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Old 2009-04-27, 20:08   Link #1081
WanderingKnight
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Yeah, if you like the old Shinji then watch the series. It's still there. This is getting almost tedious as the Fullmetal Alchemist arguments.
No, the problem with that is not that it's just Shinji, it's the entire fucking series.

As much as people hate the whiny aspect of Shinji, they're practically missing the whole point of NGE.

And Anno is an idiot for saying "Eva was getting old". No it wasn't. Masterpieces don't age. The series is as relevant now as it was 15 years ago.
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Old 2009-04-27, 21:04   Link #1082
C.A.
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Originally Posted by WanderingKnight View Post
No, the problem with that is not that it's just Shinji, it's the entire fucking series.

As much as people hate the whiny aspect of Shinji, they're practically missing the whole point of NGE.

And Anno is an idiot for saying "Eva was getting old". No it wasn't. Masterpieces don't age. The series is as relevant now as it was 15 years ago.
I want to know what's this point of NGE that you're seeing.

As far as I know, NGE is the development of Shinji as he gets thrown into a huge mess and responsibilities as he grows up in a world of adults with their own problems. People reflect upon themselves as they watch Shinji deal with the problems he faces. That's the character side of NGE, the plot and mecha side has their own points.

I've seen at least 3 different ways Shinji progressed and developed and how it turned out in the events of EoE. And for alot of us SRW fans, we consider the good ending of SRW Alpha 3 to be the best possible and most satisfying outcome. Where Shinji faced the same problems as he did in the anime, but had positive influence from many other people and through that he was able to straighten out his thoughts and overcome the problems. He took up his responsibility as an EVA pilot and worked with the other Children.

And in EoE, with his will and courage, he was able to reject the 3rd Impact, resync with his EVA and break off from the Tree of Life. He rejected his father who initiated the 3rd Impact for his own selfishness to reunite with Yui and saved humanity. For stopping the 3rd Impact from happening, everyone surrounded and applauded for his courage like what happened in the anime ending, showing that Shinji has finally grown up to be a fine person.

This combination of both endings made this adaptation in SRW Alpha 3 one of the most well liked EVA outcomes.
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Old 2009-04-27, 21:39   Link #1083
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Uh, you're bringing SRW into this? You do realize that's not even canon? And I don't know about it being one of the most well liked EVA outcomes. I've personally never seen it myself, but to me it just sounds like an unrealistically happy ending that completely misses what the anime was going for. And instead just goes for the route of a typical mech story, which is precisely what the anime was deconstructing.

And personally that's the last thing I wanna see happening in Rebuild. If I wanted to see a generic boy coming of age mech story I'd go watch something else like Gundam SEED or TTGL, not freaking Neon Genesis Evangelion.
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Old 2009-04-27, 21:48   Link #1084
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I've seen at least 3 different ways Shinji progressed and developed and how it turned out in the events of EoE. And for alot of us SRW fans, we consider the good ending of SRW Alpha 3 to be the best possible and most satisfying outcome. Where Shinji faced the same problems as he did in the anime, but had positive influence from many other people and through that he was able to straighten out his thoughts and overcome the problems. He took up his responsibility as an EVA pilot and worked with the other Children.
No, you see, that's functional to the way society (and the Japanese society in particular) works.

In the original series, Shinji is nothing like that. Shinji represents the revolution of the alienated individual within society. The realization that something stinks with the way we're being taught to "get over it", proposing the idea that we're being divided by the very society that's supposed to integrate us together. This is nothing groundbreaking in artistic themes in general, but it is notable in anime in particular. See Simoun for a clearer representation of what I mean--both shows touch very similar themes in different ways, even though they're, in outside appearance, completely different beasts.

Nothing of the sort is ever even suggested if Shinji grows up and gets on with his life.
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Old 2009-04-27, 21:53   Link #1085
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lol @ 'canon'.

The point is not whether its canon or whether its on SRW or not, the point is that it can develop another way and it will still be a great outcome. And admitting that you've not seen it, you cannot possibly see whether its generic or not. But it doesn't matter, because again, I'm pointing out that it can be done and be liked.

And with my earlier post, NGE wasn't all that unique, it isn't the only growing up story that goes horribly wrong, Anno was inspired by Tomino's works. Since NGE has already taken such a 'unique' route earlier on, and this is a 'rebuild', you cannot expect it to retell the original story in the same way. And hey, its already different from the original.
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Old 2009-04-27, 21:55   Link #1086
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The point is not whether its canon or whether its on SRW or not, the point is that it can develop another way and it will still be a great outcome.
I don't care if the outcome is great or not. I've enjoyed plenty of classic coming-of-age stories. But that's not what NGE is about.
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Old 2009-04-27, 22:00   Link #1087
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Originally Posted by WanderingKnight View Post
I don't care if the outcome is great or not. I've enjoyed plenty of classic coming-of-age stories. But that's not what NGE is about.
I agree. That's not what the original series is about, but Rebuild is a different version, and i think it doesn't hurt to make something new, honestly. It's rebuild after all, not remake.
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Old 2009-04-27, 22:53   Link #1088
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There will be "something new", it's an alternative retelling after all. But if that something new goes against the whole point of what the entire Neon Genesis Evangelion name has been about up until now, then Gainax would've been better off just making a new unrelated series.

