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Old 2009-04-25, 22:56   Link #441
Vicious108
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He might have something like Code Geass' Knight of One's ability. Or something like Dominic the Cyclops from Trigun. We'll probably find out when he finally needs to go all out in a fight. Gotta wonder when that'll be. >_>

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Originally Posted by Jarmel View Post
if they want to stop Mustang from just going berserk then best way would be for Ed to Envy(very much not likely).
Do you mean kill? If so that's rather illogical, you'd stop a berserked man obsessed with revenge by killing his most desired prey right in front of him? Yeah, that's bound to make him less angry. Or not.
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Old 2009-04-25, 23:58   Link #442
ItsTheMatthias
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Originally Posted by Endless Twilight View Post
He might have something like Code Geass' Knight of One's ability. Or something like Dominic the Cyclops from Trigun. We'll probably find out when he finally needs to go all out in a fight. Gotta wonder when that'll be. >_>



Do you mean kill? If so that's rather illogical, you'd stop a berserked man obsessed with revenge by killing his most desired prey right in front of him? Yeah, that's bound to make him less angry. Or not.
Or a fight between Ed and Roy would be nice. It would be pretty cool but then I can't see it making sense with how the storyline is going... unless he's about blow up Ed and Envy at the same time and then Hawkeye stops him. *DRAMAA OMGG*
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Old 2009-04-26, 00:31   Link #443
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There will definitely be some drama between Ed and Mustang. I have a really bad feeling about this but the chances of Hawkeye dying is pretty likely. Right now, what is missing from this series for it to reach the finale is a 5th sacrifice. Since the series is getting close to ending, it would be too late to introduce someone now. The person most fitting to be the sacrifice is Mustang but he would need to open the gate. For that to happen, Hawkeye has to die or something.
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Old 2009-04-26, 01:53   Link #444
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Uh wasn't Mustang already eligible as a sacrifice? Or was it just a "potential sacrifice"? My memory of stuff like that isn't so good anymore. (which is why I've recently started to reread the whole thing)

And who are the other 4 sacrifices again? Ed, Al, Izumi I remember. Who's the 4th? Hohenheim?

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Or a fight between Ed and Roy would be nice. It would be pretty cool but then I can't see it making sense with how the storyline is going... unless he's about blow up Ed and Envy at the same time and then Hawkeye stops him. *DRAMAA OMGG*
Let's not forget Scar is also there. It'll be interesting to see what his contribution to the whole scenario will be.
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Old 2009-04-26, 02:29   Link #445
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What would be the point of Hawkeye dying? If she dies she can't be brought back by Mustang even if he does open the doors.
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Old 2009-04-26, 02:59   Link #446
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The four sacrifices right now are Ed, Al, Honenheim (slave #23) and Izumi. Izumi is only a sacrificial candidate though. (Chapter 73) Mustang is not one of them as of right now.

It may not seem rational for Hawkeye to die. But in the eyes of the Father and the homunculi, human lives are worthless. If killing Hawkeye can bring in another sacrifice, that would be pretty worthwhile to do it.

The death of Hawkeye is only a "possibility." Maybe Mustang will open the gate using another method. We saw Ed do it with the philosopher's stone to pay the toll fee. It is just that killing Hawkeye would knock Mustang's emotions that much more unstable and trigger him to do something reckless.

(Of course I don't want Hawkeye to die. I like her character.)
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Old 2009-04-26, 03:05   Link #447
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I really don't see Hawkeye dying. Roy has already lost Hughes and if Hawkeye were to follow it'd be pretty hard for his character to recover.
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Old 2009-04-26, 18:04   Link #448
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I believe that the term used was "potential sacrifice". Sacrifice seems to refer to people who have opened the gates of truth, such as way back when the were fighting lust, and Al uses alchemy without a circle, Lust then calls him a "confirmed sacrifice" I believe. Anyway, I always thought that the ultimate eye that Wrath uses was just simply something like super reaction time. But I could always be wrong.
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Old 2009-04-26, 22:33   Link #449
Jarmel
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Originally Posted by Endless Twilight View Post
He might have something like Code Geass' Knight of One's ability. Or something like Dominic the Cyclops from Trigun. We'll probably find out when he finally needs to go all out in a fight. Gotta wonder when that'll be. >_>



