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Old 2009-05-15, 07:56   Link #181
yezhanquan
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Well, from my memory, Schneizel was using the threat of annihilation to force peace. I don't know about you, but such power cannot maintain peace for long. Sooner or later, this power would corrupt anyone who wields it.
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Old 2009-05-15, 08:18   Link #182
Levy
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Originally Posted by Orga777 View Post
This is always what interests me though, if that whole Euphie SAZ massacre never happened, and Zero worked with her on reaching out as well as keep his on guard in case Britannia goes against their words, I always what would have happened if the three of them, Lelouch, Euphie, and Schneizel (who approved of the SAZ and even seemed to point towards less restrictions on the Japanese) all worked together to change things...
That would be a very interesting AU, and I wonder if this would serve to change Britannia from the inside. If Euphie's plan would have succeded, then her, Lelouch and Suzaku could have worked together to make it last, work, and bring peace to Japan.
Schneizel might have used this politicall success to mine his father's egemony on Britannian Empire, demonstrating that his and his sister diplomacy had been more effective that military force in stopping the uprising of terrorism in the Areas. It would not have been easy to do that, but I think that him and Euphie together could bring Cornelia (and surely Odysseus too, since he was willing to be 'used' by Schneizel in the arraged marriage with Tianzi to seal the pact with Eunuchus) on their side.
So the conflict would have shifted from Britannia VS BlackKnights/UNF to Charles'Britannia VS Schneizel-EuphieBritannia, supported by Lelouch and the BlackKnights/UNF.
Quite a different story from the Code Geass we know, but interesting as well.


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I think that Euphie incident was the last nail in Schneizel's way of thinking to make him go all "No hope for humans, they may have to be forced to learn..." with his FLEIAs and Floating Doom Fortress.... Just a thought on my part.
Mh..possible. We got little to no focus on Schneizel feelings and my grasp on his characters is lacking at least, but if anything the incident with Euphie and how his father handled Lelouch there surely persuaded Schneizel that his father was no longer fitting to be a king, I guess... : /
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Old 2009-05-15, 11:38   Link #183
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Originally Posted by talos wing View Post
sheesh spent so much time catching up, you know this thread was pretty interesting a few pages back but now its gotten degraded into seeing whose the optimistic and whose the bitter one ad nuasea. - -;

the world is ill in hate due to a brain tumor. the emperor wants to cure it by utilizing a surgery that makes it braindead though its cured as a result. schneizel doesnt remove the tumor but he gives pink-color circular tablets that attacks some of the symptoms. using the tablets makes world feel under the weather at first.and lelouch is what, in comarpison? a doctor in a sting ray hat who want to become the tumor then spread to other parts of the body then die and that makes the body get natural immunity. lol. dr. sting ray hat gives you a bottle of coke zero too, appanrelt if you drink coke zero once in the while, it will remind your body of its natural immunity. lol. so what will you pick? id pick the hat guy just 'cause he looks funny here but really if you were in a situation like this in real life you would pick the practical option.but you know, here the weirdo is kinda the hero so you have a different perspective, plus its anime lol who cares

so pointless to argue. i read the writer talk about the ending. he said damcoles would have worked if schniezel had succeded. even said you could think of it like a BAD END!!! that lelouch was the victor. really goes to show how the writer himself confeses he influenced the viewers to side with total bull to fix the world lol. and here we got fanbois with gleam of lelouch in their eyes whe nfaced with realism lol good job mr. writer

that crap earlier about the never ending cycle whatever, you guys are really odd about this permenance thing. lelouchs plan ride on the back of humanity to do the right thing and be inlfuenced, but the problem to begin with is humanity. so look, all you people who go boo-hoo not such thing as permanence in the world but then say yeah go lelouch you guys all look really dumb. in order for lelouchs to work, it means he had to permanently changed something about humanity so they dont fall back to that option. you guys say no such thing as permanent but then you go on supporting the idea of zero becoming a permanently part of history that ppl would look up to and whose gonna permenantly instill hope to people. you're all full of logic holes.
I don't mind if you disagree, but be polite about it.

