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Old 2009-05-07, 23:08   Link #1
Orga777
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Schneizel el Britannia was the final threat to Lelouch's plans, has a mysterious background, revolved around the plot significantly, and was actually one of the three real players (along with Charles and Lelouch... and the only one without a Geass to boot!) in the series. His actions through the series are rather interesting from his viewpoints on War, how to obtain peace, etc. Heck it could also be used to discuss his startegic brilliance and overall importance to the plot and Lelouch more specifically.


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Enjoy the discussion.
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Old 2009-05-07, 23:15   Link #2
demon_god04
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Honestly, I am not too sure about his whole importance. Schneizel really only ended up as a speed bump at the end for Lelouch to look even cooler. But I felt that his answer to how the world can have peace is similar to what Lelouch told C.C in season one, how the chain of war and hatred and all that can end if someone wins.
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Old 2009-05-07, 23:25   Link #3
Orga777
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Awesome! I got my topic. XD And I knew you would say something like that demon_god... XD

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Originally Posted by demon_god04 View Post
Honestly, I am not too sure about his whole importance. Schneizel really only ended up as a speed bump at the end for Lelouch to look even cooler.
Oh come now. A speed bump? He ended up being harder for Lelouch to get through than his father. Schneizel was the one that brought everyone together to face Lelouch. Heck, he was the one that turned them AGAINST Lelouch. XD And he did it all without Geass. He was more than a mere speed bump.

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But I felt that his answer to how the world can have peace is similar to what Lelouch told C.C in season one, how the chain of war and hatred and all that can end if someone wins.
And I agree here on that, but of course, how he got to that conclusion is what is more interesting because it is unknown. (And you know I have my own speculations on that... I may expand on that later of course.) He was pretty much the same as early Lelouch in that reguard, the only difference I see is that Schneizel had no real hope for the future and gave up on people in general while Lelouch had more faith.
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Old 2009-05-07, 23:32   Link #4
morbosfist
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Oh come now. A speed bump? He ended up being harder for Lelouch to get through than his father. Schneizel was the one that brought everyone together to face Lelouch. Heck, he was the one that turned them AGAINST Lelouch. XD And he did it all without Geass. He was more than a mere speed bump.
Lelouch did half the work there. He left them with no one else to turn to and Schneizel took advantage of that. Schneizel does get some credit for turning the Black Knights on him, but that is just as much Ohgi's fault for being a love-struck moron.

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He was pretty much the same as early Lelouch in that reguard, the only difference I see is that Schneizel had no real hope for the future and gave up on people in general while Lelouch had more faith.
That sounds about right, but when you give a man like him a weapon with such destructive potential then the result tends to be obvious.
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Old 2009-05-08, 00:00   Link #5
Orga777
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Lelouch did half the work there. He left them with no one else to turn to and Schneizel took advantage of that. Schneizel does get some credit for turning the Black Knights on him, but that is just as much Ohgi's fault for being a love-struck moron.
Eh? It is true that Lelouch left the BK's (and the UFN) with no one else to turn to, but Schneizel still effectively had control over their forces, and even if it was just mutual gain, it was still effective on his part and he implimented his pieces well.

As for that hub-bub with Ougi, it was A LOT more than that. Schneizel was starting to turn them well before Ougi barged into the meeting. He had a swamp load of stuff to use against Lelouch there, and Lelouch didn't see it coming at all... XD

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That sounds about right, but when you give a man like him a weapon with such destructive potential then the result tends to be obvious.
Well, that was mostly because he felt that this was the only way to do it though. He wasn't aiming to be some type of living god (he even said so himself.) And there is also a great deal of evidence of him being against uneeded slaughter (like his whole deal with the CF before Lelouch crashed it.) He kinda caught the Ozymandias case of dealing with war and mass destruction. He obviously felt that the only way to prevent more uneeded deaths was to sacrifice lives to do so. I have a feeling it isn't exactly something he WANTED to do, but something, as a man of power (and action) something he felt he had to do. Heck, he hated his father for never using his power to stop anything and detested how Charles was too busy looking back and ignoring the strife that is going on in the here and now (of course Schneizel in turn failed to look for a future while he was too busy living in the here and now.) Actually, in that one Audio Drama (0.884) he tells Clovis that a leader must sometimes be bad and that kindness is not a virtue.
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Old 2009-05-08, 00:26   Link #6
morbosfist
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Eh? It is true that Lelouch left the BK's (and the UFN) with no one else to turn to, but Schneizel still effectively had control over their forces, and even if it was just mutual gain, it was still effective on his part and he implimented his pieces well.
Through clever manipulation, yeah, but again Lelouch maneuvered them into that by putting the hostages on the front line. Lelouch did it on purpose, too, so he must have known that Schneizel would insist upon taking command.

