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Old 2009-05-12, 11:31   Link #301
DragoonKain3
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A bit late for this comment, but there's really nothing wrong with being labelled as a tsundere. On the contrary, Aoba being compared to other 'classic tsunderes' like Madoka of Kimagure Orange Road fame is nothing but a compliment. In fact, while it might not be all that evident so far in the anime, Aoba's reason for being so tsun and her gradual change to dere is probably the most well done transition I've seen in recent memory. That's why I say to people, just give it time.


As for this episode, I think they did Adachi one better in that they actually made Miki distuingishable from Nakanishi.

In anycase, I really love how Adachi puts subtle comparisons to be partly hidden by his more obvious comparisons. In this episode, we got the almost too obvious, 'who are you?' comments by their new slugger, where he doesn't remember anyone in the ream but Kou and three other guys. But underneath this, he deftly hides the other comparison, where Aoba says she doesn't feel anything when she saw the first stringer's ace pitch. But when Kou pitched? UTTERLY transfixed.

Which leads us to what I saying before... the very slow transition of Aoba to dere. And this episode highlights two major points, one being of Kou's 'confession', and two being her recognition of Kou's pitching talents. It ain't much, but its a start.
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Old 2009-05-12, 11:41   Link #302
musouka
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Quote:
Originally Posted by DragoonKain3 View Post
Which leads us to what I saying before... the very slow transition of Aoba to dere.
This right here is why labeling Aoba "tsundere" is borderline insulting. The point isn't for Aoba to "transition to dere", the point is that Aoba is a nuanced character who has more issues with Kou than "tsun tsun tsun dere dere dere" and to define her in those terms is sort of irritating. Aoba has more going on than "when will she start softening towards Kou" in the narrative.

If you want to talk about a tsundere character, talk about Azuma. :P
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Old 2009-05-12, 11:44   Link #303
BetoJR
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I'm with you there, DragoonKain3. Although I have no love lost for classical archetypes - I prefer to judge characters more on their individual traces, and not their "mold" - Aoba is one fine girl. And it just gets better with time.

I just wish this anime and the manga it's based on keep going for a long, long time.
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Old 2009-05-12, 16:19   Link #304
wayspooled
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The one thing I have always loved about Adachi Mitsuru's stuff is - he doesn't spoon-feed you everything. I don't mean he makes you work for it either, like deep focused concentration - that would be a real pain. You can just watch the anime and take what you see at face value and you may enjoy it, meanwhile grimacing about the less spectacular graphics style. But it's like he puts his whole being into "the telling of a real story", just like it might be in life with all it's subtlety and shades of grey. It's just that there is always something else there to "realize", in every story besides what you have seen and heard. You may eventually hear or see something that you then realize, you've been seeing all along. That's the moment that makes me love this guy's stuff. Does that make any sense to anyone? I don't know exactly how to say it.

Sometimes a main character's expressionless face is just that, expressionless, but sometimes it means something. And there is some difference you just learn to see I guess. Sometimes Adachi's blank looks mean a character is trying to "keep" a blank look on his face. Just like.. we do.. He's the only one that ever gives me that impression after seeing his artwork.
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Old 2009-05-12, 16:26   Link #305
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How much more spoon feeding do you need before you can call it being spoon fed? The whole anime has AobaxKou written all over it.
It's one of those I can't fall for this person cause he/she was a friend/family member of the person that I fell in loved with in the past.
Cause it's like betraying the memory of the person I was once happy with. Then the person who will replace the person that died will have some sort of inferiority complex like I will never be as good or even close to being as perfect as the person that once made you happy.
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Old 2009-05-12, 17:05   Link #306
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If that's really all you see here, bub, you're not paying enough attention...
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Old 2009-05-13, 02:48   Link #307
DragoonKain3
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Originally Posted by musouka View Post
This right here is why labeling Aoba "tsundere" is borderline insulting. The point isn't for Aoba to "transition to dere", the point is that Aoba is a nuanced character who has more issues with Kou than "tsun tsun tsun dere dere dere" and to define her in those terms is sort of irritating. Aoba has more going on than "when will she start softening towards Kou" in the narrative.
I really do wonder why people think that being labeled as tsundere is insulting. Just because Aoba is very well done as a character, with nuances that extend away from the tsundere archetype, still does NOT make her any less a tsundere. It's like how a lot of people are labelling Cross Game itself as a sports anime/manga. Sure, Cross Game is MUCH more than a sports anime/manga (or heck, its arguable that its main focus isn't even on the sport of baseball), but does that make the show any less of a sports anime/anime? No, since it does still spend a great deal of time showing baseball.

I mean, as a manga reader, watching the Aoba of the show and comparing her to the Aoba of the manga (which is currently set about 2/3 years later than the latest episode) is like comparing night and day in terms of how she treats Kou. And the best part about it? I didn't even notice the gradual change until the anime aired. Now THAT is how you do a classical tsundere.



