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Old 2009-05-08, 08:37   Link #461
Kirarakim
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Originally Posted by Gooral View Post
Of course Mustang knew how to immobilize her. Lust herself revealed all that he needed to know to do that. Roy preferred to kill her though. It was safer to do that and he could fulfill his revenge by the way.
With Envy it's safer to kill her then to leave her be and by the way he can fulfill his revenge too.
Um he wasn't trying to get revenge on Lust he was fighting her to protect Al, Riza and Havoc.

With Envy he was fighting him with the sole purpose to get revenge. Even at the start before Envy was helpless "let me handle this". It's because he wanted to be the one to hurt Envy, it had nothing to do with protecting anyone. And now Envy is completely defenseless so really I see no reason why Roy has to kill him especially since he only wants to kill him for revenge.

You can say that Roy could have just immobilized Lust but at no point when Roy was fighting Lust was she ever completely helpless. In fact even at the last minute it was an equal fight since right before Roy kills Lust she is about to strike him in the head. Whereas Envy is helpless at the moment in that form. The fight is over.


Oddly enough perhaps the Lust fight foreshadows what is going to happen in the Envy fight. Lust says before she dies that Roy's eyes are filled with determination but she knows that a day will come when his eyes will be filled with torment. Looking at Roy's eyes in this fight with Envy I would say Lust's predictions came true.


As for Scar he was on a very dark path for awhile. Yes Scar was luckily saved but he almost wasn't. In fact this is the point Scar himself can see that Roy is making the wrong decision because he was on that wrong path himself. For Scar revenge was wrong just like it would be wrong for Roy. And no I am not saying Roy would become like Scar and start attacking children. But I personally don't think what is happening to Roy at that very moment is a good thing. Even if he does get over it he is still going off that path that he set for himself.


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I have to point out that it looked as if Mustang killed people in cold blood, there was no sign of emotion when he fried people, even the ones that had no strength to fight back. What's more a while later he cheerfully talked with Hughes! He was smiling, although moment earlier he was slaughtering men. Now that is wicked. Killing someone under strong emotions such as rage would make it more justifiable because under rage you're not your normal self. In Ishvar Mustang was his normal self and still killed.
Roy was definitely not his normal self during Ishval. It effected him greatly. Read the gaiden "His Battlefield Once More". He was broken up about Ishval. But yes he went out and followed orders and somehow he didn't go crazy over it. I think having Hughes there with him helped a lot. But again he is fighting now because of Ishval because he doesn't want that to happen again.

Saying what he did in Ishval was worse does not really matter. It doesn't mean taking revenge now is the right thing to do.

Last edited by Kirarakim; 2009-05-08 at 09:09.
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Old 2009-05-08, 09:01   Link #462
Gooral
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Originally Posted by Kirarakim View Post
With Envy he was fighting him with the sole purpose to get revenge. (...)
I don't know how can you be so sure that it was his only purpose. Are you Arakawa? Why should others be slowed down when he was perfectly capable of taking care of it by himself? He was the best man for the job.
Why Envy should be killed? Because he will kill and make more people suffer, simple as that. If society can't defend itself in any other way than killing (and we know it can't, Envy's too powerful and his transforming abilities are too dangerous) then it is morally right to do so.

As for Lust, she was helpless. Mustang was sure of himself that he could kill her. He didn't even budge when she reached for him. He didn't try to burn her another time (although he could do that) only waited for her to fall for good.

As for foreshadowing, Lust's words are not referring to this situation (at least not yet). He has no sorrow in his eyes nor pain IMO.
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Old 2009-05-08, 09:17   Link #463
Kirarakim
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Originally Posted by Gooral View Post
I don't know how can you be so sure that it was his only purpose. Are you Arakawa? Why should others be slowed down when he was perfectly capable of taking care of it by himself? He was the best man for the job.
I don't know because it is pretty obvious and he only says it after he realizes Envy is the one that has killed Hughes


Quote:
Why Envy should be killed? Because he will kill and make more people suffer, simple as that. If society can't defend itself in any other way than killing (and we know it can't, Envy's too powerful and his transforming abilities are too dangerous) then it is morally right to do so.
How do you know that they won't stop Envy to make sure that this doesn't happen? As I said before you don't know what they are going to do with Envy. They only stopped Roy from taking revenge. Maybe it will be the wrong decision to not kill Envy but we don't know that yet.