Anyways, I think people would eventually rebel out of spite if left to Schneizel's plan. You know the whole fear leads to anger spiel from Yoda.

Besides, there's a reason people prefer a democracy to an authoritarian government.
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Old 2009-05-15, 12:14   Link #184
Orga777
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Originally Posted by yezhanquan View Post
Well, from my memory, Schneizel was using the threat of annihilation to force peace. I don't know about you, but such power cannot maintain peace for long. Sooner or later, this power would corrupt anyone who wields it.
One thing though... Schneizel doesn't seem to be one to be corruptable. He is set in his beliefs and I don't see him deviating from them if he won. He would just be happy that peace was finally obtained. Even if it is totally fake.
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Old 2009-05-15, 12:48   Link #185
Eleonore Magilinon
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Originally Posted by Eleonore Magilinon View Post
Other proof I can think of is that if he portraited his "peace" from the beginning as something like Damocles keeping everyone in terror, he could very much use the Britannia's army for the same purpose (it was sufficient) and certainly wouldn't waste time on things like peace treaty with EU, and he somehow did.
So I think he, as many others, changed through R2.
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Originally Posted by Schneizel View Post
No, he didn't change, because he's the present and the status quo. He was also the only "normal" one of the 3 big guys, he had no Geass or magical powers with him.

And he's the present in more ways than one, because he reflects our present too, or rather the whole idea behind Damocles does. We live in the aftermath of the atom bomb, countries keep each other in check through fear of nukes, Damocles is more or less "Hi here's the Cold War". Krimzon went on about how controlling people through fear doesn't work, Eleonore is trying to somehow ignore counting Damocles, yet the truth is that controlling people through fear of getting blown up is very much a reality and our own world is to show for that.
Ok, I'm not saying he didn't came to this way of thinking in the end when he did use Damocles and stuff.
But I would like an explanation of his (in my opinion) contradicting behavior I've described, in the beginning and in the end R2. I see it as a character development, you just say he doesn't change at all because he's the present.


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Originally Posted by Levy View Post
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Originally Posted by Orga777 View Post
This is always what interests me though, if that whole Euphie SAZ massacre never happened, and Zero worked with her on reaching out as well as keep his on guard in case Britannia goes against their words, I always what would have happened if the three of them, Lelouch, Euphie, and Schneizel (who approved of the SAZ and even seemed to point towards less restrictions on the Japanese) all worked together to change things...
That would be a very interesting AU, and I wonder if this would serve to change Britannia from the inside. If Euphie's plan would have succeded, then her, Lelouch and Suzaku could have worked together to make it last, work, and bring peace to Japan.
Schneizel might have used this politicall success to mine his father's egemony on Britannian Empire, demonstrating that his and his sister diplomacy had been more effective that military force in stopping the uprising of terrorism in the Areas. It would not have been easy to do that, but I think that him and Euphie together could bring Cornelia (and surely Odysseus too, since he was willing to be 'used' by Schneizel in the arraged marriage with Tianzi to seal the pact with Eunuchus) on their side.
So the conflict would have shifted from Britannia VS BlackKnights/UNF to Charles'Britannia VS Schneizel-EuphieBritannia, supported by Lelouch and the BlackKnights/UNF.
Quite a different story from the Code Geass we know, but interesting as well.
The idea it my favorite theme to think about when it comes to Code Geass, but I do not share your faith in Schneizel's good intentions the way it happened. I want to think positively, but I doubt there was anything more in his approval of Euphie's plan than just using the possibility to make BK loose their support in Area 11. I wouldn't be surprised if he was just using her and ended her little plan when it would be nessesary. Although he might have viewed it as not a completely bad idea, but I doubt he would have shown active support. Rather Cornelia than him, really. She would end up supporting anything her sister started, she loved her too much (I do like Cornelia and consider her one of the sane people there). Plus royal family would never forgive Zero for killing Clovis (and Lelouch wouldn't be revealing is personality any time soon, as on of the rebel leaders said, it would have been a really stupid thing to do).

