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Old 2009-05-02, 22:22   Link #1281
Nerroth
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I kind of like the idea that even though he survived, that maybe (just maybe) Shinji is wasting away the way that Kiritsugu did after his exposure in the 4th War.

That way, even if he wanted to hurt Sakura again, he'd have the ability to actually do anything like that would be taken away...

(I know it's just my theory, but it's not entirely out of the realm of possibility. Besides, how would Shirou know?)

Oh, and for my part, I like the not-evil Sakura a hell of a lot better, personally.
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Old 2009-05-03, 01:59   Link #1282
Kaisos Erranon
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Nerroth View Post
(I know it's just my theory, but it's not entirely out of the realm of possibility. Besides, how would Shirou know?)
He wouldn't. He's in London.

Which means it is entirely possible that Shinji is just going to go back to raping Sakura. Again. More now that Shirou isn't around to punch his face in.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Nerroth View Post
Oh, and for my part, I like the not-evil Sakura a hell of a lot better, personally.
Eh. She's cute, but boring. I prefer Saber.
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Old 2009-05-03, 03:48   Link #1283
Keroko
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Kaisos Erranon View Post
People don't change easily? And Shinji is pretty much rotten to the core?
... do you really want me to break out the long list of 'antagonist turned good guys?'

If you want a reason, Shinji had a torturous near-death experience, being turned into a giant blob. That might have given him some incentive, kinda like 'is this what it's like to be a grail?'

Quote:
Originally Posted by Kaisos Erranon View Post
Shirou knows nothing about what Shinji ACTUALLY did to his sister in that route.

I understand what you mean, but characters, and narrators, can lie or be wrong.
So I can say "Sakura was lying, it wasn't the physical tampering that made her lust for sex, she's just a slut." or "Kotomine didn't stop Shirou just to see Avenger born, he wanted to destroy the world and take revenge on everything that lives!"

See where I'm going? Unless the words of a character are proven wrong, saying 'this isn't true' based on an opinion is as unbased as any other claim without evidence.

Bottomline: Yes, characters can lie and be wrong. But only when proven wrong.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Kaisos Erranon View Post
He wouldn't. He's in London.

Which means it is entirely possible that Shinji is just going to go back to raping Sakura. Again. More now that Shirou isn't around to punch his face in.
That, or that since he knows despite being in London, Sakura might have been the one who told him so. Sakura normally doesn't mention Shinji, if she did tell him this that would mean he did change.
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Old 2009-05-03, 04:11   Link #1284
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Keroko View Post
... do you really want me to break out the long list of 'antagonist turned good guys?'

If you want a reason, Shinji had a torturous near-death experience, being turned into a giant blob. That might have given him some incentive, kinda like 'is this what it's like to be a grail?'
Has nothing to do with how he might treat Sakura in the future.

See, Shinji isn't just an antagonist. He's a slimy, irredeemable git.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Keroko View Post
So I can say "Sakura was lying, it wasn't the physical tampering that made her lust for sex, she's just a slut." or "Kotomine didn't stop Shirou just to see Avenger born, he wanted to destroy the world and take revenge on everything that lives!"

See where I'm going? Unless the words of a character are proven wrong, saying 'this isn't true' based on an opinion is as unbased as any other claim without evidence.

Bottomline: Yes, characters can lie and be wrong. But only when proven wrong.
I always thought part of Kotomine's motivation WAS to destroy everything in order to take revenge on the universe for cursing him with sadism.

As as for Sakura's condition, well, we basically have objective proof of that...

There's absolutely nothing to stop Shinji from going back to raping Sakura once he gets out of the hospital. Shirou and Rin are in London, and Zoken is dead.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Keroko View Post
That, or that since he knows despite being in London, Sakura might have been the one who told him so. Sakura normally doesn't mention Shinji, if she did tell him this that would mean he did change.
Shirou says this in UBW's epilogue, which takes place before he leaves Fuyuki, if I recall correctly.
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Old 2009-05-03, 04:38   Link #1285
Keroko
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Kaisos Erranon View Post
There's absolutely nothing to stop Shinji from going back to raping Sakura once he gets out of the hospital. Shirou and Rin are in London, and Zoken is dead.
I'll ask again, what evidence do you have that Shinji didn't change? I have evidence, Shirou's words. While you may take them in question, that is evidence. On the other hand, there is zero evidence that proves Shinji did not change.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Kaisos Erranon View Post
Shirou says this in UBW's epilogue, which takes place before he leaves Fuyuki, if I recall correctly.
*checks* Yeah, it was. During the final day of school. To be exact, his words were:

