yoruichi just in case.
Now seeing as we know next to nothing about Isshin, he could've heard the newer report and thus got his opinion.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Bassoonicmayhem View Post
It has yet to be revealed what Isshin’s knowledge about Aizen and the Vizards really is. I agree with Sakuraame that he was probably told something else by Central 46. If Isshin actually knew what Aizen did, I believe he would be much more sympathetic and not refer to them as ‘criminal shinigami’ unless of course, Kubo is very confused and only furthering his reign of King of Inconsistencies. But those are just my thoughts.
Well, I believe he just got told the newer report by Central 46 and Urahara just shut his mouth and didn't try to tell him the real story, but the only problem is how he knew about Aizen?
Also, one startling thing is Isshin knew where the Vizard were all along. In fact, he even knew what their reiatsu was like, since he knew that one of them met up with Ichigo at the exact moment he was busy brushing GF aside like an ant. This saids that he already knew them and where they were all along so when he was still a shinigami, it would've been too easy to tell Central 46. This saids he really didn't think they were guilty or he had some relation to them and was trying to protect them from being found out and could've been found out and had his powers sealed.

Also, as a side note, if the Vizard were actually in those draining bodies, they would become human a long time ago and also would've been undetectable while their powers were being drained(which those gigai do) Therefore, they are in regular ggais like Urahara in that they can use their zanpaktou and powers while being in a human form like Urahara.
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Old 2009-04-22, 21:56   Link #488
sakuraame
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Originally Posted by Chaos Zangetsu View Post
Well, this could be put into speculation. This is a senario I thought could fill in what happened. It might not be true, but this is speculation.

We don't know if the vizard woke up after Urahara and Tessai were captured. If they woke up, and they realized what happened, they'd take off their masks because they'd be able to since they only went halfway. Then Yourichi helped get them get away if they weren't strong enough. The hollow masks as far as I know don't just dissapear when you take them off when you're yourself, so they'd remain physical. This would set up the senario of the Soul Society finding the masks for proof and they escape alive. Now if Central 46 said they were victims, they need to find them to prove what happened and if they can't find them, they'd assume they were alive and escaped. If they couldn't even find the hollows they would've turned into or they can't find find their bodies, that would be their only conclusion. That would change their belief to that the Vizard gained those powers through their want and running away because they didn't want to be caught and thus getting a kind of sentence for running away from the authorities. Their new sentence for Urahara and tessai would then be helping them with what they did. We still don't know if they knew that Yourichi was involved. So when they escaped, they just hid and Yoruichi just in case.
Now seeing as we know next to nothing about Isshin, he could've heard the newer report and thus got his opinion.
I agree that Central 46 probably issued a new report after they escaped because that would be the only way to explain the discrepancy between the two stories. However, I just wanted to point out that there are some obstacles in making your speculation plausible. When Yoruichi brings the Shinji and co. to the cave they look exactly the same as they did when they first started turning into hollows, which insinuates that they didn't wake up and thus didn't leave anything behind. Urahara is accused of conducting experiments on his fellow shinigami and from the way that Central 46 words it, it sounds like they have an "eyewitness" and scouts say they found evidence of hollowifcation experiments at the division, which for Central 46 is enough "proof" to convict. The fact that Vizard disappeared along with Urahara probably changed the sentencing as you pointed out, changing them from victims to criminals, even though Central 46 didn't seem to care all that much during the sentencing as they were to be killed anyways. (Ch. -97)