And the idea itself, it's almost impossible to make it work, SAZ doesn't have anough power to back itself up if Britannia changes her mind (even if it's against Euphie's will)... And that makes it all more interesting to see, after all, Zero is the man of miracles, as the person behind the mask is. And him working with Suzaku would make it perfect strategist working with the perfect pilot (and knowing that two, it's a miracle in itself, I admire Euphie for almost accomplishing that), plus they would probably have both Lloyd (now that's somebody who would do it for the sake of seeing how it turns out, also Suzaku is a valuable pilot for Lancelot) and Rakshata on their side, and Nina too in the end, Euphie is her idol. That could help turning the tables, no bragging.
And after all, Euphie's idea is power in itself. People in general do not like war, nor things like tyranny. And people like to hope (that was noted even by Schneizel) and to dream. Euphie was a living embodiment of the dream.
And it's not like all the Britannians liked their own country's policy. What we see are nobles, limited group of people, or ones like Ashford Academy's students, do you think their parents are just some commoners? They do not wish for things to change, since they have the power the way it is. But there's hell lot of things to be done if people feel some alretnative...

Oh, maybe I'll write my version of this one day...
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Old 2009-05-15, 13:02   Link #186
azul120
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Originally Posted by Eleonore Magilinon View Post
The idea it my favorite theme to think about when it comes to Code Geass, but I do not share your faith in Schneizel's good intentions the way it happened. I want to think positively, but I doubt there was anything more in his approval of Euphie's plan than just using the possibility to make BK loose their support in Area 11. I wouldn't be surprised if he was just using her and ended her little plan when it would be nessesary. Although he might have viewed it as not a completely bad idea, but I doubt he would have shown active support. Rather Cornelia than him, really. She would end up supporting anything her sister started, she loved her too much (I do like Cornelia and consider her one of the sane people there). Plus royal family would never forgive Zero for killing Clovis (and Lelouch wouldn't be revealing is personality any time soon, as on of the rebel leaders said, it would have been a really stupid thing to do).
At the time though, Cornelia was all too willing a supporter of Britannia's Social Darwinist policy, even to the point she snapped at Euphie when the latter made Suzaku her personal knight.
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Old 2009-05-15, 13:28   Link #187
Orga777
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At the time though, Cornelia was all too willing a supporter of Britannia's Social Darwinist policy, even to the point she snapped at Euphie when the latter made Suzaku her personal knight.
Yeah, I have to agree with you on that. Cornelia was more of a Purist.

Schneizel was a lot more leinient on that stuff too actually. He approved of Suzaku's Knightship, AND dropped all those charges that were placed on Suzaku for not getting himself killed. So I stick with my view from above since Schneizel has little development, I can make the assumptions by looking at all Schneizel's reactions and quirks from the series and taking them apart. XD
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Old 2009-05-15, 13:38   Link #188
Eleonore Magilinon
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At the time though, Cornelia was all too willing a supporter of Britannia's Social Darwinist policy, even to the point she snapped at Euphie when the latter made Suzaku her personal knight.
Of course she did. And while being totally angry at her for what she's been doing, still sent her representative to SAZ. Look at her conversation with Shniezel... He saw through her and knew what he was implying while pointing out the fact. She didn't want to admit it, and she would show how angry she is to Euphie on every suitable occasion, but she would be willing to use any possibility to save her while she was caught in hostage's affair, and she would cast away everything including her status and ideas just to clear her name. She wouldn't go against her when she realize Euphie is serious, maybe for the first time in her life. She won't stand in her way, and in the end I think she would start to aid her, maybe not openly, but with "little" things from the shadows. But if Britannia went against SAZ Euphie wouldn't back down, and if they threaten Euphie's life...
Cornelia's sister complex certainly rivals that of Lelouch.