"Shinji was saved thanks to Tohsaka, and he's currently in the hospital.
I guess the hospital is part of the magic association, and he's getting better.
Sakura is busy visiting him, so she's been showing up at my place only during the weekends.
I went to check up on them once, and they were getting along surprisingly well.
I don't know if that event took something out of him, or if he's just unenergetic from the wounds.
Either way, Shinji is ironic and honest, and he's acting a lot more like the Shinji I used to know."

Oh, and there's also a full year between the epilogue and going to London.

So we have several key things here:
  1. Despite this being the best chance she has, Sakura is not avoiding Shinji, and in fact goes to him even more often.
  2. Shirou recognizes and is even surprised by the difference in the interaction between them.
  3. Shinji was not always the prick he was in the game, and has returned to that state.
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Old 2009-05-03, 14:51   Link #1286
Nerroth
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Kaisos Erranon View Post
He wouldn't. He's in London.

Which means it is entirely possible that Shinji is just going to go back to raping Sakura. Again. More now that Shirou isn't around to punch his face in.
If what you say is true, it would be all the more reason to have him be wasting away - rather than leave it up to him to reform.


Quote:
Eh. She's cute, but boring. I prefer Saber.

...let's just say that while I agree that Saber is a fine character, I don't quite agree with your view regarding Sakura.



I wouldn't be so keen to write for her otherwise.
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Old 2009-05-03, 15:01   Link #1287
Keroko
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Nerroth View Post
...let's just say that while I agree that Saber is a fine character, I don't quite agree with your view regarding Sakura.
Hmm, I partially agree with Kaisos. I did think Sakura was a boring character myself, the done and done helpless damsel in distress that needs saving. You pity her, you take care of her, you fight for her. Boring, seen it a million times, not really my taste.

Then she went evil in the final day, and she was anything but a damsel. Throwing the entire damsel trope on its head, she decided she was done with being the victim and started being the victor. She scored major points there.

Which is also why I defend her choosing to be evil. If not, it's all the Grail's fault, and Sakura is still a boring helpless damsel.
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Old 2009-05-03, 15:23   Link #1288
Nerroth
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So, you think that had Rin been handed over instead of Sakura, that she wouldn't have cracked under the strain, and thus be required to be gotten the hell out of that place in the same way?

It's really unfair to dismiss Sakura like that, when the kind of life she should have been able to live had been taken away for such a long time.


I see Sakura as being a woman who has had so much in her young life taken from her - but at the same time, one who has a lot of potential once she is given the chance to live the kind of life she deserves... to blossom into the kind of person I believe she can be.


Indeed, in my own attempts to write for her, the last thing I would want her to be treated as is a person who would constantly need a crutch.

Rather, I would say that with the right help, the right advice, and the right chance for something more, she can step out of the shell that the past has conspired to put her in, and catch up with the kind of life experiences that are out there waiting for her... once she learns how to reach out and grasp it.


Quite frankly, I'd rather write about that - even if no-one other than myself would ever give a crap about it - than assume the only way she can escape her past is to turn into a supervillain.



And if saying all of this makes me into some kind of naive fanboy, well, so be it.
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Old 2009-05-03, 15:53   Link #1289
Keroko
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Perhaps Rin would have turned out like Sakura had she been handed over, perhaps not. Sakura's mocking in the Bad End where she tortured Rin sure seems to suggest that Rin would not have held out nearly as good as Sakura had anyway. I can assure you though, if Rin had been written to be the one handed over and would have cracked and turned into a helpless damsel, I would not nearly like her as much as I do now.

The 'why' doesn't really matter. What matters is that as we play the game, Sakura is a helpless little damsel in distress that needs to be protected. If you like that, fine. I didn't.

If Sakura had blossomed in the story as you describe she would, grow into a strong person who doesn't need a crutch and fought alongside Shirou against Zouken, then I would not have the opinion I do now. I would have loved her. However, she didn't. She did not blossom in the story after she was rescued, she remained a poor damsel that needed to be protected and saved.

