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Old 2009-05-05, 17:51   Link #41
morbosfist
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Originally Posted by Airi View Post
Shirley's death was pretty sad and I didn't want her to die. Please, don't kill me for saying that but....I think she was the only one who loved Lelouch in a pure and simple way and not because she expected something from him, like Kallen or C.C.
Dem's fightin' words. She expected him to love her back, so to say she expected nothing is wrong. Everyone expects something.
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Old 2009-05-05, 18:42   Link #42
ginran
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I'm so happy you got this made! I asked in the thread request thread a while ago...but, it didnt accomplish anything....XD Thanks so much Nobodyman!
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Old 2009-05-05, 19:33   Link #43
Xander
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I liked Shirley, she was both cheerful and someone who genuinely loved Lelouch, coming to understand him in her next-to-final moments...all of which made her death especially sad, but her story always had a high probability of ending in tragedy once the Mao arc had set things in motion so I expected her fate to be bittersweet at best.

If the subplot introduced near the end of the first season had continued and she had confronted Lelouch about the letter, I expected the eventual results to be painful for both of them considering where his own path was eventually going to take him (and where it indeed did).

What could have made a difference are the circumstances under which such a meeting finally happened and in that respect I imagine that there were endless possibilities. Would she understand his goals, join him and try to help out somehow? That would have been very interesting to see. At the same time, she could also have chosen to reject his methods and stay at the school, or Lelouch would have to cut himself off from that world, willingly or otherwise, leaving Shirley as someone who would wait for him without being directly involved in the grand scheme of things.

It's hard to say what would happen in terms of specific events.
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Old 2009-05-05, 19:54   Link #44
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Well, at least i can safely imagine that if Lelouch never did found C.C in the first place, Shirley would end with him. Not for long, since Charles was trying to make the instrumentaly project, but they surely would get together someday.

It's hard to say what was going to happen if she survived, cause everything would be different. If she survives, Lelouch probably will not attack the geass cult yet, so, Tohdou will never get the confession and betray Zero, so Schneizel won't get what he wants and who knows what he would do next... Shirley's death was the catalyst for everything that happened after that.

So, my guess is that he probably would give her a job like the one C.C got. Don't do nothing, but pretend you're doing something. And there would be a lot of catfights with Kallen.
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Old 2009-05-05, 20:19   Link #45
morbosfist
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Well, at least i can safely imagine that if Lelouch never did found C.C in the first place, Shirley would end with him. Not for long, since Charles was trying to make the instrumentaly project, but they surely would get together someday.
yes, in a normal world Shirley had the advantage. In crazy magic rebellion world, however...

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It's hard to say what was going to happen if she survived, cause everything would be different. If she survives, Lelouch probably will not attack the geass cult yet, so, Tohdou will never get the confession and betray Zero, so Schneizel won't get what he wants and who knows what he would do next... Shirley's death was the catalyst for everything that happened after that.
The Geass Cult massacre, at best, was the icing on the cake. Ohgi had them won over merely by nodding his head to everything Schenizel said. That part would go down the same either way. Maybe Tohdoh would be a little more reluctant, but it would have passed. Shirley's death wasn't that important.

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So, my guess is that he probably would give her a job like the one C.C got. Don't do nothing, but pretend you're doing something. And there would be a lot of catfights with Kallen.
Including her at all would be a serious error in judgment for Lelouch. People are going to ask questions when Shirley up and vanishes from Ashford. She'd be safer guarding his identity at the school.
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Old 2009-05-05, 20:25   Link #46
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I don't know if everything would happen the same way. If Tohdou has absolute trust in Zero(which at the moment, even without the confession was not likely, since Lelouch was crazy for Nunnally loss), he would probably disagree with Schneizel and with Ohgi, because he's listening to a brittanian woman. Since Tohdou is one of the pillars of the BK, i think his opinion got the same weight as Ohgi's opinion. And he got Tamaki to support him.
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Old 2009-05-05, 20:29   Link #47
morbosfist
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I don't know if everything would happen the same way. If Tohdou has absolute trust in Zero(which at the moment, even without the confession was not likely, since Lelouch was crazy for Nunnally loss), he would probably disagree with Schneizel and with Ohgi, because he's listening to a brittanian woman. Since Tohdou is one of the pillars of the BK, i think his opinion got the same weight as Ohgi's opinion. And he got Tamaki to support him.
Oh how I wish that were the case. Moreover, I wish someone had actually pointed out what you mention. Ohgi walks in with a Britannian woman and no one even thinks to mention it. Madness, I say.

