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Old 2009-04-25, 16:05   Link #61
cynicalicious
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Considering how they were all over the place chronologically in season one, I don't see that they would have any significant problems going back to pick up some of the important stuff they skipped in season four. And yeah, some of this stuff is moderately important if they want to go on to another season, either another 4-5 OVAs or another 13 eps.

It mostly depends on whether they want to completely fixate on the Yumi/Sachiko/Touko thing and just go forward to the end, or if they want to factor in some of the other major stuff that happens as well that isn't related to them. (And there is at least one bombshell remaining that isn't related to the red rose family.)

It's really hard to say if they would have enough material without going back to make a 5th full season or a full OVA run of 5 eps. They would have to leave a lot more stuff in than they did in season 4 if they took that approach. (This is after thinking about how they approached season 4, which was to leave a LOT of stuff on the floor.)

Or if they wanted to, they could just wind the clock back a bit and tackle the Yellow Rose problems. (That is, all of the Yoshino/Nana/Rei stuff that they skipped.) That would give them enough stuff for 2-3 episodes, easily. The Yellow Rose Sigh (Nana and Yoshino's first outing together), The Yellow Rose Date (Yoshino and Chisato, which was funny as hell), and the whole Nana vs. Rei in a Kendo match story. That would set up some important stuff for the last big push that could use a little extra set-up. (But it's not critical.)

Also, they could devote one episode to the White Rose Sigh as well, which has some important backstory for Shimako. (And the first real meeting between Sei and Noriko.) It hints at Shimako's complicated family background. Remember, she's a devout Catholic daughter of a Buddhist temple, and when she was in 6th grade, she had already decided to enter a convent when she grew up, but someone has to inherit the temple... It leaves her very conflicted all the time. They briefly mentioned her brother in season 4, but this story gives you a lot more info about him and her relationship with him.

The White Rose Date (from the scavenger hunt) was interesting, but could probably be skipped. It was a good story, but not great. Shimako always gets the weirdos, is all I'll say about that.

There's a whole Tsutako/Shouko arc (Konno even devoted most of a book to them, IIRC), which they could either put in finally, or leave out. It's a nice story. Shouko is the girl who said she didn't care which bouton picked her in Soeur Audition. That could give you an ep or two.

So that's looking over the stuff they skipped. The major stuff, anyway. There's about 6-8 eps worth of stuff in there, minimum.

Looking ahead, well, I've already covered that in a previous post.

Now, because I mentioned that there was a major bombshell ahead, I will put it in nested spoiler tags. It's somewhat big, but since everyone who reads the books in Japan has known it for 2 years already, I'm not going to play the "Oh, you shouldn't know!" game. Don't read it if you don't want to be spoiled of future events, or read it at your own peril.

Spoiler for Major Spoiler about future events in the books:


That said, the Major Spoiler thing could also be fodder for a *really* good ep or two. Depends on how the producers wanted to handle it.

So yeah, there's a lot of "stuff" out there to work with for a 5th season, but it's all going to depend on how they approach it.
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Old 2009-04-25, 17:43   Link #62
mitsuganae
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Many thanks cynicalicious -- your extensive knowledge of the novels is always greatly appreciated!

If there is another season, I suppose the worst assumption one can make is that they'll only go back for the "dropped" parts of what happened in season 4 only as much as necessary to set up future events. But they should at the very least devote one episode each to the yellow and white rose families. I could see them doing a little conflating if necessary -- for example, somehow incorporating all the necessary Yoshino/Nana/Rei stuff into one episode (probably using the Kendo match as setting, with flashbacks when necessary). And anything that fleshes out Shimako (the most fascinating character to me, even if she can also be the most unreal) can only be a good thing!

I'm soooo not clicking on that spoiler -- I can only assume it's the same *thing* (whatever it is) that okazu mentions (while discussing Twinkle, Twinkle Twirl) that "changes nothing" but is nevertheless a big *thing*.