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As for that hub-bub with Ougi, it was A LOT more than that. Schneizel was starting to turn them well before Ougi barged into the meeting. He had a swamp load of stuff to use against Lelouch there, and Lelouch didn't see it coming at all... XD
He didn't have a hold on them until Ohgi walked in, and Ohgi walked in before Schneizel had even really started (just identity and Geass). Had Ohgi not been mindlessly backing his every word, they would not have so easily bought that load. As Diethard said, Ohgi's the kind of normal guy that keeps people together, but it also makes him the guy they listen to, even if he's inept.

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Well, that was mostly because he felt that this was the only way to do it though. He wasn't aiming to be some type of living god (he even said so himself.) And there is also a great deal of evidence of him being against uneeded slaughter (like his whole deal with the CF before Lelouch crashed it.)
That's violence on a similar scale, though, so it was useless. Violence that they could not possibly retaliate against, like nukes, work. Schneizel may be against some violence, but he's also very callous with human life.

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He kinda caught the Ozymandias case of dealing with war and mass destruction. He obviously felt that the only way to prevent more uneeded deaths was to sacrifice lives to do so.
Ozymandias is closer to Lelouch, not Schneizel. Schneizel aimed to stop war through perpetual fear of himself and his nukes. Lelouch and Ozymandias engineered a threat humanity would band against, making peace by making a larger target to hate than each other. One is peace through fear, the other is created through cooperation.

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I have a feeling it isn't exactly something he WANTED to do, but something, as a man of power (and action) something he felt he had to do. Heck, he hated his father for never using his power to stop anything and detested how Charles was too busy looking back and ignoring the strife that is going on in the here and now (of course Schneizel in turn failed to look for a future while he was too busy living in the here and now.) Actually, in that one Audio Drama (0.884) he tells Clovis that a leader must sometimes be bad and that kindness is not a virtue.
It is something he wanted to do. The desire has to be there. How he goes about it is the "necessity" part. That's part of the oddity I find in descriptions of him: always "no desire", but the man is obviously motivated enough to jump on Nina's bomb research for his own purposes. Seems to me he was always searching for an endgame, and in Nina he found it. Just poor luck he found the most destructive version.
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Old 2009-05-08, 00:42   Link #7
Orga777
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Through clever manipulation, yeah, but again Lelouch maneuvered them into that by putting the hostages on the front line. Lelouch did it on purpose, too, so he must have known that Schneizel would insist upon taking command.
That may be true, but Schneizel still made Lelouch get the "OMFG! WTF?!" Face twice (in the same episode too.) By moving faster than he thought he would, and then by actually having Nunnally alive and well. He totally played Lelouch there.

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He didn't have a hold on them until Ohgi walked in, and Ohgi walked in before Schneizel had even started. Had Ohgi not been mindlessly backing his every word, they would not have so easily bought that load. As Diethard said, Ohgi's the kind of normal guy that keeps people together, but it also makes him the guy they listen to, even if he's inept.
Ougi was just the final straw on the matter. Schneizel would have won them over eventually even without the added help, I have no doubt about that. And the load? Pfft. Schneizel was very convincing. Especially when he got out the whole what I like to call the "Geass Papers" on all the possible people he Geassed. And it all made sense when they started to put two and two together. Even Toudou was getting shaken and Cornelia made them all doubt Deithard there by throwing out that Deithard already knew about a bunch of information that he got from Villetta and Jeremiah on the matter in S1. Schneizel had them there. It was all him, even Lelouch knew it was well played.

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That's violence on a similar scale, though, so it was useless. Violence that they could not possibly retaliate against, like nukes, work. Schneizel may be against some violence, but he's also very callous with human life.
Oh, I agree there. Schneizel wouldn't think twice about tossing away lives (even his own) if it will save a larger scale of them. Heck, when he knew Lelouch won he was ready to die, take Lelouch with him, and end everything once and for all and peace could really reign. (Till Lelouch Geassed him of course.)

