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Old 2009-04-21, 10:23   Link #2061
Jimmy C
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It's a pity there doesn't seem to be a translation of DVD 9's booklet. The entry for W.A.S is there.

Quote:
Originally Posted by arkhangelsk View Post
It doesn't explode. It bobs around at a walking pace,
You might consider that it actually uses more energy to just bob around than to zip through the area like a rocket. It uses X amount of magic per second to operate, regardless of the speed it's moving. As a result, it eats up more energy per meter at a walking pace compared to a flying pace. It's just like how they say your car's fuel efficiency is better at higher speed.

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except for the energy used to counter AMF (which can be solved if we figure the AMF is relatively weak and/or the anti-AMF measures are comprehensive)
The AMF may be "relatively" weak to Nanoha as a whole, but it's almost certainly overwhelming to a dinky little sphere of magic. Next, no matter how comprehensive the anti-AMF measures are, they are composed of magic, are worn down by the AMF and must be maintained by a continuous input of magic. Without that input, it's just a matter of time before any anti-AMF measure ceases to exist. It's not like putting up a piece of physical armor against radiation, you know.

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If the AMF strength suddenly deviates from prediction (say a single AMF generator was broken on that multi-hundred year old ship) the extra power might become a power surge that would fry every "circuit" on that silly scout round. POP!
The thing is repaired you know, courtesy of its self-repair systems. And once again, you're thinking of an immaterial construct as if it was a physical object. Rather than frying as if you put too much current down a wire, it could absorb the excess by, oh I don't know... expanding perhaps? I'm sure they can tolerate a range of input magic levels. More to the point, even if the AMF generator was down in one section, it'll still be up in others, that'll balance out any surges.
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Old 2009-04-21, 10:51   Link #2062
Keroko
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Jimmy C View Post
It's a pity there doesn't seem to be a translation of DVD 9's booklet. The entry for W.A.S is there.
Entry in question:



Speaking of translations, anyone interested in teaming up and getting this done? I've got the booklets, and I'm ready and able to edit them, but I kinda need help in the translating department.
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Old 2009-04-21, 11:56   Link #2063
arkhangelsk
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Jimmy C View Post
It's a pity there doesn't seem to be a translation of DVD 9's booklet. The entry for W.A.S is there.
Here's what is says:
Quote:
Originally Posted by WAS
W.A.S. is short/acronym (略) for "Wide Area Search". It is a type of "Wide Area (広域) Remote (遠隔) Visual (目視) Surveillance/Observation (観測)" using little scattered searchers. The discovered target is locked on to, and based on the distance to the mage , it is possible to determine the position. Nanoha has been deploying this move since the break into the Cradle, in order to search for the "Command Tower hidden in the Safe Place". Raising heart put the majority (literally: "larger than half") of its functionality into the search in order to search for Quattro.
Quote:
You might consider that it actually uses more energy to just bob around than to zip through the area like a rocket. It uses X amount of magic per second to operate, regardless of the speed it's moving. As a result, it eats up more energy per meter at a walking pace compared to a flying pace. It's just like how they say your car's fuel efficiency is better at higher speed.
That's true in terms of distance and efficiency. However, in terms of time, the factor is consumption.

Quote:
The AMF may be "relatively" weak to Nanoha as a whole, but it's almost certainly overwhelming to a dinky little sphere of magic.
For all the brave statements of its "high concentration", in the next sentence, it quickly says that the level is chosen to not interfere (at least not overly) with the operation of both mages (presumably, not many Belkan mages are Nanoha in rank) and devices because they are so useful. Ahh, kinds of puts limits on the usual concentrations, eh? Oh sure, it can be very powerful - we've seen it, but its usual setting is clearly not there.

Quote:
Next, no matter how comprehensive the anti-AMF measures are, they are composed of magic, are worn down by the AMF and must be maintained by a continuous input of magic. Without that input, it's just a matter of time before any anti-AMF measure ceases to exist. It's not like putting up a piece of physical armor against radiation, you know.
So there is a two way street. The AMF probably isn't as strong (in relative terms) as you think it is throughout most of the ship, and the protection was there and working.

Quote:
The thing is repaired you know, courtesy of its self-repair systems.
Fine. However, you are still assuming that there is a perfectly even or at least predictable distribution of AMF generators and field strengths through the whole ship. One error and the power begins to surge.

Quote:
And once again, you're thinking of an immaterial construct as if it was a physical object. Rather than frying as if you put too much current down a wire, it could absorb the excess by, oh I don't know... expanding perhaps?
Since there are probably several parts to the round, do they have the same expansion coefficient to the surge? And the surge would be fast, so before the round can expand as a whole, something is likely to break.