I too worry about them fixating on the red roses. The lovely thing about the first season and its corresponding novels (and, to a lesser extent, the second season and its corresponding novels) is that, even when they focussed on the other rose families, there was a brief scene or two on how the events of the other roses reflected on Yumi and Sachiko. It was a wonderful way of keeping a balanced ensemble while still keeping the red roses central. My guess is that such an approach would simply not work for the remaining novels, given how convoluted everything seems to have to become.

Really, at this point I'm ready to throw up my arms and just stick to the novels, even if I have to wait years for them to be translated.

P.S.: Are there any other sources for English translations of the novels besides okazu and Baka-Tsuki? If so, please share (or PM if necessary). Many thanks again.

Last edited by mitsuganae; 2009-04-25 at 19:29.
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Old 2009-04-25, 21:53   Link #63
cynicalicious
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Quote:
Originally Posted by mitsuganae View Post
I'm soooo not clicking on that spoiler -- I can only assume it's the same *thing* (whatever it is) that okazu mentions (while discussing Twinkle, Twinkle Twirl) that "changes nothing" but is nevertheless a big *thing*.
Yeah, that would be it. Proceed at your own peril. I present you with the History Eraser Button. Now it's up to you not to touch the beautiful, shiny, candy-like button.

As for my knowledge of the series, meh, it's not that great. (Compared to the average Japanese reader, anyway.) My Japanese is just good enough that I can read the books with some difficulty. A few years back, I was pretty much in the same boat you were in. (Except that I had 4-5 semesters of Japanese in my background.) I've been studying the language in my spare time, and I've got some ability with it, but it's still tricky to read the books and get it all right. I still make a lot of mistakes, but the stuff in the spoiler tags is for the most part accurate enough.

I'm sure someone with better language chops could tear it all to shreds if they wanted to bother with it... but I find that most of those people don't want to bother with telling you this sort of stuff, so I'm doing it as a favor to folks who were always left kind of twisting in the wind, wondering all about this stuff, just kind of living off of crumbs.

A lot of my motivation for learning Japanese was in wanting to master the language. A side benefit was not having to be at the mercy of other people to translate stuff I want to read/watch/listen to. I have to admit I got tired of waiting for other people to tell me stuff I could figure out if I just dropped the doughnut and studied some more.

I have to say this, too. I'm not a big yuri fan. I'm not even a big fan of series like this. I just happen to really like this particular series, because I like the way Konno Oyuki writes, and I like the characters she creates. It's really not the sort of thing I'd usually read. It's actually very odd when I think about it, but there you go.

As for other sources, no, not really. Ziggr did a really good translation of the first book, and that's about it. Google it.

Otherwise, I recommend alljapaneseallthetime.com and just start from there.
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Old 2009-04-26, 01:27   Link #64
mitsuganae
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Quote:
Originally Posted by cynicalicious View Post
I have to say this, too. I'm not a big yuri fan. I'm not even a big fan of series like this. I just happen to really like this particular series, because I like the way Konno Oyuki writes, and I like the characters she creates. It's really not the sort of thing I'd usually read. It's actually very odd when I think about it, but there you go.
Your words apply equally to me!

Konno Oyuki has written a wonderful series of character studies. The characters are all dear to me, even though I probably wouldn't get along with any of them if I met them in real life -- with the possible exceptions of Sachiko and Shimako (though I'm not Yumi or Noriko, so I wouldn't be able to unlock them, alas).

Any of the Marimite novels on my bookshelf would look more out of place than, well, a shoujo novel on Yoshino's bookshelf!
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Old 2009-04-26, 14:05   Link #65
inisipis
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Quote:
Originally Posted by cynicalicious View Post

Spoiler for Major Spoiler about future events in the books:

OH MY GOD! really.

