2009-05-19, 16:32 | Link #5001 | ||
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Join Date: Apr 2008
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The point here is that Schneizel made it clear that he didn't care if the Black Knights died as long as he got his victory, and yet the Black Knights fought for him. They didn't like that Lelouch may not have had Japan's interests at heart, but then they ally themselves with someone who 1) oppressed and bombed their country, and 2) would probably do it again after Lelouch was defeated. That last point really bugs me. If the Black Knights defeated Lelouch, then what? They're weakened by the battle, and meanwhile Schneizel has Damocles, and could attempt to retake control of Britannia (he'd be popular with the deposed nobles, for one). What the Black Knights did was dubious both strategically and morally. |
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2009-05-19, 17:12 | Link #5002 | ||
Um-Shmum
Join Date: Dec 2007
Location: at GNR, bringing you the truth, no matter how bad it hurts
Age: 39
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they oust him becouse they believe he is a monster who murders unarmed women and children if it serves his purpose (he actually did do that) they later ally themselves with Schneizel against lelouch when lelouch takes over britannia and continues the war against them, re-conquers japan, and takes the UFN leaders hostage Schneizel may not care about japans best interests as much as his OWN interests but japans best interests and indeed the UFN's best interests at the time were to NOT be conquered by lelouch which is why they attacked lelouch with all the force they could gain, which at the time included an alliance with Schneizel they let Schneizel command the actual battle in the field becouse he A)a master stratigist on par with lelouch B)gave them his word that in exchange for commanding the troops he would refrain from using the damocles (they asked him for help, then told him not to use the only real weapon he had, they had to give him something) Quote:
before lelouch took over britannia Schneizel was on britannia's side (he IS britannia's prime minister) and possesing the damocles on the other side of the board was the UFN and the OOBK lelouch took over britannia and suddenyl Schneizel is out of a job and cut off from britannia (he cant show his face, lelouch would kill him) so Schneizel sits on the side lines to watch what happens next lelouch shows up to the UFN meeting under the pretext of peace and the makes his move turning himself into the enemy of the world (in practice its mostly the UFN at the time) he does this to lure Schneizel into making HIS move against him by using the damocles against pendragon (as suzaku said, its what he expected) Schneizel did attack lelouch at the same time as lelouch taking the UFN leaders hostage but he did so IN RESPONSE to lelouch doing so and in fact lelouch did it TO MAKE HIM DO THAT it keeps him from attacking the targets lelouch actually DOES care about in japan (kallen, ashford) Schneizel for his part plays along with lelouch's plan becouse he had his own card up his sleve (nunnaly) Schneizel blows up pendragon and makes it clear to EVERYONE that he doesnt accept lelouch as emperor this helps the OOBK by freezing britannia's goverment works and helping them to balance the fight the OOBK then turn to Schneizel for an alliance becosue Schneizel had already proved himself as an enemy of lelouch had Schneizel NOT made his move they wouldnt have bothered to contact him (he IS britannian after all) but they turned to him becouse he had proved that, whatever else he might be, he is lelouch's enemy same as them and they needed all the help they could get at the time (case in point, they let gino join them) the damocles is NOT a bigger threat then the OOBK the OOBK at the time was made up of the armies of every UFN member state meaning its a world wide army of tens if not millions of soldiers the damocles is one weapon system if not for its ability to reach high enough that it cant be attacked it wouldnt be all that much of a threat (it cant fire and keep its shields up at the same time) the only reason lelouch was able to use it to make the world surrender is that he had control of the damocles AND the britannian army (hence, the OOBK no longer had the power to oppose him) and again the OOBK turned leadership over to Schneizel for the SOLE REASON of keeping him from using the damocles (his only real weapon) he was NOT the actual leader of the UFN or the OOBK and only commanded them during that battle becosue they agreed to LET him at no point did Schneizel mention sacrificing the lives of OOBK soldeirs to THEM he did say that killing the UFN leaders (who have already been