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Old 2009-05-01, 00:45   Link #1261
Kaisos Erranon
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It's a bad end in UBW. One of the worse ones in that route, actually.
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Old 2009-05-01, 03:39   Link #1262
Keroko
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Originally Posted by Kaisos Erranon View Post
That's only after Kiritsugu realized what an ass he had been.
True. Idealism has a way of blinding people.

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Also, to further your point, "revenge" would imply that Rin had done something to Sakura necessitating revenge. She really didn't. Sakura was mostly being jealous.
Which is not really any better.

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(Also, doesn't she only rape Rin in a bad end?)
Yup. If you take too long killing Saber you'll arrive too late to help Rin, and Sakura will have 'eaten' her but keeps her consciousness alive so she can torture her for all eternity.
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Old 2009-05-01, 11:39   Link #1263
Nerroth
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And here I was thinking that Sakura at that point was being possessed/influenced by Avenger/'Angra Mainyu'...


The rather important part of the equation in which the spirit of Avenger is clawing its way into Sakura's soul in HF in the way it didn't in Fate and UBW can't be ignored so quickly, can it?
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Old 2009-05-01, 13:29   Link #1264
Kaisos Erranon
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True. Idealism has a way of blinding people.
This may be the entire point of the series. >_>

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Yup. If you take too long killing Saber you'll arrive too late to help Rin, and Sakura will have 'eaten' her but keeps her consciousness alive so she can torture her for all eternity.
Ah, right, Ilya referred to that as the "harem end". What a bitch.

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The rather important part of the equation in which the spirit of Avenger is clawing its way into Sakura's soul in HF in the way it didn't in Fate and UBW can't be ignored so quickly, can it?
No, that's just Sakura going nuts from a combination of over 10 years of torture and the SHEER POWER of infinite prana.

From what I remember reading about F/HA, Avenger really isn't all that bad of a person.
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Old 2009-05-01, 14:03   Link #1265
Nerroth
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No, that's just Sakura going nuts from a combination of over 10 years of torture and the SHEER POWER of infinite prana.

From what I remember reading about F/HA, Avenger really isn't all that bad of a person.
But that doesn't get away from the corruption that his presence in the greater Grail caused.

I mean, Gilgamesh was only able to resist out of sheer willpower - well, being an older legend than Mr. Nailed-Up-Villager might have helped too... but then Gil's no saint to begin with.

Plus, the corrupted Grail's influence was enough to turn both Saber and Berserker, as well as doom Kiritsugu to a slow death (after revealing to him its dark nature back in F/Z) and grant Kotomine an ichor ticker to keep him around long enough for HF5.


It was more than just the amount of prana involved - it was the amply demonstrated malevolence of the burgeoning consciousness within the Grail System that Sakura was exposed to...

...and that, notably, was shown to be cast off (literally) when Shirou used Rule Breaker on him.


And yet, despite all of that, you'd still say that it was all her fault?

(I'd find it hard to imagine many other characters who could have held out as long as she did before succumbing, and who could have been able to find a way out the way she did by HF's not-bad ends.)
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Old 2009-05-01, 15:08   Link #1266
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From what I remember reading about F/HA, Avenger really isn't all that bad of a person.
I haven't played F/HA, but I understand Avanger is another character to be pitied with Sakura. A certain nobody chosen to be the carrier of all evils... I wonder who's to be blamed...
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Old 2009-05-01, 20:02   Link #1267
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What a bitch.
you evil bastard... (xD) (no really D:<)

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and yet, depite all of that, you'd still say that it was all her fault?
we're not saying it was ALL her fault. but she's hardly blameless; part of her was more than accepting of the corruption that was taking over her due to the darkness that was already in her, her depair at her situation and also her desire for more power (to prove to herself she wasn't inferior to Rin, or in fact to anyone)

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I haven't played F/HA, but I understand Avanger is another character to be pitied with Sakura. A certain nobody chosen to be the carrier of all evils... I wonder who's to be blamed...
who to blame? blame the villagers :P
personally i think that considering all that happened to him (mutilated, scapegoated and made to be the most hated thing in existence) it's suprising that he didn't turn out to be a lot more twisted. see sakura? you don't have the worst life
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Old 2009-05-01, 20:51   Link #1268
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This may be the entire point of the series. >_>
Considering nearly every single character in the series falls victim to it (the only exceptions that come to mind are Souchiro and Taiga. Maybe Kotomine too, not too sure about him.) I'm not going to argue that one.