Shirley indirectly helped to shake his faith through that massacre in her name, but given his reaction to the evidence I don't think it would have made a difference if it had never happened.
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Old 2009-05-05, 22:44   Link #48
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Originally Posted by morbosfist View Post
Dem's fightin' words. She expected him to love her back, so to say she expected nothing is wrong. Everyone expects something.
Well yeah, I'm sure pretty much everyone who loves someone would hope they would love him/her back Still, Shirley seemed more or less okay with the situation in Turn 12 saying "It's okay. I'll make you fall in love with me"

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Wow, one day and there's already 3 pages! its nice to see, and I'm so happy you got this made! I asked in the thread request thread a while ago...but, it didnt accomplish anything....XD Thanks so much Nobodyman!
Huh, that's weird. I don't why they wouldn't do it before. Maybe things are getting really slow here. Or maybe the mods are getting tired of the Kalulu hype

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Originally Posted by morbosfist View Post
yes, in a normal world Shirley had the advantage. In crazy magic rebellion world, however...
In a crazy magic rebellion world Lelouch gets caught up in revolutionizing the world and dies at a young age, so...
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Old 2009-05-06, 00:26   Link #49
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Well yeah, I'm sure pretty much everyone who loves someone would hope they would love him/her back Still, Shirley seemed more or less okay with the situation in Turn 12 saying "It's okay. I'll make you fall in love with me."
As your quote points out, it's much more than hope. In essence, she's got a "you're my man" mentality, though a harmless one of course. That's her expectation, that he "will" love her.

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In a crazy magic rebellion world Lelouch gets caught up in revolutionizing the world and dies at a young age, so...
During which time he interacts with several other women, so Shirley's chances dwindle somewhat.
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Old 2009-05-06, 00:44   Link #50
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Originally Posted by morbosfist View Post
As your quote points out, it's much more than hope. In essence, she's got a "you're my man" mentality, though a harmless one of course. That's her expectation, that he "will" love her.
Well, as I said before, I think pretty much everyone holds out the hope and desire that the one they love will reciprocate their feelings. It's only naturally, can't blame Shirley, Kallen or anyone for that. Now if you love someone but then expect them to change to suit your needs and/or wants, that's a different story.

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During which time he interacts with several other women, so Shirley's chances dwindle somewhat.
And in the end he ends up with no one. Well, Shirley had a damn good chance anyway.
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Old 2009-05-06, 00:53   Link #51
morbosfist
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Well, as I said before, I think pretty much everyone holds out the hope and desire that the one they love will reciprocate their feelings. It's only naturally, can't blame Shirley, Kallen or anyone for that. Now if you love someone but then expect them to change to suit your needs and/or wants, that's a different story.
Not blaming her for it, just saying that it's quite the contrast from Kallen, who wanted to know what he felt, and C.C., who was his equal. Also, you could technically say Shirley expected him to change (and planned to change him when Sayoko made him into a playboy ) by expecting him to come around and love her.

I guess the original point that I'm aiming at is that Shirley's love is not "pure and simple", any more so than Kallen's or C.C.'s.
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Old 2009-05-06, 01:24   Link #52
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Not blaming her for it, just saying that it's quite the contrast from Kallen, who wanted to know what he felt, and C.C., who was his equal. Also, you could technically say Shirley expected him to change (and planned to change him when Sayoko made him into a playboy ) by expecting him to come around and love her.

I guess the original point that I'm aiming at is that Shirley's love is not "pure and simple", any more so than Kallen's or C.C.'s.
Well that's just it, I think Shirley already knew how Lelouch felt. She called him out as a liar when he said he loved her. She knew how she felt by then, so she just figure she'd work on it from her. But things got a little muddled along the way.

And as far as trying to change his "playboy" nature. I like to think of it as "concern for the one you love" But yeah, I can definitely understand your point of view.
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Old 2009-05-06, 05:23   Link #53
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Quote:
Originally Posted by morbosfist View Post
Dem's fightin' words. She expected him to love her back, so to say she expected nothing is wrong. Everyone expects something.
Lol, that's obvious! When you love someone you want to be loved back.
But I wasn't talking about love: Kallen expected Zero to free Japan from Britannia and CC expected him to kill her. That's what I meant. (Of course, I know they loved him too)
Shirley loved him and she wanted to be loved back and nothing else. That's why I said "pure and simple way"
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Old 2009-05-06, 14:03   Link #54
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Lol, that's obvious! When you love someone you want to be loved back.
But I wasn't talking about love: Kallen expected Zero to free Japan from Britannia and CC expected him to kill her. That's what I meant. (Of course, I know they loved him too)
Shirley loved him and she wanted to be loved back and nothing else. That's why I said "pure and simple way"
Hmm, well I don't think that's entirely true about Kallen (it is pretty much true about C.C. though) At first Kallen wanted Lelouch/Zero to free Japan, and only naturally so since he was her leader and messiah who promised to liberate her country. However, she later learned to love him and at Turn 19 she was willing to die with him, regardless of him freeing Japan and fulfilling her desires. She only wanted to know if she was important.

And to that extent, I'd say Shirley and Kallen were more or less in the same position. They both loved him and very much wanted him to love them back, but they accepted him for who he was and didn't force him to change (...well, maybe they influenced him a little).
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Old 2009-05-07, 04:26   Link #55
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mh, I think I can see your point, Airi.

the relationship between Shirley and Lelouch is built uniquely over her feelings for him and how they influenced their interaction, while with Kallen and CC there were a lot of other things on the table that came in the way of feelings, even though, at least in Kallen's case, those feelings pretty much grow to te point of pushing everything else on the edge of the table, nearly pushing it down in the end.