Quote:
Originally Posted by FuzzyWuzzy
The whole anime has AobaxKou written all over it.
You really think so? As much as I LOVE that pairing (I don't use my title for nothing), its really quite vague on how Adachi is going with the pairings.

I mean...

Spoiler for very very VERY slight manga spoilers:


So yeah, it's far from decided. Plus with Adachi also having written H2, one can never be too sure of the final pairings until the fat lady does sing.

As for how you say its going to unfold with the conflict of the inferiority complex you mentioned... well, let's just say it's not exactly that. You'd know what I mean once a certain character is introduced...
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Old 2009-05-13, 03:10   Link #308
Westlo
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Originally Posted by DragoonKain3 View Post
A bit late for this comment, but there's really nothing wrong with being labelled as a tsundere. On the contrary, Aoba being compared to other 'classic tsunderes' like Madoka of Kimagure Orange Road fame is nothing but a compliment.
Aoba's nothing like Madoka period. Aoba's not putting up a front (she genuinely disliked Kou from the start) or being nice to Kou when they are by themselves or not trying to get involved because of Hikaru (or her case Wakaba's memory).

Quote:
I mean, as a manga reader, watching the Aoba of the show and comparing her to the Aoba of the manga (which is currently set about 2/3 years later than the latest episode) is like comparing night and day in terms of how she treats Kou. And the best part about it? I didn't even notice the gradual change until the anime aired. Now THAT is how you do a classical tsundere.
How can you not notice the change in attitude... it's one of the good aspects of their relationship.... how this change came about.

Quote:
Originally Posted by DragoonKain3 View Post
You really think so? As much as I LOVE that pairing (I don't use my title for nothing), its really quite vague on how Adachi is going with the pairings.

I mean...

Spoiler for very very VERY slight manga spoilers:


So yeah, it's far from decided. Plus with Adachi also having written H2, one can never be too sure of the final pairings until the fat lady does sing.
Oh come on it's very clear cut.. just not for the reasons Fuzzy Wuzzy mentioned. For your spoiler one of the LI became a complete joke after his introduction... and the main one... well that character himself already pointed out his path when he was talking about the catcher and his situation.
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Old 2009-05-13, 04:23   Link #309
BetoJR
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People sure of romantic pairings in any of Adachi's works do tend to have a few upsets from time to time... Is all I have to say.

I, for one, am still not over Slow Step's anime ending. That one I would have never guessed... not bad, mind you, just unexpected as all hell.

That said, I can't see this ending with anything other than Koh and Aoba getting together. BUT I could be wrong, as I've been before.
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Old 2009-05-13, 06:03   Link #310
poko-kun
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Originally Posted by FuzzyWuzzy View Post
How much more spoon feeding do you need before you can call it being spoon fed? The whole anime has AobaxKou written all over it.
Guess you've never read H2 and Slow step before
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Old 2009-05-13, 06:21   Link #311
BetoJR
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Oh, c'mon, H2 was always about what it ultimately became.

Spoiler for H2 general happenings:

That's to say I wasn't overly "traumatized" like some people seemed to have been, by it.

In any event, I don't see this one ending like that. But I didn't see Slow Step's ending as well, so... take it as you will.
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Old 2009-05-13, 10:28   Link #312
musouka
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Quote:
Originally Posted by DragoonKain3 View Post
I really do wonder why people think that being labeled as tsundere is insulting. Just because Aoba is very well done as a character, with nuances that extend away from the tsundere archetype, still does NOT make her any less a tsundere.
Why is it insulting? I already explained exactly why it was insulting. It leads to generalizations about how her purpose in the series isn't to have her own storyline, but to eventually "become dere towards Kou". It makes her personality and storyline all about Kou and how she reacts to him, instead of about her trying to work through something very painful. Can't you see the difference in how people talk about Kou and Aoba? No one pretends that Kou's only major role in the series is connected to eventually falling in love with Aoba, so the fact that people can't see why it's borderline insulting to define the other main character that way sort of makes me wonder.
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Old 2009-05-13, 12:26   Link #313
Kaoru Chujo
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I understand why people are upset at Aoba being labelled a tsundere. It associates her with shallow characters and moe anime. But I'm afraid I agree with DragoonKain that that doesn't make it untrue. It's just that that's not all she is.

In fact, I think she could turn out to be the best tsundere ever. Her tsuntsun hatred of Kou is so intense, natural and real. Not faked or shallow, as it often seems to be in normal tsundere. And she is clearly going to soften toward him and become some form of dere, although that is still far in the future. She is now just beginning to see his uprightness, his honest love of her sister, and his amazing baseball skill.

I mean, you can call her "tsundere" or just draw attention to the fact that one aspect of this plot appears to be the traditional "I hate him I hate him....I love him" that is the basis of a whole class of shoujo manga.

This show has the strands of his pitching, her pitching, her coming to like him and his coming to like her, underlain by both their relationships with her dead sister. Covers all the bases, lol.
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Old 2009-05-13, 12:33   Link #314
golthin
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Originally Posted by Kaoru Chujo View Post
I understand why people are upset at Aoba being labelled a tsundere. It associates her with shallow characters and moe anime. But I'm afraid I agree with DragoonKain that that doesn't make it untrue. It's just that that's not all she is.