I would have loved to see Sakura grow strong in the story. That never happened. So her choosing to be evil was the next best thing, as the only alternative is accepting her being a poor little damsel for the entire game.

I will much rather accept Sakura turning evil, at least that way I have something I like about her instead of nothing.
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Old 2009-05-03, 16:08   Link #1290
Nerroth
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I don't see the game as a self-contained tale, but rather a part of a wider tapestry that other Nasuverse tales, be they already published (like Fate/Zero) or which may, one day, be released in the future, are each glimpses, or segments, of.


I guess it's the 'world-builder' habit I have when reading stories in settings I find compelling - I can't help but place the stories we see in the context of a wider world, a wider range of characters and possibilities, that may not have played a role in this or that particular story, but who may still be out there in the wider setting...

...and who, one day, may be able to play a role in taking things in a new and unforeseen direction.


How many people did you know when you were 17 that you are still close to now, and how many have you met in the years (and places) since who have played the kind of role in your life that you couldn't have predicted back in the day?

That kind of change has most definitely been the case for myself.


(To give an example, one of my two longer fics is set 2-3 years after the Good ending of UBW, and includes an OC protagonist who was on the far side of the world in February 2004 - and at that time had no clue as to what his author would eventually have in store for him...)


The endings for each particular timeline might give a certain take, or snapshot, on how things may or may not go, and one could assume that's a sign of how things will be from then on...

...but life doesn't work that way.

At all.


And nor need fictional timelines, either.
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Old 2009-05-03, 17:03   Link #1291
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And yet, even if you do view Fate as something connected to a larger world, that does not change her character. As long as no official sources are released on it, her character remains as it was in Fate. I don't know how she is in Hollow Ataraxia, so maybe that game can change my views on Sakura, but without access to that, her character is as it is in Fate.

Sure, you could expand with fanfiction, but that would not be Sakura. Whatever you may write, that would be your Sakura.
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Old 2009-05-03, 17:09   Link #1292
Nerroth
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It's a wide multiverse - one in which no character need develop the same way in every alternate reality.


Even if a Sakura askin to the one I try to write is canonised one day, it would still be valid in only some, and by no means all, possible Nasuverse timelines.


But if there's even one out of millions of timelines where she can be so, that would be enough for me.
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Old 2009-05-04, 18:20   Link #1293
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Wow, I finally finished the ubw route, and it really was a great story with quite a few moving scenes. Poor Ilya...
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Old 2009-05-04, 20:04   Link #1294
Seitsuki
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ya iriya isn't treated well in any scenario ;_;
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Old 2009-05-05, 00:12   Link #1295
ShinMasaki
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It's been a while since I visited these boards. Allow me to comment and reply to a few points that were brought up that I would like to contribute to.


Quote:
Originally Posted by Kaisos Erranon View Post
a) In UBW, I'm pretty sure that Shinji orders Gilgamesh to kill Zouken. Zouken is probably still alive in Fate, not that it exactly matters...
Yeah, in UBW Shinji does order Gilgamesh to kill Zouken. There is a high chance that Zouken is still alive from this, however consider the state of his being by this point in time. Even when he 'acquires' a new body, a short time later, the body needs to be replaced. Even if he were still alive, he is nearing the 'expiration date' of his soul, so it doesn't matter much.