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Ozymandias is closer to Lelouch, not Schneizel. Schneizel aimed to stop war through perpetual fear of himself and his nukes. Lelouch and Ozymandias engineered a threat humanity would band against, making peace by making a larger target to hate than each other. One is peace through fear, the other is created through cooperation.
Ahh, I kinda agree and disagree. Ozymandias didn't make the world hate himself, and he didn't get any punishment for what he did (Lelouch on the other hand did.) Schneizel is just as callous as Ozy and just as detactched when it comes to human lives. They both see them as needed sacrifices and nothing more. Lelouch sees those sacrifices as something more than what they do. Though Lelouch is also like Ozy as well.

Although Schneizel isn't completely callous. He could have easily of killed off Cornelia, but he didn't. He also didn't want to be greedy and wipe out the BK's with a FLEIA warhead when he very well could have.

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It is something he wanted to do. The desire has to be there. How he goes about it is the "necessity" part. That's part of the oddity I find in descriptions of him: always "no desire", but the man is obviously motivated enough to jump on Nina's bomb research for his own purposes. Seems to me he was always searching for an endgame, and in Nina he found it. Just poor luck he found the most destructive version.
Now you see, here I disagree. I see Schneizel as doing it because he feels that it HAS to be done and that he, being a man of power, has to do it even if he doesn't want too. He watched his father ignore current affairs and delve into the Occult while Schneizel had to watch and fight wars and run a superpower for his father who never took responsibility with his power. He had no desire to run the world (and Lelouch obviously knew that too since he knew what his brother was going to say when he made that recording.)
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Old 2009-05-08, 01:10   Link #8
morbosfist
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That may be true, but Schneizel still made Lelouch get the "OMFG! WTF?!" Face twice (in the same episode too.) By moving faster than he thought he would, and then by actually having Nunnally alive and well. He totally played Lelouch there.
The first was not so "OMG, WTF" as it was "damn, too slow." The second, I'll give you.

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Ougi was just the final straw on the matter. Schneizel would have won them over eventually even without the added help, I have no doubt about that. And the load? Pfft. Schneizel was very convincing. Especially when he got out the whole what I like to call the "Geass Papers" on all the possible people he Geassed. And it all made sense when they started to put two and two together. Even Toudou was getting shaken and Cornelia made them all doubt Deithard there by throwing out that Deithard already knew about a bunch of information that he got from Villetta and Jeremiah on the matter in S1. Schneizel had them there. It was all him, even Lelouch knew it was well played.
Ohgi wasn't the final straw, he was the man pulling the straws. The others were not buying into Schneizel's claims. Then Ohgi comes in and they start falling into line. Without Ohgi, he'd have had a much harder time with it, if he succeeded at all. It's a hell of a thing to get them to turn on their leader, but he had a man on the inside doing half the work and didn't even know it. At the very least, they would not have been so gung ho about murdering him without an explanation.

By the time Schneizel pulled out the "Geass Papers" (neat name), they had pretty much been sold already. They were too irrational to take a good look and realize these people were just guessing. "Pretty pictures" and all. Diethard played off his association very quickly, and they don't bring it up again, just like they don't bring up that Ohgi's consorting with a Britannian soldier in front of them (it amazes me to no end that not one person even thinks to call him on that relationship).

Lelouch knew he was screwed when he saw Schneizel, but lacking knowledge of what happened he just assumed that Schneizel convinced them. Schneizel is convincing, sure, and it's probably 50/50 or better that he would have won them over anyway, but Ohgi seriously tipped those scales from "rational removal from power" to "kill the bastard at any cost."

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Oh, I agree there. Schneizel wouldn't think twice about tossing away lives (even his own) if it will save a larger scale of them. Heck, when he knew Lelouch won he was ready to die, take Lelouch with him, and end everything once and for all and peace could really reign. (Till Lelouch Geassed him of course.)
He was never going to throw away his life so readily, at least not until that was the final option. Death was just inevitable at that point, or so he thought, and he rolled with it.

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Ahh, I kinda agree and disagree. Ozymandias didn't make the world hate himself, and he didn't get any punishment for what he did (Lelouch on the other hand did.) Schneizel is just as callous as Ozy and just as detactched when it comes to human lives. They both see them as needed sacrifices and nothing more. Lelouch sees those sacrifices as something more than what they do. Though Lelouch is also like Ozy as well.