Quote:
As for Lust, she was helpless. Mustang was sure of himself that he could kill her. He didn't even budge when she reached for him. He didn't try to burn her another time (although he could do that) only waited for her to fall for good.

She was not helpless. Neither Lust or Roy flinched at that final moment. Roy was just faster. If Lust was faster then Roy would have been killed. It's as simple as that. It's not that Roy knew Lust was a goner it was just kill or be killed.

Quote:
As for foreshadowing, Lust's words are not referring to this situation (at least not yet). He has no sorrow in his eyes nor pain IMO.
Well you can interpret it anyway you want but his eyes look like he is in torment to me. So I think it fits perfectly with Lust's words.

Last edited by Kirarakim; 2009-05-08 at 09:27.
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Old 2009-05-08, 09:47   Link #464
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I don't really see the point in this argument. The characters themselves believe Mustang shouldn't kill Envy like that, in the state of mind he's in or whatever his motives.
What's there to argue, anymore?
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Old 2009-05-08, 10:19   Link #465
Kirarakim
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Originally Posted by BetoJR View Post
I don't really see the point in this argument. The characters themselves believe Mustang shouldn't kill Envy like that, in the state of mind he's in or whatever his motives.
What's there to argue, anymore?

Well we are not really arguing we are just debating. Debates can get heated at times but it's just a disagreement.

Gooral feels Arakawa's message was wrong and I feel it was right. I think we both understand that the characters themselves feel what Roy is doing is wrong. Yes I guess eventually we will probably just have to agree to disagree.
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Old 2009-05-08, 10:20   Link #466
Sannom
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As for Lust, of course he could immobilize her. He could burn only her limbs until she couldn't regenerate them anymore. Read again volume 8 when Wrath is killing and immobilizing Greed. At some point he couldn't regenerate anymore, he had to be killed enough times and when he was weakend had his limbs cut off.
No. If a Homonculus can't regenerate anymore, that's because his stone is used up and destroyed. And since the stone is what is keeping their body together, when the stone is used up, their body vanishes, literally. The only exception is Envy, and that's probably because of the way he was created : instead of having his soul and mind and body all kept together in the stone, he has his own body not depending on the stone, and he can use any kind of stone to recreate a new body for himself, something that the others Homonculus can't do without help from their father.

Greed was not immobilized because he couldn't regenerate : Bradley aimed at the strange spots that are on every Homonculus' body, and that seemed to immobilize ("go to sleep", Bradley said) him.
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Old 2009-05-08, 11:02   Link #467
Gooral
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@Sannom
No. The stone uses condensed energy of people's souls, this energy is used for regeneration. At some point, when it's almost depleted one cannot regenerate anymore but can still live. Check chapter 56 again.

As for Greed, he was killed so many times that he couldn't regenerate and he was so weakened because he died so many times. It's all connected. If Bradley could immobilize Greed then Mustang should be able to do it too, but why bother?
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Old 2009-05-08, 11:10   Link #468
BetoJR
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And who said Bradley only immobilized Greed?
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Old 2009-05-08, 11:21   Link #469
Sannom
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As for Greed, he was killed so many times that he couldn't regenerate and he was so weakened because he died so many times. It's all connected. If Bradley could immobilize Greed then Mustang should be able to do it too, but why bother?
Mustang doesn't know the trick about the spots, that's all. Greed could still regenerate, seeing that he just regenerated his whole body just before being stabbed by Bradley. And even after that, you can see that his body is trying to regenerate his wounds in the Homonculus' lair :

http://www.onemanga.com/Full_Metal_Alchemist/31/16/
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Old 2009-05-08, 11:24   Link #470
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As for Greed, he was killed so many times that he couldn't regenerate and he was so weakened because he died so many times. It's all connected. If Bradley could immobilize Greed then Mustang should be able to do it too, but why bother?
Mustang doesn't know the trick about the spots, that's all. Greed could still regenerate, seeing that he just regenerated his whole body just before being stabbed by Bradley. And even after that, you can see that his body is trying to regenerate his wounds in the Homonculus' lair :