I'll trust that they'll know better than to turn Eva into the exact kind of story that they were deconstructing in the original TV series.

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Originally Posted by WanderingKnight View Post
I don't care if the outcome is great or not. I've enjoyed plenty of classic coming-of-age stories. But that's not what NGE is about.
And yes this pretty much sums up my feelings as well.
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Old 2009-04-27, 23:28   Link #1089
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Oh please, once he kills Touji he'll be back to his emo* self. Hell, kill Touji with Kaworu as a knife and Mari as a napkin.

*hates that world
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Old 2009-04-27, 23:32   Link #1090
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Well if you hate it then don't use it.

And it's not even guarenteed that Touji will die in this version.
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Old 2009-04-27, 23:37   Link #1091
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It's far far too early to predict if and when things come tumbling down in the Rebuild movies, but while I'm sure MANY old-hands like myself expect it (heck, it happened in the manga, which up to a certain point convinced readers it would NOT go through the EoE path), I think I'd like to see something different for a change.
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Old 2009-04-27, 23:51   Link #1092
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Well if you hate it then don't use it.

And it's not even guarenteed that Touji will die in this version.
I said World, not word. The manga version had some unneeded things (Like Kaworu. Seriously, he was...just there. Made Shinji question his sexuality for a tiny bit but that doesn't really affect anything.)

The price for a slightly happier Shinji in the manga was a more terrible outcome later in battles. That's the "Balance" that I'm watching for, if Shinji's live gets any more positive in Rebuild, there's gonna be a bloodbath.
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Old 2009-04-28, 00:07   Link #1093
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Ok I thought that was a typo since emo isn't exactly a world... but sure, whatever.

And how was Kaworu unnecessary in the manga? He still had his role as the final Angel to fullfil and having to kill him still troubled Shinji. Though not nearly as much as in the anime naturally, which in turn made Shinji's breakdown for the EoE portion of the story in the manga much less believable, unfortunately.
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Old 2009-04-28, 00:11   Link #1094
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By unnecessary, I mean his early appearance did almost nothing. Okay, he killed a kitty. That's worth 2 Angels early worth? Really?

Oh, and the yaoi moment but let's not mention that again.
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Old 2009-04-28, 00:13   Link #1095
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Originally Posted by RisArk View Post
I said World, not word. The manga version had some unneeded things (Like Kaworu. Seriously, he was...just there. Made Shinji question his sexuality for a tiny bit but that doesn't really affect anything.)
Uhh no. Kaworu did a lot more than just make Shinji "question his sexuality." Despite his relatively brief appearance, he's a very important (and fascinating) character in both the anime and the manga. I find his interactions with Shinji some of the most insightful and thought-provoking moments in the manga. Hell, Kaworu's death is the final straw that brings Shinji to the brink of a mental breakdown.

Quote:
Originally Posted by WanderingKnight
As much as people hate the whiny aspect of Shinji, they're practically missing the whole point of NGE.
Amen.
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Old 2009-04-28, 00:17   Link #1096
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Uhh no. Kaworu did a lot more than just make Shinji "question his sexuality." Despite his relatively brief appearance, he's a very important (and fascinating) character in both the anime and the manga. Hell, Kaworu's death is the final straw that brings Shinji to the brink of a mental breakdown.
The problem is not the importance of Kaworu himself, but the problem that appearing 2 Angels early did almost nothing different in the end compared to his one-episode anime appearance.

He holds back during Asuka's mind rape, he gets his leg chopped early way early in Rei's final battle, etc. Unlike Kaji who got a nice backstory, he was just...there until all the other Angels were gone.
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Old 2009-04-28, 00:18   Link #1097
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The point of that was to introduce his character earlier so the audience would've more time to get attached to him thus making his sacrifice more impactful. A shame if that wasn't the case with you, but at least to me it was effective.

I still prefer Anime Kaworu's personality, but giving him more screentime to develop his character and to appeal more to the readers, instead of showing up and dying in the same episode, was a good decision on Sadamoto's part. Which leaves me wondering what they'll do with him in Rebuild.
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Old 2009-04-28, 00:23   Link #1098
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Ramp up the creepiness factor? It something that both the TV series and the manga didn't really do too well (except in the latter where he was more, hmm, evil?). It still begs to be seen at this point.
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Old 2009-04-28, 00:24   Link #1099
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Originally Posted by Endless Twilight View Post
Ok I thought that was a typo since emo isn't exactly a world... but sure, whatever.

And how was Kaworu unnecessary in the manga? He still had his role as the final Angel to fullfil and having to kill him still troubled Shinji. Though not nearly as much as in the anime naturally, which in turn made Shinji's breakdown for the EoE portion of the story in the manga much less believable, unfortunately.
It's funny because Sadamoto seems to made this so they can spend more time together and create a bigger bond between them, but his only emphasis was on the fact that Shinji didn't like Kaworu at all. At the end i was even expecting for Shinji to enjoy killing Kaworu...
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Old 2009-04-28, 00:25   Link #1100
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I had no problem with the idea. The execution, though was eh. If he came earlier with the confused, yet caring personality like the anime it would've been awesome.

Instead he comes off as a jealous man-toy. "Stay away from the Third Child, Rei" *cat scratch*
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