Also Shinji and co. were still pretty out of it as when Yoruichi brought them to the cave they were just kind of piled together like laundry. Plus they weren't fully Vizard as we understand them right now. Urahara states that his attempt to use the Hougyoku failed which would probably point to them being in the same condition as they were before: incapacitated. The battle to overcome their hollows haven't begun. Hyori took the longest to control hers (13 hours I think?) and from what we've seen with Ichigo's Vizard training, it took all the present Vizard to keep Ichigo busy while he battled. There is no way that all of them could become fully fledged Vizard in the span of less than 24 hours.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Chaos Zangetsu View Post
Well, I believe he just got told the newer report by Central 46 and Urahara just shut his mouth and didn't try to tell him the real story, but the only problem is how he knew about Aizen?
Also, one startling thing is Isshin knew where the Vizard were all along. In fact, he even knew what their reiatsu was like, since he knew that one of them met up with Ichigo at the exact moment he was busy brushing GF aside like an ant. This saids that he already knew them and where they were all along so when he was still a shinigami, it would've been too easy to tell Central 46. This saids he really didn't think they were guilty or he had some relation to them and was trying to protect them from being found out and could've been found out and had his powers sealed.
Isshin knowing about Aizen is weird as you say. I'm not exactly sure where he got his info from. When I first read that chapter (188) I thought that Isshin knew that Aizen was shady for a long time. But since he doesn't know about his involvement with the Vizard, what if he just recently found out about shady Aizen? What if Isshin gets his info from Urahara so he knows what is up with Ichigo in terms of his shinigami activities? Urahara could have just told him the basics. They have obviously talked because Isshin says that Urahara was right that Ichigo would eventually be contacted by the Vizard.

I don't know if Isshin has known where the Vizard were along or that he doesn't think that they were guilty. I still maintain that if he had any inkling that they weren't guilty then he wouldn't call them criminal shinigami or say that "we never found their base of operations nor uncovered their goals. They're a tough one." (Ch. 188) He probably tracked them and pursued them long enough to recognize the combination of hollow and shinigami reiastu. Also he doesn't seem to have any more connection to Soul Society so he isn't really bound to tell them anything now or extensively track them anymore, especially since his son has become a Vizard.
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Old 2009-04-22, 23:08   Link #489
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One thought hit me Urahara was only trying to dehollowfy the vizzards. He also seems not to have been around when the vizzards learned to control their inner hollows since as Ichigo said "if he knew any more he(Urahara) would have told me" durring the time he was haveing issues controling his inner hollow. So maybe the statement Isshin said about the vizzards is both true and missleading. They are outlaws through no fault of their own (as were Urahara and crew) but they may have later used forbiden spells to gain control of their inner hollows.
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Old 2009-04-22, 23:14   Link #490
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Originally Posted by kagato3 View Post
One thought hit me Urahara was only trying to dehollowfy the vizzards. He also seems not to have been around when the vizzards learned to control their inner hollows since as Ichigo said "if he knew any more he(Urahara) would have told me" durring the time he was haveing issues controling his inner hollow. So maybe the statement Isshin said about the vizzards is both true and missleading. They are outlaws through no fault of their own (as were Urahara and crew) but they may have later used forbiden spells to gain control of their inner hollows.
i dont think they used "forbiden spells" to master their inner hollows, that green haired chick could control her inner hollow for 36 hours with out even trying remember? i think its all about willpower
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Old 2009-04-23, 00:08   Link #491
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Originally Posted by Chaos Zangetsu View Post
Well, I believe he just got told the newer report by Central 46 and Urahara just shut his mouth and didn't try to tell him the real story, but the only problem is how he knew about Aizen?
Also, one startling thing is Isshin knew where the Vizard were all along. In fact, he even knew what their reiatsu was like, since he knew that one of them met up with Ichigo at the exact moment he was busy brushing GF aside like an ant. This saids that he already knew them and where they were all along so when he was still a shinigami, it would've been too easy to tell Central 46. This saids he really didn't think they were guilty or he had some relation to them and was trying to protect them from being found out and could've been found out and had his powers sealed.

Also, as a side note, if the Vizard were actually in those draining bodies, they would become human a long time ago and also would've been undetectable while their powers were being drained(which those gigai do) Therefore, they are in regular ggais like Urahara in that they can use their zanpaktou and powers while being in a human form like Urahara.
Well, there is the possibility that Isshin was a part of the Gotei 13, hence his fragmented captains robe. This probably means that he knew Aizen a long time ago and was probably informed by Kisuke that Aizen had the Hōgyoku once Ichigo got back. Since Isshin knew that Ichigo had become a shinigami he probably also knew that Urahara was training him and was informing Isshin of what was happening in the Seireitei while his son was on his… trip. That doesn’t mean that Urahara told him the truth about the Vizards; that’s not in Urahara’s style. He tends to hide the truth from others, the same way he did to Ichigo.