In fact, I think she could turn out to be the best tsundere ever. Her tsuntsun hatred of Kou is so intense, natural and real. Not faked or shallow, as it often seems to be in normal tsundere. And she is clearly going to soften toward him and become some form of dere, although that is still far in the future. She is now just beginning to see his uprightness, his honest love of her sister, and his amazing baseball skill.

I mean, you can call her "tsundere" or just draw attention to the fact that one aspect of this plot appears to be the traditional "I hate him I hate him....I love him" that is the basis of a whole class of shoujo manga.

This show has the strands of his pitching, her pitching, her coming to like him and his coming to like her, underlain by both their relationships with her dead sister. Covers all the bases, lol.
Aoba has to hate Koh in her mind. She can't let herself betray Wakaba , so the only way she can deal with it is by hating Koh. Aoba's hate for Koh is artificial and that is why it will fail. she doesn't have a real reason to hate him, on the contrary, she is warming up to him more and more. the last ingredient to break down Aoba's wall is for Koh to throw the 160 Km/h fast ball.
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Old 2009-05-13, 12:33   Link #315
Kirarakim
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Originally Posted by BetoJR View Post
People sure of romantic pairings in any of Adachi's works do tend to have a few upsets from time to time... Is all I have to say.

I admit I already though Koh and Aoba will be the ones who will get together from what I've seen in the anime so far. But my prejudice are based on other anime/manga series not familiarity with Adachi's work. So I will keep it in mind that he can be a bit unpredictable when it comes to the final couples. At least it is good to be warned beforehand so I don't get my hopes up for a pairing. And besides I do like both Koh and Aoba so far for their individual merits regardless if they get together or not. At least I hope they will be good friends in the end.

As for Aoba being a tsundere I don't know. I do think labels are thrown around too often but I think in this case when people say it they are not using it in a negative sense. So it all depends on how you use that label. Is Aoba's attitude like a tsundere, well possibly. But she is clearly not written that way as a form of fanservice.
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Old 2009-05-13, 12:36   Link #316
BetoJR
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Originally Posted by golthin View Post
the last ingredient to break down Aoba's wall is for Koh to throw the 160 Km/h fast ball.
"But you still can't have him". Remember that?
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Old 2009-05-13, 12:39   Link #317
golthin
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"But you still can't have him". Remember that?
that is why Aoba has to hate him. Really, if Wakaba had known how those words would have caused all these problems, she would never had said them. It is kind of silly because those words only applied when Wakaba was around. that is how much aoba loved her sister.
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Old 2009-05-13, 13:11   Link #318
musouka
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Originally Posted by Kaoru Chujo View Post
I understand why people are upset at Aoba being labelled a tsundere. It associates her with shallow characters and moe anime. But I'm afraid I agree with DragoonKain that that doesn't make it untrue. It's just that that's not all she is.
That goes into more of a meta idea of what "tsundere" are. You can describe some aspects of her behavior as tsundere in nature, but the label is still incorrect because she doesn't fit the tsundere qualification of having her behavior revolve around her romantic feelings for the guy. Aoba is genuinely conflicted about Kou, in more than just a romantic sense. She's conflicted about a lot of things, like baseball and moving on from the death of her sister.

In this case, "tsundere" flattens her. It ignores the other aspects of her personality in favor of defining her by her relationship with Kou. If you were using "tsundere" as an adjective ("Aoba is tsundere towards Kou") as opposed to a simple noun ("Aoba is a tsundere"), that would be one thing, but it's not being used that way. Most of what people have to say about her is "what a tsundere!" or "wait until she gets all dere with Kou", which is Not. The. Point.
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Old 2009-05-13, 13:25   Link #319
BetoJR
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Quote:
Originally Posted by golthin View Post
that is why Aoba has to hate him. Really, if Wakaba had known how those words would have caused all these problems, she would never had said them. It is kind of silly because those words only applied when Wakaba was around. that is how much aoba loved her sister.
But you have to remember she already demonstrated a strong dislike for him, even before Wakaba ever uttered such words. Jealousy of her sister - or of him - even before such a flat statement. There's much more going on, actually - and it's going to be a beauty when it all unravels.
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Old 2009-05-13, 22:29   Link #320
Kaoru Chujo
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But you have to remember she already demonstrated a strong dislike for him, even before Wakaba ever uttered such words. Jealousy of her sister - or of him - even before such a flat statement. There's much more going on, actually - and it's going to be a beauty when it all unravels.
I look forward to having my expectations upset. These are pretty good characters now. I'm glad to hear they will get even better.

Maybe I am just trying to rehabilitate the term "tsundere," lol. I definitely understand where musouka is coming from, and I sympathize. I'll try to use the term adjectivally, since I am certainly not thinking of Aoba as just tsundere and nothing else. And maybe she will never become dere, anyway. We'll see.
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