Although Schneizel isn't completely callous. He could have easily of killed off Cornelia, but he didn't. He also didn't want to be greedy and wipe out the BK's with a FLEIA warhead when he very well could have.
Sure, Ozymandias dodged the bullet, so to speak, but the substance is the same. Ozy did see those deaths as necessary (people respond well to mass murder), as did Lelouch in killing thousands of soldiers to secure Damocles, not to mention his rule after that. People get the message that way. With Schneizel, the death itself is the message: "I did this and I can do it again."

That second part seems more a matter of pride than actually caring. Their lives didn't mean anything to him, since he shot at the Avalon when they were aboard it.

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Now you see, here I disagree. I see Schneizel as doing it because he feels that it HAS to be done and that he, being a man of power, has to do it even if he doesn't want too. He watched his father ignore current affairs and delve into the Occult while Schneizel had to watch and fight wars and run a superpower for his father who never took responsibility with his power. He had no desire to run the world (and Lelouch obviously knew that too since he knew what his brother was going to say when he made that recording.)
I still say it takes some desire, or he wouldn't have been plotting against Charles back in season 1. Same with Lelouch. His actions were motivated by a desire. He wanted a change and had to be the one to make it happen.
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Old 2009-05-08, 05:50   Link #9
Levy
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now this is an interesting thread =)

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Lelouch knew he was screwed when he saw Schneizel, but lacking knowledge of what happened he just assumed that Schneizel convinced them. Schneizel is convincing, sure, and it's probably 50/50 or better that he would have won them over anyway, but Ohgi seriously tipped those scales from "rational removal from power" to "kill the bastard at any cost."
ahaah LOL, after having disagreed so much on this, now you brought up a point I can agree with. I don't think that Schneizel was sure to have such an easy game in making the BK lose all of their trust in Zero, and underestimated their emotive reaction and personal hatred toward him as he undiclosed his files, and there you have to start to wonder why...
but... it was not just Ohgi that felt affected personally by Lelouch's betrayal. Take for example the pained look with wich Tohdoh remebers Asahina's last word and the way he called his name: that event affected him too on a personal level - he might seem more rightfull in his emotive reaction, because being affected by the loss of a comrade is commonly considered an honorable thing, but it's not being 'rational' either. You can easily assume that the same thing goes for Chiba.
And all of this is perfectly understandable on an emotive level.

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just like they don't bring up that Ohgi's consorting with a Britannian soldier in front of them (it amazes me to no end that not one person even thinks to call him on that relationship).
we'll never know if and when they did - that is a side plot that was not developed if not offscreen, and in ep.19 all things concerning Zero were much more of a priority then investigating about the previous relationship between Ohgi and Villetta. It's not that him being in love with Villetta changes anything about the evidences Schneizel presented and that Villetta was able to confirm - because, for the tenth times of more, Ohgi knows from before falling for her that Villetta was aware of Zero's true identity, that was the reason why he sheltered her...

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I still say it takes some desire, or he wouldn't have been plotting against Charles back in season 1. Same with Lelouch. His actions were motivated by a desire. He wanted a change and had to be the one to make it happen.
are you sure he did...? because, I'm not that fresh on s1, but Schneizel was the one encouraging Euphie to go ahead with the SAZ, even thought, that would have meant reducing the egemony of Britannia. But the SAZ was also a way to stop the guerrilla in Area11, because inviting Zero to join it, Euphie had cornered him in accepting to bury the hatchet or became an enemy of the same nation he was claiming to fight for...
This makes sense with the idea that Schneizel was more than ready to accept compromises in order to obtain peace, even loosing some territories, if that would turn out as the more effective solution.