Yes, Isshin can detect a Vizard’s reiatsu; it’s probably very different from that of a Shinigami or a Hollow. He most likely saw the difference in his own son’s reiatsu too and probably connected the dots, or already knew. It doesn’t say anything about whether or not he thinks they’re guilty. Remember, he refers to them in derogatory terminology. So, that leads viewers to believe that he doesn’t know much about the subject. I believe that he probably is trying to figure out what they did to become Vizards, just because his son is one too. He’s probably putting two and two together and seeing that Hollow + Hōgyoku = More developed/powerful Arrancar which probably means Shinigami + Hōgyoku = Vizard I don’t think Isshin is as stupid as he portrays himself to be.

Where is it mentioned that the Vizards are in the ‘draining gigai’ you speak of? They’re just in regular gigai aren’t they? Rukia is the only one that has been con into wearing one of those. The Vizards, I believe, probably, left Japan and went somewhere else into hiding to train and that whatnot. They most likely came back when they either noticed Ichigo’s unnatural reiatsu or Urahara contacted them saying that Aizen had made his move and asked them to help Ichigo/ the world in general.
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Old 2009-04-23, 03:59   Link #492
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Originally Posted by spyte View Post
i dont think they used "forbiden spells" to master their inner hollows, that green haired chick could control her inner hollow for 36 hours with out even trying remember? i think its all about willpower
No, you're thinking of how long she could hold her mask not controling her hollow they all had to fight it and comments durring Ichigo's fight makes it seem what they went through was at least simmiler and it was only 15 hours. And shinji clealy did something that knocked Ichigo out and sent him to his inner world.
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Old 2009-04-23, 15:52   Link #493
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Originally Posted by kagato3 View Post
No, you're thinking of how long she could hold her mask not controling her hollow they all had to fight it and comments durring Ichigo's fight makes it seem what they went through was at least simmiler and it was only 15 hours. And shinji clealy did something that knocked Ichigo out and sent him to his inner world.
the point i was trying to make was that they didnt use forbidden spells to control their hollows. Think about it, the vizards are the first of their kind, before them, ss didnt know it was possible to gain hollow powers. so why would there be a spell to control inner hollows when they never existed before now? and even if there was such a spell, why would it be forbidden?
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Old 2009-04-23, 21:12   Link #494
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Originally Posted by spyte View Post
the point i was trying to make was that they didnt use forbidden spells to control their hollows. Think about it, the vizards are the first of their kind, before them, ss didnt know it was possible to gain hollow powers. so why would there be a spell to control inner hollows when they never existed before now? and even if there was such a spell, why would it be forbidden?
Well, you have to see it from Soul Society's persective. Hollows are evil beings and they fight these beings. While gaining hollow powers would give them great power, there's a question of morality there. A hollow is like a monster so having any sort of relation to hollows would kind of tarnish you and it'd be like you're trying to become like them.
There's also the question that if you gain those powers, would you not be like a hollow or as bad as one? That's why I can see a spell like that being forbidden if there was one(which is possible since Aizen had to use something to hollowify those shinigami in his experiments.
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He’s probably putting two and two together and seeing that Hollow + Hōgyoku = More developed/powerful Arrancar which probably means Shinigami + Hōgyoku = Vizard I don’t think Isshin is as stupid as he portrays himself to be.
There is no Hongyoku in the equation for a Vizard. All the thing does is break the barrier between shinigami and hollow, nothing else. How the Vizard became Vizard was they got stuck in between the barrier as they were turning hollow. The Hongyoku didn't fail. All the Hongyoku did was give the Vizard a fighting chance to become shinigami again by breaking the shinigami/hollow barrier. They were stopped inside that barrier and they were trapped inbetween for the whole while. The Hongyoku failed in that it was only supposed to have the barrier open temporarily but instead it remained open for the Vizard, because they were able to cross inbetween the barrier again and again.

