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Old 2009-05-13, 22:43   Link #321
golthin
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Kaoru Chujo View Post
I look forward to having my expectations upset. These are pretty good characters now. I'm glad to hear they will get even better.

Maybe I am just trying to rehabilitate the term "tsundere," lol. I definitely understand where musouka is coming from, and I sympathize. I'll try to use the term adjectivally, since I am certainly not thinking of Aoba as just tsundere and nothing else. And maybe she will never become dere, anyway. We'll see.
Aoba is not your typical tsundere, usually tsundere show the dere quality in front of the person they hate-like. Aoba never shows her dere side in front of koh, she has not yet quite in the anime, it took 5 episodes for us too see her show any good will toward koh and not in front of him. (when she looked at him as they parted ways, a very small gesture of care which is big for Aoba, also when she woke up him up in the train)
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Old 2009-05-15, 06:15   Link #322
Westlo
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Quote:
Originally Posted by golthin View Post
Aoba has to hate Koh in her mind. She can't let herself betray Wakaba , so the only way she can deal with it is by hating Koh.
What are you on about? One scene later in the manga makes it bloody obvious (clearly not enough though ) why she disliked Kou from the start even though it was obvious already. That's not all their is too it but it has nothing to do with betraying Wakaba.

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Originally Posted by golthin View Post
Aoba is not your typical tsundere
But if you have to change the definition to fit her in than why call her a tsundere in the first place? Sure Aoba does have her tsundere type moments throughout the manga... choc. but.. if you had to single out scenes like that to prove a case than you pretty much call anybody a tsundere than
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Old 2009-05-15, 06:53   Link #323
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Oh, c'mon, Westlo... There is a big deal going on with her not wanting to betray Waka in her mind, yes. The whole 160km/h ball and the "But you still can't have him" comment do play big parts in the jumble of her feelings. It's not only the other thing, either.
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Old 2009-05-15, 08:41   Link #324
golthin
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Originally Posted by Westlo View Post
What are you on about? One scene later in the manga makes it bloody obvious (clearly not enough though ) why she disliked Kou from the start even though it was obvious already. That's not all their is too it but it has nothing to do with betraying Wakaba.



But if you have to change the definition to fit her in than why call her a tsundere in the first place? Sure Aoba does have her tsundere type moments throughout the manga... choc. but.. if you had to single out scenes like that to prove a case than you pretty much call anybody a tsundere than
because there is not a term for her. Tsundere just mean that the person starts with unexplicable hate but eventually the person starts to warm up. That is what we see with Aoba. She is not the typical one because she takes longer than normal to warm up. Also, Aoba has two reasons to hate/dislike Koh.
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Old 2009-05-15, 17:14   Link #325
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Sure we have a term for her, she's called "Aoba". And she has no "unexplicable hate", go watch the show properly. This tsundere label only serves to dumb her down to a two-dimensional personality, which she doesn't have. Categorizing every character into simplistic moe archetypes is not favorable to them or to the discussion; there's more to a lot of them than that. Man, just re-read musouka's posts on the previous page.
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Old 2009-05-15, 17:31   Link #326
golthin
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Originally Posted by Scab View Post
Sure we have a term for her, she's called "Aoba". And she has no "unexplicable hate", go watch the show properly. This tsundere label only serves to dumb her down to a two-dimensional personality, which she doesn't have. Categorizing every character into simplistic moe archetypes is not favorable to them or to the discussion; there's more to a lot of them than that. Man, just re-read musouka's posts on the previous page.
I guess i kind messed up the previous post. I meant to say that aoba hate for Koh has a reason. that is why she is not the typical tsundere. She has two reasons to hate Koh. She was jealous of his relationship with Wakaba and She has to keep her distance from him because Koh belongs to Wakaba and anything else will mean a betrayal to wakaba's memory. right now there is not any signs that Wakaba is tsundere, but as the show goes on we will see very small changes in her. the first sign already happened in episode 5.

edit:
I can understand people hatred for lebeling Aoba Tsundere, by the way most of them are used in anime.
still is the only way to lebel her, even the Tomboy lebel which also apply to her is kind of insulting, because she is not tomboy in my eyes. She is just a cute girl that likes sports.
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Old 2009-05-15, 17:54   Link #327
monir
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Let's exclude the term, "tsundere" all together when describing Aoba's personality. Tsunderes' highlighted in stereotypical anime are nothing more than zombies instilled with two sets of personalities that are necessary to worship the very ground the protagonist walks on in a slightly different manner. While I get what Golthin is tyring to point out, Aoba's complexity is far more enriching and endearing, so it is difficult to enclose her personality in a simple bracket like tsundere.

P.S. Since Scap is checking up on the spelling, I ran a spell check before submitting the post.
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Old 2009-05-15, 17:58   Link #328
stpehen
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jesus christ, why does anybody care about this idiotic topic
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Old 2009-05-15, 18:00   Link #329
BetoJR
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And why should we care about what you think, stpehen? Sheesh... Do mind your manners a bit more, sir.