Another thing I'm quite confused about is, when does Schneizel realized that also the new Zero was Lelouch?
I think he knew already at their meeting in China....
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Old 2009-05-08, 09:29   Link #10
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now this is an interesting thread =)



ahaah LOL, after having disagreed so much on this, now you brought up a point I can agree with. I don't think that Schneizel was sure to have such an easy game in making the BK lose all of their trust in Zero, and underestimated their emotive reaction and personal hatred toward him as he undiclosed his files, and there you have to start to wonder why...
but... it was not just Ohgi that felt affected personally by Lelouch's betrayal. Take for example the pained look with wich Tohdoh remebers Asahina's last word and the way he called his name: that event affected him too on a personal level - he might seem more rightfull in his emotive reaction, because being affected by the loss of a comrade is commonly considered an honorable thing, but it's not being 'rational' either. You can easily assume that the same thing goes for Chiba.
And all of this is perfectly understandable on an emotive level.


we'll never know if and when they did - that is a side plot that was not developed if not offscreen, and in ep.19 all things concerning Zero were much more of a priority then investigating about the previous relationship between Ohgi and Villetta. It's not that him being in love with Villetta changes anything about the evidences Schneizel presented and that Villetta was able to confirm - because, for the tenth times of more, Ohgi knows from before falling for her that Villetta was aware of Zero's true identity, that was the reason why he sheltered her...



are you sure he did...? because, I'm not that fresh on s1, but Schneizel was the one encouraging Euphie to go ahead with the SAZ, even thought, that would have meant reducing the egemony of Britannia. But the SAZ was also a way to stop the guerrilla in Area11, because inviting Zero to join it, Euphie had cornered him in accepting to bury the hatchet or became an enemy of the same nation he was claiming to fight for...
This makes sense with the idea that Schneizel was more than ready to accept compromises in order to obtain peace, even loosing some territories, if that would turn out as the more effective solution.

Another thing I'm quite confused about is, when does Schneizel realized that also the new Zero was Lelouch?
I think he knew already at their meeting in China....
Toudou was more justified in my eyes because it is in keeping with his beliefs. He made it perfectly clear that he would turn on Zero if Zero harmed the Japanese. Asahina's testimony from that guy gave him the doubts in Zero, it was not purely an emotional response from Toudou but rather one that is born from evidence that Asahina presented to him as well as his own beliefs and goals.

The problem with the idea that Villetta confirming for Ougi about Zero is that she had no evidence of anything either other then her word for it. Ougi took Villetta at her word, the word of an enemy soldier that tried to kill him twice. Schneizel really had nothing but circumstantial evidence to pull it off and Villetta did not even have anything. Schneizel's geass files was just a bunch of folders with people in it that they think Lelouch used some, as of then, never before heard of mystical power to bewitch. They really had no evidence to speak of that did not involve the Black Knights having to actually trust them as a source of information in such a critical time in their war with Britannia. The only semi concrete thing they have was the recording with Suzaku, but such things can be faked, and even Kallen remarked in season one that just the voice carrying over a radio is not enough to identify someone, the recording is not much better.

Schneizel accepted the SAZ to corner Zero. It was not really a loss of territory for Britannia considering that Britannia still had control over it. Once the Black Knights were demilitarized and/or contained, nothing is really there to make Britannia honour their agreement. Infact it may even be tempting for them to arrange some massive accident for the SAZ as it contains all the numbers that are unwilling to conform with Britannian society. We simply do not know much about Schneizel in season one, or two for that matter.
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Old 2009-05-08, 15:41   Link #11
morbosfist
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we'll never know if and when they did - that is a side plot that was not developed if not offscreen, and in ep.19 all things concerning Zero were much more of a priority then investigating about the previous relationship between Ohgi and Villetta. It's not that him being in love with Villetta changes anything about the evidences Schneizel presented and that Villetta was able to confirm - because, for the tenth times of more, Ohgi knows from before falling for her that Villetta was aware of Zero's true identity, that was the reason why he sheltered her...
Sure, Ohgi knows that, but the others have no reason to trust her, yet they neither call it into question when it matters nor later on when she's standing on the bridge. It boggles the mind that they don't even address it. But that's a side issue.

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are you sure he did...? because, I'm not that fresh on s1, but Schneizel was the one encouraging Euphie to go ahead with the SAZ, even thought, that would have meant reducing the egemony of Britannia. But the SAZ was also a way to stop the guerrilla in Area11, because inviting Zero to join it, Euphie had cornered him in accepting to bury the hatchet or became an enemy of the same nation he was claiming to fight for...
This makes sense with the idea that Schneizel was more than ready to accept compromises in order to obtain peace, even loosing some territories, if that would turn out as the more effective solution.
Peace is peace, and Euphie's idea was a quick way to stifle the growing resistance in Area 11. Once it became clear that such a simple tactic wouldn't fly, and he got wind of nukes, Schneizel just decided to go for the quickest route.