Ichigo however, seems to have completely broken the barrier on his own. He was shinigami until he had to gain his shinigami powers back. He got so close to crossing the barrier that time and perhaps broken it but in the last second turning shinigami again. Then a few times during the bount arc and the SS arc, he turned hollow but held onto human form and by himself crossed back into a shinigami. He was crossing that barrier many times already, but once he mastered his inner hollow, he was able to get into the middle of the barrier and become both Shinigami and Hollow at will thus he became a Vizard.
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Also Shinji and co. were still pretty out of it as when Yoruichi brought them to the cave they were just kind of piled together like laundry. Plus they weren't fully Vizard as we understand them right now. Urahara states that his attempt to use the Hougyoku failed which would probably point to them being in the same condition as they were before: incapacitated. The battle to overcome their hollows haven't begun. Hyori took the longest to control hers (13 hours I think?) and from what we've seen with Ichigo's Vizard training, it took all the present Vizard to keep Ichigo busy while he battled. There is no way that all of them could become fully fledged Vizard in the span of less than 24 hours.
Once the Hongyoku was used, they had already become Vizard. The barrier had been broken but they didn't go completely hollow and they weren't going any further hollow. So the Hongyoku worked to help but it failed because it waas supposed to keep that barrier open temporarily but it was forever broken open for the Vizard. Besides that, when Urahara watched them after he used the Hongyoku, you'd think he'd expect the masks to dissappear if they went back to shinigami but it didn't because for the time being they were stuck inbetween hollow and shinigami and wouldn't gain the ability to go back untila little later, or simply because they were unconsious and Urahara never thought to take the mask off.
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Old 2009-04-24, 01:08   Link #495
sakuraame
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Originally Posted by Chaos Zangetsu View Post
There is no Hongyoku in the equation for a Vizard. All the thing does is break the barrier between shinigami and hollow, nothing else. How the Vizard became Vizard was they got stuck in between the barrier as they were turning hollow. The Hongyoku didn't fail. All the Hongyoku did was give the Vizard a fighting chance to become shinigami again by breaking the shinigami/hollow barrier. They were stopped inside that barrier and they were trapped inbetween for the whole while. The Hongyoku failed in that it was only supposed to have the barrier open temporarily but instead it remained open for the Vizard, because they were able to cross inbetween the barrier again and again.
Granted that specifics on how the Hougyoku works exactly hasn't really been explained by Kubo, your assessment is plausible. It's just that I've always seen the barrier between "shinigami" and "hollow" as a one time deal. That when broken, it's broken. And unless the Hougyoku is capable of reconstructing that barrier it would fail in reversing the hollowifcation process, which was what Urahara was aiming for. I think it's because they choose the word "barrier" to talk about the division between "shinigami" and hollow" that I thought that it would be a one time deal. For me when I think barrier, I think of a wall, that once you knock it down, it's broken until someone rebuilds it and not really like door that can be opened and closed, but the two rooms remain separate. Actually, when I first thought about "barriers" I thought about something else entirely, but there's really no need to talk about shinigami/hollow chastity... (Sorry... I went there... )

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Originally Posted by Chaos Zangetsu View Post
Ichigo however, seems to have completely broken the barrier on his own. He was shinigami until he had to gain his shinigami powers back. He got so close to crossing the barrier that time and perhaps broken it but in the last second turning shinigami again. Then a few times during the bount arc and the SS arc, he turned hollow but held onto human form and by himself crossed back into a shinigami. He was crossing that barrier many times already, but once he mastered his inner hollow, he was able to get into the middle of the barrier and become both Shinigami and Hollow at will thus he became a Vizard.
I think that the barrier was broken when he regained his shinigami powers and ended up happening as a side effect/byproduct of almost turning into a hollow. I believe that he was able to emerge out the shattered shaft as a shinigami because he was able to hold onto his humanity/logic at the last second and thus have his hollow side semi-tamed for the time being. Beginning to turn into a hollow for me signified that the barrier had been breached. I think that from the time that he emerged out of the shattered shaft, he was technically already a Vizard. And same with Shinji and co., I thought that they were technically Vizard when the hollowification process started and not when Urahara used the Hougyoku on them.