In other words, I'm saying she would support the idea. I seriously doubt that, better to say, I'm almost sure she would not. She would, however, support Euphie. The way Lelouch casted everything away while Black Rebellion because Nanally was in danger.
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Old 2009-05-15, 13:39   Link #189
azul120
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True.

One thing that came to mind regarding him and his siblings was that as much as Schneizel loved them, he always seemed to hold his personal agenda above them, which was why he had no qualms in the end with the idea of killing Lelouch.

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Originally Posted by Eleonore Magilinon
Of course she did. And while being totally angry at her for what she's been doing, still sent her representative to SAZ. Look at her conversation with Shniezel... He saw through her and knew what he was implying while pointing out the fact. She didn't want to admit it, and she would show how angry she is to Euphie on every suitable occasion, but she would be willing to use any possibility to save her while she was caught in hostage's affair, and she would cast away everything including her status and ideas just to clear her name. She wouldn't go against her when she realize Euphie is serious, maybe for the first time in her life. She won't stand in her way, and in the end I think she would start to aid her, maybe not openly, but with "little" things from the shadows. But if Britannia went against SAZ Euphie wouldn't back down, and if they threaten Euphie's life...
Cornelia's sister complex certainly rivals that of Lelouch.
While that was true, Cornelia was still adamant about her purist ideas, so much so that she would do anything to uphold them. If it weren't for Euphie's presence in the hotel during the hijacking, Cornelia would have had no interest in the hostage situation whatsoever, and apparently would have had no qualms sacrificing those hostages to deal with the JLF members in there. I brought up the earlier example of her snapping at Euphie's extreme opposite example in order to demonstrate how strongly she felt things should be.
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Old 2009-05-15, 13:43   Link #190
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True.

One thing that came to mind regarding him and his siblings was that as much as Schneizel loved them, he always seemed to hold his personal agenda above them, which was why he had no qualms in the end with the idea of killing Lelouch.
I can see what you mean, but Schneizel saw Lelouch as totally lost cause and needed to be destroyed. He saw Lelouch as corrupt and of course wrong. Which is why he was willing to end it all with him then and there.
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Old 2009-05-15, 13:49   Link #191
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Schneizel was a lot more leinient on that stuff too actually. He approved of Suzaku's Knightship, AND dropped all those charges that were placed on Suzaku for not getting himself killed. So I stick with my view from above since Schneizel has little development, I can make the assumptions by looking at all Schneizel's reactions and quirks from the series and taking them apart. XD
As much as I believe in Shniezel, I doubt he had any "general good" intentions while helping Suzaku. First I assume he might have caught a wind of something fishy going on with Suzaku, I think he knew he was a good loyal piece to play after taking a look at him and his actions. And what he did was contradicting his thoughts.
Plus, one good and probably even more loyal in the future piece and exeptional pilot was more useful than one more eleven in jail. And he didn't want to upset Euphie if it wasn't nessesary.

And I'm with you about trying to recreate more of Shniezel's personality than just his idea about FLEIA and Damocles in the end. I wonder if you think he changed during R2 or am I the only one thinking that...
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Old 2009-05-15, 13:50   Link #192
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However, Schneizel used people like pedins too, about that side, he was similar to Lelouch.

He knew Lelouch was zero and he used Nunnally and Suzaku on purpose to degenerate all the situation and Lelouch made impressive bullshits, bullshits used by schneizel to complete his plan.

About Nina, she wasn't able to finish her research, then Schneizel obliged her to accompany him on purpose to Odysseus marriage party because he knew Zero was there, then, a good...stimulation for Nina.
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Old 2009-05-15, 13:50   Link #193
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True.

One thing that came to mind regarding him and his siblings was that as much as Schneizel loved them, he always seemed to hold his personal agenda above them, which was why he had no qualms in the end with the idea of killing Lelouch.
Yep.
Schneizel loved his siblings, but he had no "attachment" towards them. So I guess some people wouldn't really call it love... I disagree, though.