Quote:
I'm sure they can tolerate a range of input magic levels. More to the point, even if the AMF generator was down in one section, it'll still be up in others, that'll balance out any surges.
No it won't. The problem is the total resistance and power. Nanoha will be feeding increasing amounts of power into the thing based on her prediction of the breakdown rate. If that is suddenly overestimated, Nanoha will feed more power. Poof.
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Old 2009-04-21, 12:17   Link #2064
Keroko
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Quote:
Originally Posted by arkhangelsk View Post
For all the brave statements of its "high concentration", in the next sentence, it quickly says that the level is chosen to not interfere (at least not overly) with the operation of both mages (presumably, not many Belkan mages are Nanoha in rank) and devices because they are so useful. Ahh, kinds of puts limits on the usual concentrations, eh? Oh sure, it can be very powerful - we've seen it, but its usual setting is clearly not there.
You'll note that the line is question was talking about 'complete cut off' so it obviously was referring to the super AMF that even knocked Rein out of Unison. Not the field that was up all the time. It never said it was 'chosen not to interfere with with the operation of mages and devices' it was said to be programmed not to interfere with machinery. I'll remind you that the entire ship runs on magic, doing a complete magic cut off means shutting down the ships reactor. The reactor has enough power to punch through the AMF, but mages would have trouble.

Here is the quote again for reference:

The high concentration field filling the Cradle that prevents magical bonding.

The reason for not doing a complete cut off is because magic is an extremely efficient and good energy source for Midchildra, and thus is essential to the daily activities and machinery usage of the people on board.

It is thought that the Cradle's crew and knights are trained to resist AMF, and thus can use magic against intruders who are having difficulty using magic, thus increasing the defensive capability of the ground.
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Old 2009-04-21, 12:32   Link #2065
arkhangelsk
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Precisely. In other words, there are limits on how relatively powerful it could be at its usual setting, seeing that it allows for the use of machinery (machinery that includes control circuitry, and you can't be telling me the only piece of machinery that has to work is the main engine..., rather than HUGE assortment of smaller machinery that services a large warship that carries the Emperor himself) and the daily activities of those on board.
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Old 2009-04-21, 12:52   Link #2066
Keroko
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Machinery works differently from spells. An AMF would have no effect on machines since they don't necessarily link mana, as linking mana is a property for spells. The text says 'complete cut off,' not merely unlinking. It's a different function.
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Old 2009-04-21, 12:54   Link #2067
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No doubt the AMF and the ship's ancillary systems could be tuned not interfere with each other, or not as much. Or some kind of AAMF physical shielding.

On the subject of WAS drones, I would see it thus- their virtual materiality- with no real physical component (aside from gas molecules perhaps, used to stabilize the magical drone construct. I would further imagine that the drones don't have or need any kind of line of sight or controlling link, perhaps being interfaced with Nanoha and Raising Heart on the same level as something like mage-telepathy
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Old 2009-04-21, 12:57   Link #2068
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There seems to be extremely few functions that mana can accomplish in the real world without first being linked. The very usefulness of AMF depends on this.
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Old 2009-04-21, 12:58   Link #2069
Keroko
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And you are basing that claim on what exactly? The usefulness of AMF is as anti-mage equipment, that does not make it anti-magitech equipment.
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Old 2009-04-21, 13:13   Link #2070
arkhangelsk
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The fact that special mention was given to a process (strengthening) that was actually useful without having to link mana is a strong clue that there isn't exactly a long list of doables without linking mana.

And you are making the claim in the other direction, that magitech is MASSIVELY different from magical spells, even though the section on AMF clearly suggests they are being affected, and they don't do complete cutoffs so that they work. The fact that it is put in the same section as the AMF clearly suggests that "cutoff" is but a upgraded stage of what they are putting on usually, rather than some fundamentally different process.
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Old 2009-05-19, 05:38   Link #2071
xiaoamy
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1) What setting is Nanoha StrikerS on? Is it on Earth?
2) I wonder why the weapons for the characters included magazines or cylinder (revolver) or pump (shotgun)? It seems that the weapons are more gun-like melee weapons (ex. staffs, knuckles, axe) than actual Magical Weapons...
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Old 2009-05-19, 06:10   Link #2072
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Quote:
Originally Posted by xiaoamy View Post
1) What setting is Nanoha StrikerS on? Is it on Earth?
2) I wonder why the weapons for the characters included magazines or cylinder (revolver) or pump (shotgun)? It seems that the weapons are more gun-like melee weapons (ex. staffs, knuckles, axe) than actual Magical Weapons...
This should really be asked in the Q&A section instead, but I'll answer them here.

1. Seasons 1 and 2 take place on Earth. In Season 3, they're in another world. The One World to rule them all and in the Darkness bind them

2. Dont' let the "Magical Girl" fool you into thinking that this is your run-of-the-mill magical girl show where the term "magic"="42". Basically, their weapons are like highly tuned machines used to form spells. The magazines and stuff are used for additional power. Magic is stored in 'cartridges' for use when they need a power boost.
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Old 2009-05-19, 07:01   Link #2073
xiaoamy
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Originally Posted by Nya~n View Post
This should really be asked in the Q&A section instead, but I'll answer them here.