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Another thing I'm quite confused about is, when does Schneizel realized that also the new Zero was Lelouch?
I think he knew already at their meeting in China....
How could he? Lelouch is dead for all he knows. He could have only have known for sure once Lelouch was captured.
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Old 2009-05-08, 18:49   Link #12
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Wasn't it the meeting between Lelouch and Suzaku that confirmed for Schneizel that the former was Zero?

It was very hypocritical of the BKs to not put Ohgi on blast for almost willingly dying on account of Villetta.
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Old 2009-05-08, 18:49   Link #13
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Sidenote:

Am I the only one that didn't find Schniezel all that charismatic? IIRC Schn' was mentioned as being a charismatic leader. Which would be a reasonable assessment since high charisma makes it easier for you to get people to believe in you. But I just didn't see it really, IMO Lelouch was leagues ahead of him as charismatic leader.
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Old 2009-05-08, 18:53   Link #14
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I'd agree with you yvj, but to be fair, Schneizel just never really had much of a chance to display his charismatic side considering that Britannian soldiers are all fiercely loyal anyways. In comparison, Lelouch had to build an army from terrorist cells and mold them into a force that could contend with Britannia. Schneizel already had resources to work with while Lelouch made his.
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Old 2009-05-08, 18:55   Link #15
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Wasn't it the meeting between Lelouch and Suzaku that confirmed for Schneizel that the former was Zero?

It was very hypocritical of the BKs to not put Ohgi on blast for almost willingly dying on account of Villetta.
Yes and yes it was. That and the fact that we don't hear word one from either Kaguya or Xingke about their lie makes it all the more annoying. I really wish they hadn't glossed over that.

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Sidenote:

Am I the only one that didn't find Schniezel all that charismatic? IIRC Schn' was mentioned as being a charismatic leader. Which would be a reasonable assessment since high charisma makes it easier to for you to get people to believe in you. But I just didn't see it really, IMO Lelouch was leagues ahead of him as charismatic leader.
Lelouch is the large ham. Schneizel is soft-spoken but carries the same charm.
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Old 2009-05-08, 19:07   Link #16
yvj
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Lelouch is the large ham. Schneizel is soft-spoken but carries the same charm.
Did they have the same charm? Its said Schneizel "cared" for his subordinates and treated them right. Yeah that would gain the support of guys directly under his control. But he wasn't "Britanian" like Charles and Cornelia, he had no larger than life persona, and to me he seemed very distant to even Kanon who was raging internally for the guy.

Yeah he can spin tales with the best of them but he lacks the charisma IMO, which is likely why he chose Nunnaly to be the figurehead of the Empire.
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Old 2009-05-08, 19:12   Link #17
demon_god04
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Did they have the same charm? Its said Schneizel "cared" for his subordinates and treated them right. Yeah that would gain the support of guys directly under his control. But he wasn't "Britanian" like Charles and Cornelia, he had no larger than life persona, and to me he seemed very distant to even Kanon who was raging internally for the guy.

Yeah he can spin tales with the best of them but he lacks the charisma IMO, which is likely why he chose Nunnaly to be the figurehead of the Empire.
Schneizel had his reputation of conquering half of Europe, even Xingke had a healthy respect for the guy. But the fact that was able to inspire such loyalty in subordinates like Kanon despite being distant means that he does have some measure of charisma.

To be honest, I believe he chose Nunally more for the reason to shake up Lelouch then anything else.
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Old 2009-05-08, 19:18   Link #18
Orga777
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Originally Posted by yvj View Post
Sidenote:

Am I the only one that didn't find Schniezel all that charismatic? IIRC Schn' was mentioned as being a charismatic leader. Which would be a reasonable assessment since high charisma makes it easier for you to get people to believe in you. But I just didn't see it really, IMO Lelouch was leagues ahead of him as charismatic leader.
Whaaa? Lelouch well ahead as a charismatic leader? XD Sorry, I don't see that actually. Mr. "I Geass to get what I want" and Mr. "I Hide Behind a Mask" doesn't make someone charismatic. Sure he lead the BKs effectively, but did ANY of them really trust him? No... not really... They teamed together out of convienence and only because Zero could produce "miracles." Schneizel on the other hand does not hide his face, nor does he have any magical powers at his disposal. He got everyone on his side without the need for that. Shit, after Lelouch got chased out of the Ikaruga Schneizel was sitting down discussing what to do between him and the BKs and then asked for HELP against that "coup" attempt... and they agreed? XD Oh Schneizel has Lelouch beat in the charisma department... Not that Lelouch is not charismatic, but he doesn't measure up to Schneizel in my eyes.