Do you mean kill? If so that's rather illogical, you'd stop a berserked man obsessed with revenge by killing his most desired prey right in front of him? Yeah, that's bound to make him less angry. Or not.
My bad I forgot to put kill. Yes it would make sense as it would make the person realize what they are doing this for. If Mustang is so hell bent on killing Envy what happeens when someone else does it? You have too options either to snap out of it or go a rampage. It would essentially allow him an introspective moment that what Hawkeye's pointing the gun at the back of his head was supposed to do.
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Old 2009-04-27, 02:19   Link #450
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Well he'd most likely be able to rethink his current state of being, but probably only after doing some kind of impulsive damage first, before actually calming down enough to have said introspective moment. Which could lead to him having some serious regrets and more anguish if said damage were irreversible. (like, say, turning Ed into barbecue)
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Old 2009-04-27, 06:20   Link #451
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I know this is a philosophy battle as much as anything, but killing Envy hardly seems like a big deal (morally) at this point. Envy's a fun character, but keeping him alive just isn't a good idea.
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Old 2009-04-27, 07:09   Link #452
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No one's argueing that Envy doesn't deserve death, that's not what the moral conflict is about. It's about what's fueling Mustang to kill him and how it will end up harming Mustang himself.

And as long as they're not careless, Envy's pretty harmless in that embryo-like form. And as stated before, they could still use him to guide them throughout that place and thus reach Father, so it might not be so wise to kill him already.
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Old 2009-04-28, 08:30   Link #453
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But, wasn't Father existing (in an homunculus form? when Hohen still was just a slave?
Well, according to him he does not know how he came to be in that form in the flask, but mentions that it was Hohenheim's blood that gave him life, and Hohenheim's master was the one that made it possible, but we still have no idea just what in the world his master did to create (or bring out) him. I wonder if the master opened the Gate...?

As for Mustang, he's the only possible sacrifice candidate that has not opened or have the knowledge of the Gate yet. Will he be put into such circumstance that forces him to open it? Worst case scenario would be something happening to Hawkeye which would definitely strip him of his sanity especially in his current state when he's so consumed by hatred and vengeance as mentioned above, but... I DON'T WANT THAT! I will hate Arakawa forever if she ever kills Riza off! >_<
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Old 2009-04-28, 08:46   Link #454
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As for Mustang, he's the only possible sacrifice candidate that has not opened or have the knowledge of the Gate yet.
Don't forget Marcoh. He is on the same line than Mustang for sacrifice : a strong possibility, but not confirmed.
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Old 2009-04-28, 17:53   Link #455
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Oh yeah! How could I forget about Marcoh?!
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Old 2009-05-08, 06:05   Link #456
Gooral
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Meh let him kill Envy kinda get annoyed with this whole you shouldn't kill for revenge BS that most manga and other media do. This is why I love the Korean movie Sympathy for Lady Vengeance every victim that lost their child got their turn in torturing the bastard that killed their child and finally killing him. Afterwards they all get coffee and feel relieved for finally getting revenge/vengence for their children. Such an awesome movie.
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Why didn't they let Roy burn the motherfucker for good?
Manga morals are too soft.
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No one's feeling sorry for the cow? You guys suck

That said, I am a bit annoyed with Ed and the others being all soft on this guy. This is a war. You kill your enemies in a war. Period.
Exactly. Mustang literally fried innocent Ishvar people and now it would be bad for him to kill a MASS MURDERER? IMO it wouldn't make him worse person, on the contrary, he would make a favor to all humanity. And the fact that he wants to kill her (I know Envy's a guy but he looks like a girl) out of revenge (or mainly because of it) doesn't change anything. "Revenge is bad " thing is bullshit in Roy's case. When Mustang killed Ishvarans he caused pain and suffering not only for the ones he killed but also their families and friends. He made people sh*t in their pants, he knew no mercy. So yes, I think that killing Envy, which will cause no pain to anyone else other than Envy, (on the contrary, it will only bring good things) is totally different.