And almost all the members of the royal family we got to see have a severe case of "sibling fixation" - be it Clovis, Cornelia or V.V.
I think it's interesting how each case is still quite a bit different.
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Old 2009-05-15, 13:53   Link #194
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I can see what you mean, but Schneizel saw Lelouch as totally lost cause and needed to be destroyed. He saw Lelouch as corrupt and of course wrong. Which is why he was willing to end it all with him then and there.
No. Schneizel saw Lelouch as a direct threat to his own idea of peace. As Bonzo mentioned, he used his relationships with Nunnally and Suzaku to undermine him in the two episodes leading up to the Black Knight betrayal he had set up.
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Old 2009-05-15, 13:55   Link #195
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However, Schneizel used people like pedins too, about that side, he was similar to Lelouch.
Indeed. I actually pointed that out early in the topic.

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Originally Posted by Eleonore Magilinon
As much as I believe in Shniezel, I doubt he had any "general good" intentions while helping Suzaku. First I assume he might have caught a wind of something fishy going on with Suzaku, I think he knew he was a good loyal piece to play after taking a look at him and his actions. And what he did was contradicting his thoughts.
Plus, one good and probably even more loyal in the future piece and exeptional pilot was more useful than one more eleven in jail. And he didn't want to upset Euphie if it wasn't nessesary.
Now I can understand this opinion well, and it is believable, but for some reason, I don't seem to buy into it fully. Could that have been a big reason for it? Sure, and he probably took that into consideration when he made his decision, but I still see it as being a little more than that. He isn't overtly cruel for no reason after all.

Quote:
And I'm with you about trying to recreate more of Shniezel's personality than just his idea about FLEIA and Damocles in the end. I wonder if you think he changed during R2 or am I the only one thinking that...
Oh I agree that he changed from S1 to R2. I personally think that whole Euphie thing was a big cause. (His shocked face is a good point towards that... since when is Schneizel EVER shocked?) That whole incident, and then the mess with the Black Rebellion and the death of his sister could have just made him give up on hope. Lelouch almost did that too actually, but Kallen brought him back to earth (before he used Refrain) Schneizel really didn't have the luck there or the same experiences with people Lelouch had the fortune of having.
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Old 2009-05-15, 13:59   Link #196
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However, Schneizel used people like pedins too, about that side, he was similar to Lelouch.

He knew Lelouch was zero and he used Nunnally and Suzaku on purpose to degenerate all the situation and Lelouch made impressive bullshits, bullshits used by schneizel to complete his plan.

About Nina, she wasn't able to finish her research, then Schneizel obliged her to accompany him on purpose to Odysseus marriage party because he knew Zero was there, then, a good...stimulation for Nina.
Yep, I assume from his action that he was really great at seeing people's personalities and using them according to that, and it also explainspartly his "charisma", he knew the way to act in every case. That does make his similar to Lelouch, although he failed to judge that one in the end. As all the other characters and most of the viewers))))


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Yep.
Schneizel loved his siblings, but he had no "attachment" towards them. So I guess some people wouldn't really call it love... I disagree, though.

And almost all the members of the royal family we got to see have a severe case of "sibling fixation" - be it Clovis, Cornelia or V.V.
I think it's interesting how each case is still quite a bit different.

Em, I do understand your love for Clovis, but who exactly was he "fixed" on?
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Old 2009-05-15, 14:00   Link #197
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Em, I do understand your love for Clovis, but who exactly was he "fixed" on?
Lelouch. He became governor of Aera 11 because he saw it as a puzzle left by Lelouch.
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Old 2009-05-15, 14:01   Link #198
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Em, I do understand your love for Clovis, but who exactly was he "fixed" on?
Lelouch, of course. xD

Edit: Ah... too slow.
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Old 2009-05-15, 14:03   Link #199
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Lelouch, of course. xD

Edit: Ah... too slow.
lol. Sorry about that. XD
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Old 2009-05-15, 14:08   Link #200
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Schneizel always seemed like a pretty cynical person willing to do anything for his idea of peace though.
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