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Originally Posted by morbosfist
Ohgi wasn't the final straw, he was the man pulling the straws. The others were not buying into Schneizel's claims. Then Ohgi comes in and they start falling into line. Without Ohgi, he'd have had a much harder time with it, if he succeeded at all. It's a hell of a thing to get them to turn on their leader, but he had a man on the inside doing half the work and didn't even know it. At the very least, they would not have been so gung ho about murdering him without an explanation.
Weren't buying Schneizel's claims? I don't agree there. They were slowly being convinced. It would have taken a little longer, but I don't have any doubt that Schneizel would have had them won over eventually.

Quote:
By the time Schneizel pulled out the "Geass Papers" (neat name), they had pretty much been sold already. They were too irrational to take a good look and realize these people were just guessing. "Pretty pictures" and all. Diethard played off his association very quickly, and they don't bring it up again, just like they don't bring up that Ohgi's consorting with a Britannian soldier in front of them (it amazes me to no end that not one person even thinks to call him on that relationship).
I think it was more than just "pretty pictures." Probably well researched strange behavior that is all put together that is unexplainable in other words.

Quote:
Lelouch knew he was screwed when he saw Schneizel, but lacking knowledge of what happened he just assumed that Schneizel convinced them. Schneizel is convincing, sure, and it's probably 50/50 or better that he would have won them over anyway, but Ohgi seriously tipped those scales from "rational removal from power" to "kill the bastard at any cost."
Now I will agree that if Schneizel wonthem over without Ougi, they probably wouldn't have decided to kill him on the spot. Mostly because Schneizel wanted Lelouch alive (which I actually find quite strange... and helps my views on his outlook.)

Quote:
He was never going to throw away his life so readily, at least not until that was the final option. Death was just inevitable at that point, or so he thought, and he rolled with it.
I know that. But he also couldn't care LESS that he was going to die. Which was my point. XD

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Sure, Ozymandias dodged the bullet, so to speak, but the substance is the same. Ozy did see those deaths as necessary (people respond well to mass murder), as did Lelouch in killing thousands of soldiers to secure Damocles, not to mention his rule after that. People get the message that way. With Schneizel, the death itself is the message: "I did this and I can do it again."
Well, I won't argue that... Still see it slightly different though.

Quote:
That second part seems more a matter of pride than actually caring. Their lives didn't mean anything to him, since he shot at the Avalon when they were aboard it.
Well, Cornelia wasn't in the Avalon... as for the BKs, he gave them a time limit before he fired a FLEIA directly at the Avalon... and they succeeded in that time limit and did not fire at them after that. He may not of cared, but he kept in character by needlessly killing for just his goals. He has some honor after all.

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I still say it takes some desire, or he wouldn't have been plotting against Charles back in season 1. Same with Lelouch. His actions were motivated by a desire. He wanted a change and had to be the one to make it happen.
Question... when did he really plot behind his fathers back? He didn't move till he was pushed into it by Suzaku to act. Wasn't there a magazine article withthe staff of CG pretty much that went into how Schneizel had no desires to do a whole lot right before the whole Damocles final battle aired?
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Old 2009-05-08, 19:30   Link #19
demon_god04
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Whaaa? Lelouch well ahead as a charismatic leader? XD Sorry, I don't see that actually. Mr. "I Geass to get what I want" and Mr. "I Hide Behind a Mask" doesn't make someone charismatic. Sure he lead the BKs effectively, but did ANY of them really trust him? No... not really... They teamed together out of convienence and only because Zero could produce "miracles." Schneizel on the other hand does not hide his face, nor does he have any magical powers at his disposal. He got everyone on his side without the need for that. Shit, after Lelouch got chased out of the Ikaruga Schneizel was sitting down discussing what to do between him and the BKs and then asked for HELP against that "coup" attempt... and they agreed? XD Oh Schneizel has Lelouch beat in the charisma department... Not that Lelouch is not charismatic, but he doesn't measure up to Schneizel in my eyes.