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The other factor is that while Envy is clearly a dangerous enemy and not a human, that doesn't give anyone the right to kill a defenseless being. It would be one thing if the battle was on even ground (like with Lust), and killing the enemy is the only option in a do or die scenario. It's completely another case when you have completely incapacitated the enemy and still want to finish it off for revenge.
This is BS. Mustang could have burned only some parts of Lust's body and only immobilize her but decided to finish her off because he knew that if he didn't he might not have that much luck next time. Killing her would be no different from killing Lust when she was being burned to death. In fact killing Lust was worse because she relied only on PS and couldn't rejuvenate by absorbing others (I think it's Envy's unique ability).

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That simply is not right. It might be okay in a lot of popular action movies and series to do it just because the bad guy killed a lot of the good guy's friends, but that's clearly not the message that Arakawa wants to send in her story. Envy's unique property of not being able to be killed in his regular forms does give him an unfair advantage over just and moral people, yes. But that does not mean that it's okay to shed those values simply to finish him off.
The problem is in most series/movies we've got moral: "revenge is always bad". In Mustang's case - not at all. He's done worse things and it didn't change him, why would killing Envy would? By killing her he saves many lives and I can't see a better way to neutralize Envy. As long as she lives people's lives are in danger. Period. If Arakawa wants to moralize: "you can never kill out of revenge but you can let someone else do it" I would laugh at her. If Envy isn't killed by Mustang then I don't want her to die at all.
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Old 2009-05-08, 06:48   Link #457
Kirarakim
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"If I ever stray from the correct path shoot me with your own hands"

Comparing what Mustang did in Ishval to what he is doing now is ridiculous because Mustang knows what he did in Ishval was wrong. This is why he is trying to fix the country in the first place. Mustang is on the path to protect everyone he can so they can protect everyone they can. This is why Riza and the others follow him because they believe in this goal.

Killing Envy for revenge was not part of Mustang's goal. You can say it doesn't matter because Envy is evil and deserves to die. But it's not about what someone deserves in this case. It is about what this is doing to Mustang. And it is already hurting him. Just look at his face, just look at how he yells at Riza. He only cares about revenge. That is not the Mustang that fights to protect those around him. You can say he will recover but you don't know that, but the point is the here and now.

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This is BS. Mustang could have burned only some parts of Lust's body and only immobilize her but decided to finish her off because he knew that if he didn't he might not have that much luck next time. Killing her would be no different from killing Lust when she was being burned to death. In fact killing Lust was worse because she relied only on PS and couldn't rejuvenate by absorbing others (I think it's Envy's unique ability).
Sorry but this is not BS. When Mustang was fighting Lust he was fighting her with the sole intention of protecting Riza, Al, and Havoc. Until Roy killed her, Lust would continue to regenerate, so no he could not just immobilize her. The only way to stop her was to kill her.

As for Envy it's true that he could possibly regenerate in that form (as we already saw) but at this point unlike Lust he is completely helpless. And keep in mind we don't know what they will end up doing with Envy.
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Old 2009-05-08, 07:40   Link #458
Gooral
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@Kirarakim
And how does killing Envy interfere with achieving his goal? He kills mass murderer - everyone is happy, he can go and become the boss.

Also, I disagree that revenge is hurting Mustang. Why should it? As for yelling at Riza, big deal. He perfectly knows what he's doing and isn't blinded by revenge. If he were he would take Riza down and then killed Envy. If he were, he wouldn't try to talk with Ed but kill Envy immediately risking that Ed would be burned too (although we've seen that he can control his flames very well when he burned Envy's eyes in her human form). And his expression isn't much different than when he was killing (and torturing too) Lust:


As for Lust, of course he could immobilize her. He could burn only her limbs until she couldn't regenerate them anymore. Read again volume 8 when Wrath is killing and immobilizing Greed. At some point he couldn't regenerate anymore, he had to be killed enough times and when he was weakend had his limbs cut off.

If you want to discuss it any further then please read my previous posts regarding this matter starting from this one
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Old 2009-05-08, 08:01   Link #459
Kirarakim
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He wasn't torturing Lust and he wasn't taking pleasure in it. In the Lust chapter Roy's expression is tense but that is because he is concentrated on fighting Lust and protecting his friends. I am not saying he was not angry about Havoc but it was still totally different. In chapter 94 his eyes are full of pure hatred and his sole purpose in fighting Envy was to get revenge. The hatred had festered in his mind since Hughes died way back in Volume 4. This is not healthy

And I also don't think yelling at Riza shows that Roy was in his right state of mind at that moment. This is when Roy is yelling at Riza, just look at his eyes and how angry he is. And this is how he is reacting to someone he cares deeply about. So yes I do think it is a big deal.