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(I'd find it hard to imagine many other characters who could have held out as long as she did before succumbing, and who could have been able to find a way out the way she did by HF's not-bad ends.)
Gilgamesh, Ilya, Shirou -and by extension of Shirou, Archer as well-, Kotomine (though he's probably more a case of 'can't corrupt what's already corrupt')

... so yeah, considering that just about lists every character that came into contact with the contents, I do consider it Sakura's fault for being consumed by it. I mean, she's the only one who failed not being consumed by it.

Why? Sure, we can say Sakura was too weak to resist. But more in line with what the story tells us, is that Sakura chose to do so.
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Old 2009-05-02, 01:15   Link #1269
Kaisos Erranon
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Considering nearly every single character in the series falls victim to it (the only exceptions that come to mind are Souchiro and Taiga. Maybe Kotomine too, not too sure about him.) I'm not going to argue that one.
Kotomine, is, like, anti-idealism incarnate. He's a sociopath, albeit not a violent one.

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And yet, despite all of that, you'd still say that it was all her fault?
Like other people said, it wasn't ALL her fault, but yes, it was her fault.

The corruption plays off of negative emotions. (Notice that, while Black Saber is certainly evil, she's not nearly as evil as the other evil people.) Sakura was pretty much made of negative emotions at that point, and so...
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Old 2009-05-02, 08:38   Link #1270
Nerroth
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Well, let's see.


For one thing, when I was referring to holding out as long as she did, I was not just talking about the days of the Fifth Heaven's Feel that Sakura had been compelled by Zouken to use the Shadow, but to the eleven years' worth of torture and abuse that she had been put through - since she was, what, five years old or so?

There is not much of a guarantee that, had Rin been the one handed over, or Shirou for that matter, that either of them would have held up against the daily assaults on their very selves without cracking.


And even in comparison to Ilya - yes, the Einzberns were cruel themselves, but for what little consolation it was worth, she was already born as a homunculus, borne from the same genetic stock as the ancestor at the core of the Grail System itself.

She didn't have to be forcibly 'reverse-engineered' after birth the way Sakura was - first when shifting her alignment from a Tohsaka magus to a Matou one, then when she was altered to make her more conducive to hosting the Grail herself.


And yet, after all of that horrific treatment, with hardly any hope of something better, she was still able to hold on to enough of a sense of self to be able to function at least somewhat normally in Fate and UBW - and was pushed over the edge in HF alone.


(I'd argue that in Fate and UBW, she deliberately chose to keep her feelings towards Shirou a secret, since she knew all too well what kind of wretched fate he would have been led towards had Zouken got his claws into him. Despite needing help more desperately than anyone, she was still selfless enough - and strong-willed enough - to, as she would have seen it, spare Shirou that burden.)


The deck had been stacked against her by design for a long time.



Throwing the bulk of the blame on Sakura without taking this into account, and considering her weak when it was a minor miracle that her sense of self hadn't been ground out completely a long time ago, is something I just can't agree with.



As an aside, I really hate the idea that the only way to save Sakura is via the events of HF - it might be a conceit at best, but I believe that there must be at least some way to free a post-Fate or post-UBW Sakura, and give her the kind of life that she deserves...

...and not just because I went and tried to write one for her myself.

For what little it matters.
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Old 2009-05-02, 10:35   Link #1271
Keroko
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Throwing the bulk of the blame on Sakura without taking this into account, and considering her weak when it was a minor miracle that her sense of self hadn't been ground out completely a long time ago, is something I just can't agree with.
If this was aimed at me, you have probably mis-read my post. What I was saying that the way the story tells it, Sakura did not succumb to the corruptive powers of the grail because she was weak, she succumbed because she chose to.