Question... when did he really plot behind his fathers back? He didn't move till he was pushed into it by Suzaku to act. Wasn't there a magazine article withthe staff of CG pretty much that went into how Schneizel had no desires to do a whole lot right before the whole Damocles final battle aired?
The very fact is that Lelouch molded them from terrorists and whatever else that had different ideologies and methods into a single cohesive fighting force that threatened one of the world powers. Zero is not about the identity but about what he can accomplish. The very fact that despite the Black Knights coming from different backgrounds, ideals and did not completely trust him because he hid his identity was still able to work together effectively under his command spoke volumes about Lelouch's charisma.

Season one, Charles was given word how Schneizel was planning something and Charles did his crazy laugh and said to let Schneizel challenge him if he thinks he can.
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Old 2009-05-08, 19:30   Link #20
morbosfist
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Whaaa? Lelouch well ahead as a charismatic leader? XD Sorry, I don't see that actually. Mr. "I Geass to get what I want" and Mr. "I Hide Behind a Mask" doesn't make someone charismatic. Sure he lead the BKs effectively, but did ANY of them really trust him? No... not really... They teamed together out of convienence and only because Zero could produce "miracles."
How Lelouch won over the Black Knights is charisma, half of it not even Geass-related. It's charisma when you can tell your subordinates to shoot you if they think they can do a better job, and they shut up and obey. What you mention at the top doesn't detract from his charisma, the Geass because he does it secretly and the mask is actually part of it.

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Schneizel on the other hand does not hide his face, nor does he have any magical powers at his disposal. He got everyone on his side without the need for that. Shit, after Lelouch got chased out of the Ikaruga Schneizel was sitting down discussing what to do between him and the BKs and then asked for HELP against that "coup" attempt... and they agreed? XD Oh Schneizel has Lelouch beat in the charisma department... Not that Lelouch is not charismatic, but he doesn't measure up to Schneizel in my eyes.
He already had everyone on his side. Prince and Prime Minister, remember? These people obey without question. Second, Schneizel didn't ask for help. He left to deal with it and Kaguya insisted on joining because Zero was surely there.

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Weren't buying Schneizel's claims? I don't agree there. They were slowly being convinced. It would have taken a little longer, but I don't have any doubt that Schneizel would have had them won over eventually.
Maybe, more than likely in fact, but they would not have been so irrational, and certainly not so accommodating, without Ohgi waving the banner.

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Originally Posted by Orga777 View Post
I think it was more than just "pretty pictures." Probably well researched strange behavior that is all put together that is unexplainable in other words.
Still circumstantial, and in some cases outright wrong. It's even worded as such in the few entries that the viewer can read. They tossed a bunch of speculation in front of their faces for shock value. Anyone reading it would have dismissed it.

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Originally Posted by Orga777 View Post
Now I will agree that if Schneizel wonthem over without Ougi, they probably wouldn't have decided to kill him on the spot. Mostly because Schneizel wanted Lelouch alive (which I actually find quite strange... and helps my views on his outlook.)
Lelouch knew more about their father than he did. Probably wanted him for that.

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I know that. But he also couldn't care LESS that he was going to die. Which was my point. XD
Okay, but he didn't care because it was his victory. He won dead or alive because Lelouch would be dead.

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Originally Posted by Orga777 View Post
Well, Cornelia wasn't in the Avalon... as for the BKs, he gave them a time limit before he fired a FLEIA directly at the Avalon... and they succeeded in that time limit and did not fire at them after that. He may not of cared, but he kept in character by needlessly killing for just his goals. He has some honor after all.
He fired at the Avalon when Lelouch left it and would have vaped them all if not for the anti-FLEIJA being used. Not to mention the time limit is the reload time for the nuke.

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Originally Posted by Orga777 View Post
Question... when did he really plot behind his fathers back? He didn't move till he was pushed into it by Suzaku to act. Wasn't there a magazine article withthe staff of CG pretty much that went into how Schneizel had no desires to do a whole lot right before the whole Damocles final battle aired?
They make mention of it offhand when Charles is in the Thought Elevator at one point. And yeah, I remember that magazine description. There's still some desire there, though, enough to exploit Nina's bomb (because she sure as hell didn't think up the flying nuke gun fortress).
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