As for Aoba being a tsundere or not... does it really matter? Labels are nice for simplifying things, but they are also crutches some people use too lightly. Let's try to make the best without those, for now, shall we?
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Old 2009-05-15, 18:04   Link #330
golthin
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Originally Posted by stpehen View Post
jesus christ, why does anybody care about this idiotic topic
because everyone loves Aoba, she is such an incredible character, one that is really hard to lebel.
Adachi's work are always very similar, what he changes is his characters.
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Old 2009-05-15, 18:09   Link #331
Guardian Enzo
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I certainly don't love her - yet. She's my least favorite character so far, but I'm prepared to be won over since the series in general is most enjoyable.
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Old 2009-05-15, 20:38   Link #332
Sorrow-K
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The problem with the tsundere debate is that it's purely definitional. As is the case with a lot of loan words, the definition is always evolving to keep up with the developing archetype. No doubt tsundere-ism has been watered down, and it's no surprise people are leery about using a word that links a rich and complex character like Aoba to K-On's Mio, who is a simply awful character as far as depth is concerned. So I don't think the question is so much whether or not Aoba is tsundere (and personally I think she is, but I think most anime-related loan words need pretty loose definitions by their nature and how they're used), but "what is a tsundere".
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Old 2009-05-15, 21:02   Link #333
golthin
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Originally Posted by Sorrow-K View Post
The problem with the tsundere debate is that it's purely definitional. As is the case with a lot of loan words, the definition is always evolving to keep up with the developing archetype. No doubt tsundere-ism has been watered down, and it's no surprise people are leery about using a word that links a rich and complex character like Aoba to K-On's Mio, who is a simply awful character as far as depth is concerned. So I don't think the question is so much whether or not Aoba is tsundere (and personally I think she is, but I think most anime-related loan words need pretty loose definitions by their nature and how they're used), but "what is a tsundere".
well, the original tsundere was nothing like what you see in anime. The best place to see what a tsundere is, it will be in a maid cafe where they have tsundere maids. Those are nothing like what we see in anime (the fetish of being abused is just a mild form of Masochism). I will say Aoba has more Tsun than Dere. We really need to create a new term for her. that also makes us think that Koh has developed a mild taste of Sadism as he seems to enjoy the abuse he receives from Aoba(He does keep coming back for more all the time).
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Old 2009-05-15, 23:04   Link #334
cheesie
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The tsundere label is strictly a fandom definition in the first place, a label created by the fans to describe a particular set of stereotypes, just as the fans are responsible for evolving the meaning to its current nature. With that said, when fans apply this label to characters like Louise, Shana, Taiga and many others, they are doing so because there's a certain pattern they recognize. These are pretty much 'people with conceited, spiky, combative personalities that suddenly becomes modest and loving when triggered by some sort of cause' (originally I wouldn't touch Wiki, but ironically, there is no better reference to use right now). When the fans reach a consensus with this description in mind, this is how the standards of this label are made clear.

When you use the 'tsundere' fan-label with Aoba, it strongly implies that she belongs to this group of girls, who are constantly used as shining examples of the label. (Ones who pretty much define the term.) I agree with the people who said the label was misused. No matter what tsundere types there are, what all of them seem to have in common is the demand of focus on their so-called tsundere personalities as the deciding factor that largely defines their relationships, and in turn, places considerably less emphasis on the circumstances around them - when it's actually the opposite for Aoba. Her personality had never dictated her and Kou's relationship; the situation does.

No matter how much Aoba is praised as a well-done/exceptional tsundere, if she doesn't meet the 'requirements', or rather, conflicts with it, then it's still confining the wrong character to the standards of that label, really.

Quote:
Originally Posted by golthin
We really need to create a new term for her.
Why come up with new stereotypes for her? As Scab said, "Aoba" is fine.

Edit:
Quote:
Because mine is the voice of reason, and a lot of brain cells are being wasted on discussion that is of absolutely non-existent importance or relevance.
Not really, though it doesn't serve much to the main topic at hand, it's still an interesting subject worth commenting on.

Last edited by cheesie; 2009-05-16 at 18:48.
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Old 2009-05-15, 23:05   Link #335
MeoTwister5
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Old 2009-05-16, 00:38   Link #336
stpehen
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Originally Posted by BetoJR View Post
And why should we care about what you think, stpehen?
Because mine is the voice of reason, and a lot of brain cells are being wasted on discussion that is of absolutely non-existent importance or relevance.
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Old 2009-05-16, 00:55   Link #337
jpwong
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I know it was sort of mentioned in Cross Game's latest manga chapter, but DVD Vol 1 is going on sale July 24 and will feature episodes 1-3 for 5,000 yen.
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Old 2009-05-16, 01:05   Link #338
monir
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I know it was sort of mentioned in Cross Game's latest manga chapter, but DVD Vol 1 is going on sale July 24 and will feature episodes 1-3 for 5,000 yen.
Ouch. I was thinking.... about this and that... $52 + shipping = About 20 dollars per episode?? I suppose I'll have to let that thought die.
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Old 2009-05-16, 01:11   Link #339
golthin
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Ouch. I was thinking.... about this and that... $52 + shipping = About 20 dollars per episode?? I suppose I'll have to let that thought die.
weak economy really hurts the buying power of the dollar. 95 yen to the dollar, i think last time it was that low was in the 80s.
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Old 2009-05-16, 01:59   Link #340
jpwong
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weak economy really hurts the buying power of the dollar. 95 yen to the dollar, i think last time it was that low was in the 80s.
You're telling me, Canadian Dollar is at 80 yen per dollar. Unless the DVD has a first press bonus that's amazing, I'm thinking I'll wait for the economy to recover before I even consider purchasing the DVDs.

I'm more interested in knowing when they're going to release the series OST now. At least that is something I can affoard.
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