And 'the deck being stacked against her for a long time' is not really a valid excuse considering that in the other routes Sakura has zero problems holding this at bay, even though technically this corruption you are suggesting should have pushed her over the end faster in the other two, as Sakura ends up seeing Shirou stolen away from her. So why didn't the corruption send her off the deep end?

Quite simple, because in the end it was Sakura who chose not to succumb to it.

Yes, she had a sucky life, a life that really makes her murder of Shinji and Zouken no surprise at all, but then she had that same life in Fate and UBW. The fact that it was Sakura who chose to go over the deep end in Heavens Feel, and Heavens Feel alone, does make her guilty of that choice.

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As an aside, I really hate the idea that the only way to save Sakura is via the events of HF - it might be a conceit at best, but I believe that there must be at least some way to free a post-Fate or post-UBW Sakura, and give her the kind of life that she deserves...

...and not just because I went and tried to write one for her myself.

For what little it matters.
... That's the case, isn't it? Zouken dies in the other two routes, so Sakura lives a happy life. Hell, I daresay that if it wasn't for not getting Shirou, her part of the ending in UBW is better then Heavens Feel, as even Shinji is redeemed and starts being the older brother he should have been.
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Old 2009-05-02, 10:44   Link #1272
mAc Chaos
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Kotomine, is, like, anti-idealism incarnate. He's a sociopath, albeit not a violent one.
You think so? I always thought he was idealistic as well, but embodied the opposite ideal of Shirou's.
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Old 2009-05-02, 10:44   Link #1273
Nerroth
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... That's the case, isn't it? Zouken dies in the other two routes, so Sakura lives a happy life. Hell, I daresay that if it wasn't for not getting Shirou, her part of the ending in UBW is better then Heavens Feel, as even Shinji is redeemed and starts being the older brother he should have been.

Where is it confirmed that Zouken dies in the other routes?


(If his consciousness is tied to the presence of the worms - which aren't even known about, let alone removed, in either Fate or UBW, part of him would remain, even if the rest did not.

And even if they weren't, they would still need to be removed, if she wants to have anything approaching a normal life.)


And quite frankly, I don't forgive Shinji so easily - years of abuse do not vanish overnight just because he'd now feel sorry about what he had done.

(As a further aside, I'd argue that he may well be doomed, as Kiritsugu was, due to the Grail exposure - which I wouldn't shed a tear over, frankly.)


Oh, and I might also add that I don't believe that Shirou is the only man on Earth with whom a free Sakura could find happiness. He may have been an important aspect of her life at a critical time, but even if he does end up with Rin, or pine over Saber, Sakura need not be left to live out her days alone.

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If this was aimed at me, you have probably mis-read my post. What I was saying that the way the story tells it, Sakura did not succumb to the corruptive powers of the grail because she was weak, she succumbed because she chose to.

And 'the deck being stacked against her for a long time' is not really a valid excuse considering that in the other routes Sakura has zero problems holding this at bay, even though technically this corruption you are suggesting should have pushed her over the end faster in the other two, as Sakura ends up seeing Shirou stolen away from her. So why didn't the corruption send her off the deep end?

Quite simple, because in the end it was Sakura who chose not to succumb to it.
But in the other routes, she did not have Zouken using her as the Shadow, targeting other Servants (and civilians) the way he did in HF, stacking her full of the sorcerous energy required to eventually let her summon the Grail, and the increased exposure to the burgeoning malevolence within the Grail System to match.

Rather than the chronic, yet relatively low-level, exposure that she suffered otherwise, Zouken had her 'activated' directly this time - and it took its toll.


And by the time Sakura and Shirou actually got together in HF, the cat was out of the bag - whereas in Fate and UBW, Shirou never found out what Zouken had done to her, and had no Shadow to contend with in those timelines (and no associated deterioration of Sakura's state of being).


She was in a far better position to retain control in Fate and UBW, but was pushed over the edge in HF.
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Old 2009-05-02, 11:07   Link #1274
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Where is it confirmed that Zouken dies in the other routes?
I can't exactly pin down the day, but there was a scene in the basement talking about 'rotting worms' and such. Pretty much suggesting the geezer bit the bullet. Zouken did say he was on his last legs in Heavens Feel.