http://www.onemanga.com/Full_Metal_Alchemist/31/16/

As for Glutonny, he still had energy in the stone, but not enough to regenerate : how could Mustang know that? Plus, why he would do that against an enemy who can reach so far? Lust was extremely dangerous, but Envy isn't. He is weak, weak and weak. And once you kill him, it's easy to keep him in a jar and question him.
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Old 2009-05-08, 11:34   Link #471
Gooral
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Originally Posted by Sannom View Post
Mustang doesn't know the trick about the spots, that's all. (...)
What trick, what spots? Did I miss something? Where did you get this from that Greed was immobilized because he was stabbed at certain spots? I think you're over-interpreting things.
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Old 2009-05-08, 13:02   Link #472
Sannom
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The guy passed away because he had blades stuck in those spots! When have we seen a Homonculus sleep, except for Sloth? Those spots are special, like a weakness that only them know. A weakness that only the Homonculus born from human doesn't have.
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Old 2009-05-08, 21:17   Link #473
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Don't post scanslations here! Considering that we can't ask for where to find something liscensed I highly doubt we can make URL post to them.

I just found out that yes, you can not make post like that.

Last edited by Charred Knight; 2009-05-09 at 07:18.
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Old 2009-05-09, 21:49   Link #474
Terrestrial Dream
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Originally Posted by Gooral View Post
I don't know how can you be so sure that it was his only purpose. Are you Arakawa? Why should others be slowed down when he was perfectly capable of taking care of it by himself? He was the best man for the job.
Why Envy should be killed? Because he will kill and make more people suffer, simple as that. If society can't defend itself in any other way than killing (and we know it can't, Envy's too powerful and his transforming abilities are too dangerous) then it is morally right to do so.

As for Lust, she was helpless. Mustang was sure of himself that he could kill her. He didn't even budge when she reached for him. He didn't try to burn her another time (although he could do that) only waited for her to fall for good.

As for foreshadowing, Lust's words are not referring to this situation (at least not yet). He has no sorrow in his eyes nor pain IMO.
Then are you Arakawa? Right now you are creating your own explanation why would Mustang kill Envy and explanations without any implication from the manga. It is really heavily implied then he is killing Envy solely for his revenge, not some kind of moral or logical reason.
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Old 2009-05-10, 08:26   Link #475
Gooral
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Then are you Arakawa? Right now you are creating your own explanation why would Mustang kill Envy and explanations without any implication from the manga. It is really heavily implied then he is killing Envy solely for his revenge, not some kind of moral or logical reason.
Huh? No implications? The fact that Mustang didn't burn Ed (yet) nor he injured Riza implies that revenge is not everything that he thinks about now. And you used wrong quote to show that "now I'm creating my own explanation".
I disagree that it's his sole reason for revenge. Are you saying that he doesn't care about people killed by Envy? About Envy being the one that caused a war? It's only his main reason and it can be his main reason because he doesn't have to worry about his friends being hurt by Envy.
Unless Arakawa shows what goes in Mustang's mind you can't tell if I'm wrong or not.

And since I'm already writing in this thread I might as well respond to this:
Quote:
Originally Posted by Sannom View Post
The guy passed away because he had blades stuck in those spots! When have we seen a Homonculus sleep, except for Sloth? Those spots are special, like a weakness that only them know. A weakness that only the Homonculus born from human doesn't have.
lol
Look again into volume 8th, page 20 of 30th chapter (page 26th in my version of tankobon) and look at the beginning of chapter 56. What do we see? In both cases homonculi can't move. Would you say that Gluttony was laying down because he was hit at certain spots? Don't think so. And why are you assuming that Greed is sleeping?
Saying that those spots are special is a big over-interpretation.