I think that the process differed with the Vizard and Ichigo because the Vizard were shinigami when they were being hollowified. Their shinigami powers allow them some venue to fight against the hollowification process and thus were able to remain in half-hollow forms for longer periods of time then Ichigo. It's not that they were in between the barrier, its that their shinigami powers were able to keep the hollows at bay for a while. Ichigo however was a normal human soul when his hollowification process began. He would have turned into a hollow if he didn't break the barrier as it were and become a shinigami, thus effectively keeping his weaker hollow side at bay. At least until it got powerful enough to fight for control and then Ichigo had to physically beat his hollow into submission.

Of course this is all speculation as the exact mechanics of the Hougyoku haven't been revealed, and is not something that I am expecting to be explained in detail anyways.
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Old 2009-05-02, 18:08   Link #496
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My theory for isshin kurosaki

I believe isshin is related to the shiba clan maybe brother or cousin also believe that Isshin might have been one of the kings royal guard however his time as a royal guard ended with the death Kaien Shiba. What I mean is when he found out about Kaien's death he may have abandoned his post as royal guard their for disgracing the Shiba clan maybe he was capture by 13 court guards and put on trial by central 46 his punishment was to be stricken of his powers and banish to the real world for his rest of his life. Note this is the same punishment that was going to be used on Urahara if we recall. As far as his relationship with Ryuken Ishida and just talking out of my ass maybe ryuken is related to Masaki Kurosaki maybe sister this would explain Ichigo's Kurosaki strength that would make him pure blood shinigami and a quincy that would explain why Isshin and Ryuken were questioning each other's parenting methods. Well thats my theory if u have something to contribute to make my theory even better help me out .
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Old 2009-05-02, 21:24   Link #497
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Originally Posted by Siclife6 View Post
I believe isshin is related to the shiba clan maybe brother or cousin also believe that Isshin might have been one of the kings royal guard however his time as a royal guard ended with the death Kaien Shiba. What I mean is when he found out about Kaien's death he may have abandoned his post as royal guard their for disgracing the Shiba clan maybe he was capture by 13 court guards and put on trial by central 46 his punishment was to be stricken of his powers and banish to the real world for his rest of his life. Note this is the same punishment that was going to be used on Urahara if we recall. As far as his relationship with Ryuken Ishida and just talking out of my ass maybe ryuken is related to Masaki Kurosaki maybe sister this would explain Ichigo's Kurosaki strength that would make him pure blood shinigami and a quincy that would explain why Isshin and Ryuken were questioning each other's parenting methods. Well thats my theory if u have something to contribute to make my theory even better help me out .
wow that sure is a ground-breaking theory, its almost like you didnt just re-type what has been said on every single page of this thread at least once
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Old 2009-05-03, 05:34   Link #498
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The shiba part is possible, but Quincy+Shinigami=doomsday.
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Old 2009-05-03, 19:33   Link #499
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Originally Posted by Kafriel View Post
The shiba part is possible, but Quincy+Shinigami=doomsday.
Not to mention that ichigos mom couldn't see the grand fisher, which wouldn't make sense if she was a quincy. Not being able to see hollows would make it hard to be a quincy
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Old 2009-05-03, 23:21   Link #500
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Originally Posted by spyte View Post
Not to mention that ichigos mom couldn't see the grand fisher, which wouldn't make sense if she was a quincy. Not being able to see hollows would make it hard to be a quincy
Well we realy aren't sure about not being able to see GF. She did warn him away from the river edge where GF was and she was able to sheild him with her body from GF something that would be hard to do if she did not know he was there.
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