Of course, there's also the fact that he never appeared, much less did anything, in any of the other routes. Even though this was the last chance for the Matou to do anything.

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And even if they weren't, they would still need to be removed, if she wants to have anything approaching a normal life.)
Considering she is very much suggested to lead a normal life -or at least not a worse life- in the other two endings despite Shinji being dead in one and a good brother in the other, I'd say that solved itself somehow.

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And quite frankly, I don't forgive Shinji so easily - years of abuse do not vanish overnight just because he'd now feel sorry about what he had done.
Nor should they. However I am a vocal supporter of atonement above death. He spend much of his life making Sakura's miserable, now he can spend the remainder of his life making up for it.

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But in the other routes, she did not have Zouken using her as the Shadow, targeting other Servants (and civilians) the way he did in HF, stacking her full of the sorcerous energy required to eventually let her summon the Grail, and the increased exposure to the burgeoning malevolence within the Grail System to match.

Rather than the chronic, yet relatively low-level, exposure that she suffered otherwise, Zouken had her 'activated' directly this time - and it took its toll.
This pretty much nullifies your earlier 'years of exposure' claim.

Which again brings us back to the knowledge that out of all characters exposed to the Grail's evil, Sakura was the only one to succumb to it. Every other character either resisted or canceled it's influence. Add to that that unlike those characters, Sakura had yet to be exposed to the full power of the grail, and it becomes obvious that it was not so much a matter of strength, but more a matter of choice.
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Old 2009-05-02, 11:19   Link #1275
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If this was aimed at me, you have probably mis-read my post. What I was saying that the way the story tells it, Sakura did not succumb to the corruptive powers of the grail because she was weak, she succumbed because she chose to.
This is relative. IMO, no-one goes crazy unwillingly. Circumstances can push you very far, but it's always you the one who choses to break.

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She was in a far better position to retain control in Fate and UBW, but was pushed over the edge in HF.
I'll add to this that the fact of being deprived of all hope once you finally manage to get some is a very hard blow. I suppose she had already lost all hope since she was a child, but gaining a new hope (as what happened in HF) after such a long time, and suddenly losing it is an excellent final blow planned by Zouken. In Fate and UBW there's nothing for her to lose, so it's hard for her over deteriorated mind to fall even more into the abyss.

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This pretty much nullifies your earlier 'years of exposure' claim.

Which again brings us back to the knowledge that out of all characters exposed to the Grail's evil, Sakura was the only one to succumb to it. Every other character either resisted or canceled it's influence. Add to that that unlike those characters, Sakura had yet to be exposed to the full power of the grail, and it becomes obvious that it was not so much a matter of strength, but more a matter of choice.
No, there must be something to corrupt in first place. That's easy to see if one compares the effect the shadow had on Saber, who was swallod almost inmediatly, but it had almost no effect in Archer and Assasin, who were already corrupted enough to resist the shadow (evil grail)
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Old 2009-05-02, 11:23   Link #1276
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This is relative. IMO, no-one goes crazy unwillingly. Circumstances can push you very far, but it's always you the one who choses to break.
But there is a difference between giving up and wanting it. The later is the choice I am referring to.

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I'll add to this that the fact of being deprived of all hope once you finally manage to get some is a very hard blow. I suppose she had already lost all hope since she was a child, but gaining a new hope (as what happened in HF) after such a long time, and suddenly losing it is an excellent final blow planned by Zouken. In Fate and UBW there's nothing for her to lose, so it's hard for her over deteriorated mind to fall even more into the abyss.
In both rounds her being with Shirou was also a dream of her, and she lost that.
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Old 2009-05-02, 11:41   Link #1277
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I can't exactly pin down the day, but there was a scene in the basement talking about 'rotting worms' and such. Pretty much suggesting the geezer bit the bullet. Zouken did say he was on his last legs in Heavens Feel.
Is that in only one route, or both - and even so, what of the worms already implanted within Sakura?