BTW, we know what will happen to Envy, i.e.
Spoiler for 95th chapter:
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Old 2009-05-10, 09:15   Link #476
Terrestrial Dream
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Huh? No implications? The fact that Mustang didn't burn Ed (yet) nor he injured Riza implies that revenge is not everything that he thinks about now. And you used wrong quote to show that "now I'm creating my own explanation".
I disagree that it's his sole reason for revenge. Are you saying that he doesn't care about people killed by Envy? About Envy being the one that caused a war? It's only his main reason and it can be his main reason because he doesn't have to worry about his friends being hurt by Envy.
Unless Arakawa shows what goes in Mustang's mind you can't tell if I'm wrong or not.
What? The chapter ended before the confrontation of between Ed and Mustang, so obviously there won't be anything like that. And I really doubt Roy would burn Riza and Ed, possibly attack them but not kill them. And ok you are telling me that he is going after Envy because of what Envy did? Tell me then where are the implications to this? There is none, Roy got angry and attacked Envy because after he told Roy that it was him who killed Hughes. And the fact that Roy burned Envy when he transformed into Hughes without slight hesitation it show how much anger has consumed him. Also I could tell that you are wrong because the author is showing what is going on Mustang's mind indirectly. Don't expect the author to spoon feed you about everything.
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Old 2009-05-10, 09:34   Link #477
Gooral
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What? The chapter ended before the confrontation of between Ed and Mustang, so obviously there won't be anything like that. And I really doubt Roy would burn Riza and Ed, possibly attack them but not kill them. And ok you are telling me that he is going after Envy because of what Envy did? Tell me then where are the implications to this? There is none, Roy got angry and attacked Envy because after he told Roy that it was him who killed Hughes. And the fact that Roy burned Envy when he transformed into Hughes without slight hesitation it show how much anger has consumed him. Also I could tell that you are wrong because the author is showing what is going on Mustang's mind indirectly. Don't expect the author to spoon feed you about everything.
The fact that he asked Ed to give Envy back and didn't just burn Envy is proof enough he wasn't blinded by revenge. And yes, I'm telling that one of the reasons he wants to kill Envy is because of what (s)he did in Ishval and later. Where are the implications of this? It's simple. He tried to kill Lust, Scar, Gluttony and others because they were a threat. For the same reasons he wold kill Envy even if he didn't know he was the one that killed his friend. Revenge is just another reason to do it. Just because Arakawa didn't state it directly doesn't mean I'm wrong.

And you didn't answer my question. Are you saying that he doesn't care about people killed by Envy? About Envy being the one that caused a war? If you read FMA manga attentively you would know the answer.
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Old 2009-05-10, 10:17   Link #478
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The fact that he asked Ed to give Envy back and didn't just burn Envy is proof enough he wasn't blinded by revenge. And yes, I'm telling that one of the reasons he wants to kill Envy is because of what (s)he did in Ishval and later. Where are the implications of this? It's simple. He tried to kill Lust, Scar, Gluttony and others because they were a threat. For the same reasons he wold kill Envy even if he didn't know he was the one that killed his friend. Revenge is just another reason to do it. Just because Arakawa didn't state it directly doesn't mean I'm wrong.

And you didn't answer my question. Are you saying that he doesn't care about people killed by Envy? About Envy being the one that caused a war? If you read FMA manga attentively you would know the answer.
He asked but you are making it out like he asked Ed nicely or something, look at his eye and Ed's Roy is clearly blinded by revenge. The way he asked Ed is more in the line of ordering or commanding him to do so. Also the line that is boded is really ironic. And

Quote:
And yes, I'm telling that one of the reasons he wants to kill Envy is because of what (s)he did in Ishval and later. Where are the implications of this? It's simple. He tried to kill Lust, Scar, Gluttony and others because they were a threat. For the same reasons he wold kill Envy even if he didn't know he was the one that killed his friend.
This part just doesn't make sense, he wants to kill Envy because of what he did in Ishbal and Roy fighting Envy, Scars, and Scar imply this? That entire line doesn't make sense, he fought with them because they were threat that I do not disagree but that was because of that moment they were a threat to him and his men. So can you explain more how Roy's fight imply that he wants to kill Envy for what he did?
And Roy probably doesn't really care about people killed by Envy(asides from Hughes) but he probably detest Envy for starting the war(does Roy even know it was Envy? All I remember is Ed telling only Scar and nobody else)
I can't find any any line that anyone telling Roy the cause of the war was Envy.
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Old 2009-05-10, 18:40   Link #479
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This whole revenge argument is stupid. Great things can happen from bad scenarios or intentions just as hell is paved with good intentions. If a Jew whose family was killed by the Nazi's in the Holocaust wanted to kill every single Nazi in charge for revenge, and pulls it off, is that not a good thing? In this case Envy is way too much a pain to manage in upcoming battles and it would make the most logical sense to kill him off, who does it really doesn't matter. Mustang's hatred is targeted directly towards Envy otherwise he wouldn't have bothered asking Envy if he killed Hughes and just said that he was going to kill all Homunculi and make Father pay.
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Old 2009-05-10, 19:39   Link #480
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On Roy and Father, I could think of one reason why he shouldn't kill Envy. If he does burn Envy up, he'll probably think that Father would go down the same way, which we know is impossible. Aside from Hoho, I think no one who knows Renkinjitsu will beat him.
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