And for the record Greed did come back. That Greed did not regenerate because his stone was used up but because the stone was not destroyed Father was able to bring him back. The reason why Lust was not able to be brought back because her stone was completely destroyed. I'm still not really sure how Roy would have immobilized her or even if he would have understood how. After all you are comparing Bradley who is knowledgeable about Greed and Roy who is not that knowledgeable about Lust or the homunculus at that point.

Last edited by Kirarakim; 2009-05-08 at 08:28.
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Old 2009-05-08, 08:24   Link #460
Gooral
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(...)
And for the record Greed did come back.
So? What's your point? I don't understand why you're stating the obvious.

Of course Mustang knew how to immobilize her. Lust herself revealed all that he needed to know to do that. Roy preferred to kill her though. It was safer to do that and he could fulfill his revenge by the way.
With Envy it's safer to kill her then to leave her be and by the way he can fulfill his revenge too.

And I see you're too lazy to read my previous posts so I'll repeat myself.

I have to point out that it looked as if Mustang killed people in cold blood, there was no sign of emotion when he fried people, even the ones that had no strength to fight back. What's more a while later he cheerfully talked with Hughes! He was smiling, although moment earlier he was slaughtering men. Now that is wicked. Killing someone under strong emotions such as rage would make it more justifiable because under rage you're not your normal self. In Ishvar Mustang was his normal self and still killed.
That's why I disagree that you can compare Scar and Mustang in this particular context. Scar killed because of his anger and sorrow (which is a palliation IMO) BUT he had been doing it for a long time, Mustang wants to kill in such manner only ONCE, his revenge will be fulfilled with this. Besides, Scar killed anyone that stood in his way, he was ready to kill even a child that had nothing to do with slaughter of Ishvarans (he was ready to kill Ed, Al, even Winry if she would try to shoot him), on the other hand we have Mustang that wants to kill MASS MURDERER. Even if it's only "out of rage" it is better reason than "because he was ordered to".

Scar lived only for revenge (see last page of ch. 61), for Mustang fulfilling revenge wasn't priority. He didn't abandon his ideals or ambitions, he didn't abandon his friends/compatriots. He didn't kill Maria Ross, he even helped her. He thoroughly examined her before he would do sth stupid, contrary to Scar.
True, the moment Envy showed him how Hughes was killed he snapped but wasn't blinded. He was methodical, didn't fall for Envy's tricks and watched out so he wouldn't burn anyone else (Ed or other shrimps). If runt didn't interrupt him it would be over, 3 seconds and his revenge would be fulfilled and he could go back and flirt again. Surely he could only change for the better getting rid of his burden. When you do something under strong emotions you're not completely sane and that works perfectly as 'mental cushion'. If you've done something in such a state of mind you can go back to your usual self more easily, even more so if you've done sth good by the way (and killing Envy is a good thing). If you still believe that they're the same then I have solid argument for you: Scar, even after so much pain he had caused, could change for the better. Why do you assume that someone better than him wouldn't go back to his former self? If we were to take Scar as an example, Mustang could only gain by killing Envy.

I'm saying that killing mass murderer won't change him because he killed before and killed not mass murderers but innocent people. If killing didn't change him for worse then killing again someone that actually deserves wouldn't either (even more so). By killing Envy he wouldn't abandon his principles. He would use his skills for himself but at the same time for all the people that Envy killed, made suffer or would kill/make suffer. He wouldn't cause pain to anyone else, wouldn't cause grief or suffering.
By killing Envy he loses nothing. I would compare his actions to breaking expensive vase when one was under strong emotions. Would you regret it? A bit maybe, but that wouldn't change you. Envy's life is worthless so he can kill her in rage and then go back to his former self as if nothing happened. People around him are making it worse than it has to be. Everyone are trying to stop him because there has to be a moral for children: "revenge is bad". 30 years old man, very experienced at that, can't change just like that.

Last edited by Gooral; 2009-05-08 at 08:37.
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