So yeah, she's the girl that got the most 'simple' relationship with him.
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Old 2009-05-07, 08:43   Link #56
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Originally Posted by Xander View Post
I liked Shirley, she was both cheerful and someone who genuinely loved Lelouch, coming to understand him in her next-to-final moments...all of which made her death especially sad, but her story always had a high probability of ending in tragedy once the Mao arc had set things in motion so I expected her fate to be bittersweet at best.

If the subplot introduced near the end of the first season had continued and she had confronted Lelouch about the letter, I expected the eventual results to be painful for both of them considering where his own path was eventually going to take him (and where it indeed did).

What could have made a difference are the circumstances under which such a meeting finally happened and in that respect I imagine that there were endless possibilities. Would she understand his goals, join him and try to help out somehow? That would have been very interesting to see. At the same time, she could also have chosen to reject his methods and stay at the school, or Lelouch would have to cut himself off from that world, willingly or otherwise, leaving Shirley as someone who would wait for him without being directly involved in the grand scheme of things.

It's hard to say what would happen in terms of specific events.
I had the same feeling that if things had continued where Stage 25 had left off, we might have seen a very different outcome between Shirley x Lelouch. The geass that he had placed on her would have come into question as well. It becomes very tough for a girl to have a relationship with a guy who was indirectly responsible for killing her father. Something tells me that Shirley was destined to be a tragic character in the same fashion as Euphemia. Although not as a massacre princess.
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Old 2009-05-07, 11:25   Link #57
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Wow.....never thought I'd actually see a Shirley thread....well done.

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Heh... can't believe I'm touching the CG subforum again. But yes, I'm interested in this doujinshi too

You know, I think in the end Shirley's death was created as a plot device for Lelouch to fully go down the "demon" route, something he pretty much needed to do in order to accomplish his final goals... shame it had to be shirley, though (I would've much preferred Nunnally, if anyone )
I would say that Euphy's death did that quite well.
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Old 2009-05-07, 13:12   Link #58
Nobodyman9
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mh, I think I can see your point, Airi.

the relationship between Shirley and Lelouch is built uniquely over her feelings for him and how they influenced their interaction, while with Kallen and CC there were a lot of other things on the table that came in the way of feelings, even though, at least in Kallen's case, those feelings pretty much grow to te point of pushing everything else on the edge of the table, nearly pushing it down in the end.

So yeah, she's the girl that got the most 'simple' relationship with him.
Well, when you put it that way, yes. I do agree that Shirley and Lelouch's was pretty much strictly romantic (at least from her end) and there weren't these other circumstances or expectations from her surrounding Lelouch, as there were with Kallen and C.C. There was the fiasco with her father, but that's different.

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Originally Posted by darthfury78 View Post
I had the same feeling that if things had continued where Stage 25 had left off, we might have seen a very different outcome between Shirley x Lelouch. The geass that he had placed on her would have come into question as well. It becomes very tough for a girl to have a relationship with a guy who was indirectly responsible for killing her father. Something tells me that Shirley was destined to be a tragic character in the same fashion as Euphemia. Although not as a massacre princess.
I, and everyone else, can only imagine what would've happened if that stupid time slot change hadn't occurred. Well, for one thing, it could very well be possible that Charles wouldn't have altered the SC's memories and therefore Shirley would be more inclined to confront Lelouch about his identity sooner. Who knows what would've happened from there.

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Originally Posted by Cosmic Eagle View Post
Wow.....never thought I'd actually see a Shirley thread....well done.
Thanks. This is a good week for Shirley fans

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I would say that Euphy's death did that quite well.
Well, Lelouch has more or less been on the "demon path" since he started this whole escapade. He did sort drift in out of the extremeties to how "demonic" he was, but I think he's always been committed to the idea that he must become evil to defeat the greater evil.
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Old 2009-05-07, 18:33   Link #59
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Ah, yeah, i remember now that there's a plot on season 1, when Shirley found the letter she wrote to Lelouch when she discovered that he's Zero. What happened to this one? It turned into dust in the timeskip?

And i think the timeskip was great for Shirley, sort of. Thanks to it, now we knows that even after a geass, she still would love Lelouch, i think that's quite something. But it's awful for Shirlulu, he spend a year with the girl and never did anything? C'MON.
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Old 2009-05-07, 18:39   Link #60
morbosfist
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Ah, yeah, i remember now that there's a plot on season 1, when Shirley found the letter she wrote to Lelouch when she discovered that he's Zero. What happened to this one? It turned into dust in the timeskip?

And i think the timeskip was great for Shirley, sort of. Thanks to it, now we knows that even after a geass, she still would love Lelouch, i think that's quite something. But it's awful for Shirlulu, he spend a year with the girl and never did anything? C'MON.
They probably disposed of it while checking for evidence of Nunnally.
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