Same goes for the Fate route. There is no source of info relating anything about Zouken during or after the Fate route, so we can assume he just fades away into nothingness, if he hadn't already (consider the 'rotten worms in the basement'). By this point, he may have lost his ability to maintain his body and is in his last stretch of existence if he hasn't hit it already.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Kaisos Erranon View Post
From what I remember reading about F/HA, Avenger really isn't all that bad of a person.
Avenger is actually a rather friendly person. As the weakest servant (since he's nobody special except the villager who drew the shortest straw) he does nothing in combat except get beat on and die...a lot. Sucks to be him, but for the most part, I wouldn't consider him bad in the least. Read some of the F/HA doujins featuring Avenger, everyone else considers him a fun, if not comical at times, character who the rest of the cast gets along with rather well, even if he is the source of all evil in existence.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Nerroth View Post
Oh, and I might also add that I don't believe that Shirou is the only man on Earth with whom a free Sakura could find happiness. He may have been an important aspect of her life at a critical time, but even if he does end up with Rin, or pine over Saber, Sakura need not be left to live out her days alone.
I think, in the Fate and UBW routes, Sakura actually would be able to get over losing Shirou quite normally. She is, for the most part, a normal girl. If you remember back to description of the worms inside her during the HF route, the worms cause an increase in sexual desire and such. Sakura always liked Shirou the most but even in the Fate/UBW routes, she doesn't do anything drastic. If you accept that with the eventual death of Zouken, the worms will die as well. If Sakura wasn't obsessive about Shirou before WITH the worms, she should be perfectly fine getting over him without the worms anymore.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Deadwings View Post
No, there must be something to corrupt in first place. That's easy to see if one compares the effect the shadow had on Saber, who was swallod almost inmediatly, but it had almost no effect in Archer and Assasin, who were already corrupted enough to resist the shadow (evil grail)
Agreed. Archer and Assassin are both servants long since corrupted by various things/deeds. Archer corrupted by his own ideals betraying him, his source of existence essentially and Assassin who, well is Assassin. Having already been corrupted somewhat, they are more resistant to the effects of the Grail content than one who is as pure as Saber or Berserker.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Nerroth View Post
Although, given that the 5th War was much earlier than expected, Zouken might have had some contingency planned to let him stick around until he had his next chance
I'm thinking that he didn't want to waste what little mana he had left and left his expectations on Shinji, who failed miserably. In HF, he maybe could have foreseen or expected Shinji to fail and entered the war himself by summoning True Assassin and sacrificing some of his remaining mana to the servant. I mean, his bodies die rather quickly so he ended up having to use his mana supply consistently for maintaining them and the worms.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Nerroth View Post
She did have years of exposure - but while that 'treatment' was horrific, it was at a level she was able to, somehow, learn to cope with, after a fashion.
Zouken only considered her a tool, using her to summon a servant. Nobody really cared about Sakura except Kariya, her adoptive uncle. Over the years, I expect her to have gotten used to the torture/treatment that she was forced to endure as a daily thing, just as Shirou had gotten used to stepping up to Death's doorstep every night as he practiced his magic.

It's like going through the horrific exposure of going to work everyday, eventually you get used to it. Having something big and unexpected at that point wouldn't be that big a deal as if it happened before you got used to everything else.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Keroko View Post
And we have no actual evidence that he hasn't, so there is no reason to assume he didn't.

I never like this kind of theorycrafting, as it invalidates one of the major sources of information in stories. The characters. We have Shirou saying he did improve, while that evidence can be called subjective, it's more evidence than what points against him improving, which is nothing.
Quote:
Originally Posted by Kaisos Erranon View Post
Which means it is entirely possible that Shinji is just going to go back to raping Sakura. Again. More now that Shirou isn't around to punch his face in.
Well, for this, Shirou does try to make everyone out to be a saint. He always considers the best before even attempting to look at the worst. Shinji is in a hospital, he is, at this point, in no condition to be raping Sakura. Besides, by this point, Sakura no longer has Zouken's treatment of her to worry about (not that I think she worried about it anymore) and probably not even the worms to worry about either. She is, at this point, significantly stronger than Shinji given that she is a full mage while Shinji is just Shinji.

While I believe her personality after this would make a change for the better and that Shinji would have a much harder time trying to force Sakura down anymore, I don't believe that Shinji has had much of a change. It's like the point I was arguing before about Shirou from the other routes compared to HF, you can't simply 180 degree your personality in an instant, it's something that requires a gradual change as you break from your 'norm' and change that to something else.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Keroko View Post
And yet, even if you do view Fate as something connected to a larger world, that does not change her character. As long as no official sources are released on it, her character remains as it was in Fate. I don't know how she is in Hollow Ataraxia, so maybe that game can change my views on Sakura, but without access to that, her character is as it is in Fate.