Quote:
Of course, there's also the fact that he never appeared, much less did anything, in any of the other routes. Even though this was the last chance for the Matou to do anything.

One of the aspects of both routes which is somewhat bothersome to not have resolved - which makes sense if the intent was to maximise the impact in HF, but is troubling when explaining the absence of such otherwise.

(Although, given that the 5th War was much earlier than expected, Zouken might have had some contingency planned to let him stick around until he had his next chance... unless he somehow knew it was going to happen five decades early?)



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Considering she is very much suggested to lead a normal life -or at least not a worse life- in the other two endings despite Shinji being dead in one and a good brother in the other, I'd say that solved itself somehow.
From the point of view of people who never found out what she had been going through, and didn't realise how much she was hiding from the outset.

Had they known she was worm-infested, and being abused by Shinji and Zouken, and then been able to say 'yeah, that's all taken care off, well done' then fair enough...

...but, sadly, it's likely that they seeing her as 'fine' just means that her mask had still not slipped.


(Look, I am the last person to want to see her have to wait for liberation post-Fate and -UBW, but I'm not convinced that this is truly the case.)

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Nor should they. However I am a vocal supporter of atonement above death. He spend much of his life making Sakura's miserable, now he can spend the remainder of his life making up for it.
Quite frankly, I wouldn't want him to have any further role in her life at all.



Quote:
This pretty much nullifies your earlier 'years of exposure' claim.
She did have years of exposure - but while that 'treatment' was horrific, it was at a level she was able to, somehow, learn to cope with, after a fashion.

Low, in this case, is not an absolute, but relative to the truly awful levels of exposure she underwent as the Shadow.

Quote:
Which again brings us back to the knowledge that out of all characters exposed to the Grail's evil, Sakura was the only one to succumb to it. Every other character either resisted or canceled it's influence. Add to that that unlike those characters, Sakura had yet to be exposed to the full power of the grail, and it becomes obvious that it was not so much a matter of strength, but more a matter of choice.
Leaving aside the part about the evil being enough to turn both Saber and Berserker, I will still say that the issue of choice is not as clear-cut as you make it out to be.


I suspect we may have to agree to disagree on this, however.
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Old 2009-05-02, 17:09   Link #1278
Kaisos Erranon
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Two things I'd like to mention, guys:

a) In UBW, I'm pretty sure that Shinji orders Gilgamesh to kill Zouken. Zouken is probably still alive in Fate, not that it exactly matters...

b) We only learn about Shinji's 'redemption' in the UBW end from Shirou's narration. There's no actual evidence Shinji has gotten better at all, especially since Shirou always tries to see the best in people, and is rather a naive idiot when it comes to these things anyway.
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Old 2009-05-02, 17:25   Link #1279
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I suspect we may have to agree to disagree on this, however.
Yeah, I think so too. I prefer to see this as Sakura's choice rather then say 'it's all the Grail's fault, Sakura is innocent' because I like evil Sakura. She made the final day worth the long drag the rest of the route was.

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b) We only learn about Shinji's 'redemption' in the UBW end from Shirou's narration. There's no actual evidence Shinji has gotten better at all, especially since Shirou always tries to see the best in people, and is rather a naive idiot when it comes to these things anyway.
And we have no actual evidence that he hasn't, so there is no reason to assume he didn't.

I never like this kind of theorycrafting, as it invalidates one of the major sources of information in stories. The characters. We have Shirou saying he did improve, while that evidence can be called subjective, it's more evidence than what points against him improving, which is nothing.
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Old 2009-05-02, 17:28   Link #1280
Kaisos Erranon
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And we have no actual evidence that he hasn't, so there is no reason to assume he didn't.
People don't change easily? And Shinji is pretty much rotten to the core?

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I never like this kind of theorycrafting, as it invalidates one of the major sources of information in stories. The characters. We have Shirou saying he did improve, while that evidence can be called subjective, it's more evidence than what points against him improving, which is nothing.
Shirou knows nothing about what Shinji ACTUALLY did to his sister in that route.

I understand what you mean, but characters, and narrators, can lie or be wrong.
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