1. Seasons 1 and 2 take place on Earth. In Season 3, they're in another world. The One World to rule them all and in the Darkness bind them

2. Dont' let the "Magical Girl" fool you into thinking that this is your run-of-the-mill magical girl show where the term "magic"="42". Basically, their weapons are like highly tuned machines used to form spells. The magazines and stuff are used for additional power. Magic is stored in 'cartridges' for use when they need a power boost.
So that is why many people say Nanoha is more Gundam like anime...
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Old 2009-05-19, 12:34   Link #2074
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Originally Posted by xiaoamy View Post
So that is why many people say Nanoha is more Gundam like anime...
The series is, for all intents and purposes, a thinly disguised Super Robot show. When you approach it from that angle, things make much more sense.
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Old 2009-05-19, 13:05   Link #2075
Estavali
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IIRC Nanohawiki mentioned that a magus can decide whether to set magical damage to "lethal" or not.
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Old 2009-05-26, 00:43   Link #2076
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Ah yeah that. I just answered my own query, but I'll offer it here. Compare it to ruroni kenshin's reverse bladed katana.
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Old 2009-05-31, 08:42   Link #2077
Keroko
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Originally Posted by Drethillsh View Post
That doesn't address all of the points we brought up, but it's nice information to have.

The first one says that the Saint's Armor is Vivio's ability, not the Cradle's, and that was one major element in giving her that level of power.
That is indeed a factor we have been wondering about. How are they going to scale a powerful ability like that? I'm curious how Vivid is going to do so.

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Originally Posted by Drethillsh View Post
As for the second one, I thought the effect of that energy was that she could keep fighting without getting tired (yes, another major part of her power, but in a short fight she could be just as effective). That might be just wishful thinking, though, because of how awesome Vivio was (I really wanted some random plot device to bring every TSAB character into that room, and Vivio would just keep beating them down).
The effect of Sacred Cluster clearly show that it wasn't just limitless, but also empowering.

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Originally Posted by Drethillsh View Post
But Nanoha as a series so far hasn't been in the habit of disappointing me my want for characters to show that the power they had as enemies doesn't evaporate when they join the good side. I still see Vivio as a much stronger character than at least most of the rest of the cast, and it was just bothering me to see lots of "Vivio's become really weak now" type comments without having any information that put her much below her power level in StrikerS. Again, maybe my hope is blinding me, but I'd be really surprised and dissappointed if Vivio was weak, and in five years of products, Nanoha (the series)has only dissapointed me once. That's a good track record.
I'm pretty darn sure that, being the main character and being placed among other high-ranked mages (because Ginga and her sisters are hardly weak) means that she's not some D-rank nobody. Whether or not her powers rival her mothers, though, that is still up for debate.

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Lastly, where is that picture from?! I needs my information sources, I needs them...
DVD booklets. These are one of the few translated, I really want to get them all translated but I know zero written Japanese, and no translators are motivated enough to translate that mountain of text, so it's been kind of hard to get started.
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Old 2009-05-31, 09:04   Link #2078
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That is indeed a factor we have been wondering about. How are they going to scale a powerful ability like that? I'm curious how Vivid is going to do so.



The effect of Sacred Cluster clearly show that it wasn't just limitless, but also empowering.



I'm pretty darn sure that, being the main character and being placed among other high-ranked mages (because Ginga and her sisters are hardly weak) means that she's not some D-rank nobody. Whether or not her powers rival her mothers, though, that is still up for debate.



DVD booklets. These are one of the few translated, I really want to get them all translated but I know zero written Japanese, and no translators are motivated enough to translate that mountain of text, so it's been kind of hard to get started.
I'm just guessing that the Hegemon Ingvalt will have some similar or equally powerful ability. Or Vivio is going to be to ViVid what Alucard is to Hellsing: completely unstoppable (well, you know...), but really cool.

I'd like to point to the most recent (as of this writing) comic from The Order of the Stick for this: One character (Vaarsuvius) has made a deal with a number of fiends to bind the souls of powerful mages to his own, giving him access to their spellcasting ability. He goes and fights the series's main bad guy (Xykon), another spellcaster, who can no longer really match Vaarsuvius spell for spell.
BUT- even though Vaarsuvius was a stronger spellcaster, at his core, he wasn't as strong as Xykon, because he didn't get anything other than spellpower from the deal, whereas Xykon had the experience, the resiliancy, and the tricks from gaining his power naturally (in his own words, "Spells don't equal power... Power equals power."). What I mean is that there are a lot of things beyond just energy boosts that it takes to really be strong. If Vivio was extremely weak without the power boost, it wouldn't have mattered how much power she got. It's the magical equivalent of being topheavy.

At the very least, her Saint's Armor means that her defenses probably do rival her mothers'. But yeah, I'll admit that we don't really know yet. I'd be surprised if she wasn't a lot stronger than Ginga and the numbers, though.

Where are they? The raws, too, if there are any; I don't have a lot of skill in Japanese, but enough that a kanji dictionary and a few hours (...and some consulting with my girlfriend...) will give me an idea of what's being said; besides, I need the practice. I've already read all of my untranslated manga.
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Old 2009-05-31, 09:58   Link #2079
Jimmy C
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Even without the Relic, Vivio's Saint's Armor could tank Deici's S-rank cannon attack set at full physical destruction mode.
If the energy for that can be channeled into an attack instead, I expect the results to be... impressive.
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Old 2009-05-31, 10:15   Link #2080
Drethillsh
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Right, and it wasn't even active then!
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