Sure, you could expand with fanfiction, but that would not be Sakura. Whatever you may write, that would be your Sakura.
Eh, don't consider what happens in F/HA as being canon at all with what happens in F/SN. There are so many inconsistencies with the canon timeline to ANY of the routes in F/SN that you can't look at it as being of the same universe. Maybe one of the alternate timelines capable by the 3rd Magic? Anyway, for the most part, when I went through F/HA, Sakura (and Saber for that matter) were more lol characters than serious additions. There were far too many lol moments featuring these two, especially Saber, to look at them the same way.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Nerroth View Post
So, you think that had Rin been handed over instead of Sakura, that she wouldn't have cracked under the strain, and thus be required to be gotten the hell out of that place in the same way?
I wonder what would have happened should Rin have been the one handed over. Given that of all the Masters in the 5th war, Rin is said to be the strongest Master (besides Caster), if she snapped due to the effects of Angra Mainyu + daily life at the Matou household, I'm sure things would have ended much differently. I doubt that Sakura could have pulled off gem sword Zelretch or anything of near enough power to stop Rin.

However, would Rin have snapped? If you go through Fate/Zero and read the little bit about Rin, she was a hell of a lot tougher than Sakura. She would have kept Shinji in his place for the most part, or at the least, been the one wearing the pants of the two.

************************

Okay, I think puts me up to speed with everything.
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Old 2009-05-05, 01:26   Link #1296
Kaisos Erranon
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Quote:
Originally Posted by ShinMasaki View Post
Eh, don't consider what happens in F/HA as being canon at all with what happens in F/SN. There are so many inconsistencies with the canon timeline to ANY of the routes in F/SN that you can't look at it as being of the same universe. Maybe one of the alternate timelines capable by the 3rd Magic? Anyway, for the most part, when I went through F/HA, Sakura (and Saber for that matter) were more lol characters than serious additions. There were far too many lol moments featuring these two, especially Saber, to look at them the same way.
Isn't Nasuverse canon pretty much "whatever Nasu says is canon"?

F/HA obviously takes place after some alternate ending where Shirou uses the grail to materialize the souls of all the servants. Or something.

Kotomine was still a villain though, clearly, as he's still dead. Bawwww
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Old 2009-05-05, 01:38   Link #1297
Seitsuki
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Kaisos Erranon View Post
Isn't Nasuverse canon pretty much "whatever Nasu says is canon"?

F/HA obviously takes place after some alternate ending where Shirou uses the grail to materialize the souls of all the servants. Or something.

Kotomine was still a villain though, clearly, as he's still dead. Bawwww
that *would* be the case if it wasn't so inconsistent. *manages not to refer to tvtropes*

in this case however HF was clearly the canon route.
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Old 2009-05-05, 01:45   Link #1298
Kaisos Erranon
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Quote:
Originally Posted by mikita View Post
in this case however HF was clearly the canon route.
...Oh boy. You did NOT just say that.
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Old 2009-05-05, 11:51   Link #1299
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Oh yes he did. Watch as I quote him again.

Quote:
in this case however HF was clearly the canon route.
Iie, there is no such thing as cannon route due to the existence of Second Magic.
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Old 2009-05-05, 12:46   Link #1300
Keroko
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Quote:
Originally Posted by ShinMasaki View Post
While I believe her personality after this would make a change for the better and that Shinji would have a much harder time trying to force Sakura down anymore, I don't believe that Shinji has had much of a change. It's like the point I was arguing before about Shirou from the other routes compared to HF, you can't simply 180 degree your personality in an instant, it's something that requires a gradual change as you break from your 'norm' and change that to something else.
... You really want me to pull out the long list of characters that do instant 180 degrees, do you?

And if you want reasons:
  • Shinji just went through a near-death experience. That tends to leave an impact.
  • He was exposed to all the evils in the world, an evil bastard being exposed to real evil, especially when it's a cowardly bastard, can be enlightening.
  • He has lost his reason to be angry towards Sakura. Status no longer matters with the war over and his grandfather dead.
  • As you said, he no longer has any power over Sakura.
  • He has lost everything, and Sakura gives him the chance to keep at least something.
Also... Oh hey, Ilya. No, we weren't talking about you. We were talking about Shinji. Yes, yes, I know your 180 degree was even more spectacular. Makes you wonder how spectacular it would have been in your own route, huh?

Quote:
Originally Posted by mikita View Post
in this case however HF was clearly the canon route.
Do tell, why?
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