Spoiler for ...:

Last edited by inisipis; 2009-04-27 at 07:20.
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Old 2009-04-26, 20:19   Link #66
cynicalicious
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You might want to put your reactions in a spoiler tag, just in case....
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Old 2009-04-27, 07:21   Link #67
inisipis
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Good point. Might as well.
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Old 2009-08-17, 05:36   Link #68
Vital Remains
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Quote:
Originally Posted by mitsuganae View Post
Hi, brand new member here, so please bear with me. Someone commented in the Season 4 Ep. 13 thread how there is a sense that Yumi is "moving on" from Sachiko to Touko. Without spoiling particular plot points etc., I just wanted to ask readers of the novels if they also get this impression in the last 5-7 novels of the series. I myself am limited to what English translations/summaries appear on the web (okazu and Baka-Tsuki, etc.).

Call me old fashioned, but the crux of the franchise for me has always been the development of the Yumi/Sachiko relationship. Now, I don't view it as a lesbian relationship (neither is the Yumi/Touko one IMHO), but rather as an eloquent apostrophe to romantic friendship (look it up in wikipedia) -- a type of relationship that (for too many reasons) is all too rare in this day and age (alas!).

[quasi-rant mode on]

If there really is a sense that Yumi is "moving on" from Sachiko to Touko in the novels, I must say it makes me worry about Sachiko. I'm not too worried about Yumi -- she's got a great support structure in place, and she has gained so much in confidence and maturity. Despite how much more warm and open Sachiko has become, I still get the impression that only Yumi can completely unlock her heart. Yes, I know where Sachiko will be going for college, but that doesn't make me worry about her any less. Though I could see how it is (in many ways) inevitable, the thought that Touko's presence has diminished Sachiko's place in Yumi's heart just saddens me (for Sachiko's sake) to no small degree.

Of course I'm aware that it is Sachiko herself who pushes Yumi into finding a petite soeur. Aside from that poignant conversation between the two about the importance of love at the end of Soeur Audition (completely and utterly ruined in the anime!), do the novels give any insight into Sachiko's thought process on this matter (forgetting the practical matter of the Yamayuri Council)? Does Sachiko somehow think that she can do nothing more for Yumi, that Yumi is better off with someone else, or that she is being a burden to Yumi? If so, I must disagree with Sachiko herself -- the stories covered in Season 3 touchingly show how the relationship becomes a catalyst for personal growth for both of them. Sheesh, I've succeeded in depressing myself even further!

And if Sachiko ends up being stuck in a loveless marriage with her cousin, that would sadden me even more! No need to address this particular issue -- I'll wait until the last novel is translated.

[quasi-rant mode off]

Mods, please feel free to move this post to another thread if necessary. I myself am unsure whether it belongs in this thread, the Ep. 13 thread, or the Q & A thread.
Just wanted to pop in with my 2 cents as I just finished watching the series. I'm also new to the board so I'm glad to be here. Anyway, this is an excellent post by Mitsuganae and I think you really hit the nail right on the head with regards to the nature of the relationship between Yumi and Sachiko. I agree that their relationship completely encompasses the concept of "romantic friendship" as you mentioned.

Initially when I finished the series, I found my opinion mirrorring that of some other fans in their disappointment that Sachiko seemed to have been relegated to a secondary role in favour of Touko. But when I think about it in retrospect, it's clear that as the series progressed both Yumi and Sachiko have matured and become more confident in themselves and each other. I believe that they each know clearly what they mean to each other and are confident in knowing that as they form and develop new relationships, their fond regard for each other will NEVER DIMINISH. This is how I interpreted Sachiko's willingness to encourage Yumi with regards to Touko and also to remain in the background so to speak.

It's funny how the various fanbases try to categorise their relationship into a "type" of love. On one hand you have those advocating a yuri relationship while others maintain it is exclusively platonic or sisterly. No offence intended to these various camps, but I think these views are too simplistic. My impression is that their affection for each other is so powerful that it transcends these labels. Kind of like a form of love that encompasses all of the above but also exceeds them at the same time, so to speak. So many of their interactions suggest rather blatantly that their feelings for each other exceed simple friendship.

Man, I can't believe that I wrote this much about an anime before, much less a relationship featured in one. I got myself back into the hobby and I'm surprised and glad I found a show of which I have such a high regard for. If you agree/disagree with my opinion, please say so as I 'd like to hear your thoughts.
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