replaced) was a small price to pay for getting world peace by removing lelouch and agreed to xing-ke request NOT to do it (which is why they gave him command) Schneizel had always been shown as a noble demon he never attacked or opressed their country he was supporing euphie's SAZ and he was the one behind the cease fire after the fljia in ep 18 (and came HIMSELF to show them proof against lelouch) the point that really bugs you is simple what happens AFTER they get rid of lelouch is irrelevent if lelouch wins, conquers the world and executes them all for opposing him they faced lelouch beocuse lelouch was the bigger threat the allied with Schneizel becouse they needed all the help they could get and Schneizel had proved that he was also lelouch's enemy they had no reason to think that Schneizel would attack them the man HELPED THEM he warned them about lelouch the dude was the picture of what a benevolent britannian emperor would look like (compared to the monster they were fighting ATM)
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2009-05-19, 17:13 | Link #5003 | |
Banned
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BK, did not want to sit in the dark-non-move-corner, and they pretended to do something. They are just going back, in what they have said, their ideals and they are being total naive, trusting Schneizel, of all people. Like i have said, BK react wildly irrational, after Turn 19. |
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2009-05-20, 11:19 | Link #5004 |
Senior Member
Join Date: Aug 2007
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Code Geass R2, in my opinion, was the biggest WTF season of all time. When I compare it to other animes that I have watched, Season 1 and Season 2 were vastly different series that almost contrast one another. For example, why wouldn't Lelouch tell Suzaku that he accidently geassed Euphemia to kill the Japanese? The Season 1 version of Lelouch would have explained his reasons to Suzaku. This could have cleared up the misunderstanding that led to the demise of their friendship.
Second, how on Earth would the Black Knights fall for such a lame explanation from Schniezel regarding the identity of Zero so easily, even with the recording. As a matter of fact, why would Lelouch ever go to the shrine to meet Suzaku without having the area inspected first to see if there were any spies in the area to entrap him. In addition, why would Lelouch reveal to Suzaku that he got his memories back and ask him to protect Nunnally when he could have done that himself. Third, since the Black Knights knew about Lelouch's geass, why didn't they suspect that C.C. had one as well? She is the witch who gave Lelouch his powers. These Black Knights appeared to have forgotten who gave them the power to fight Britannia. And it had nothing to do with the geass. Rather Lelouch's leadership, which doesn't require the geass, except to use it for his groups' advantage against Britannia. Forth, it seems that this season was about destroying Lelouch x Suzaku from the world. Sorta like a childhood promise that they made to create a peaceful world. This is a contradiction to the commitment that both of them made to free Japan from Britannia, in the first season. When did this series degressed into an another Gundam free for all? Why would Orgi, all of a sudden, develop such a deep hatred for Zero/Lelouch? I am sure Villetta must have told him everything about Lelouch's geass. If that was the case, why didn't she tell him about C.C. as the one who grants the powers of the Geass? As for Dietard, I simply can't see why he would turn against Lelouch to join up with Schniezel and Cornelia, since he was considered a traitor to Britannia. He had a lot to gain by seeing the Black Knights/ UFN win the war than to follow a man who would kill him when the opportunity arrived, which it did. The Dietard from the first season would not have left the Black Knights to join Schniezel because it would have been suicide to do so. In conclusion, I have to believe that Code Geass and Code Geass R2 are two completely different series. Depite what the creators have said, they were known for giving contradictional information since they are not allow to say any negative information regarding the second season. I fould it very tough to believe that Lelouch actually believed that to be killed by Suzaku/Zero would make the world forget about sins that was committed. Thus, his death would make the world into a peaceful place, while Suzaku spends the rest of his life hidding behind the mask of Zero to atone for killing his father. Whatever the planned ending was to have been, in the original format that was aimed at the latenight audience, I will stand by my personal belief that Zero's Requiem wasn't one of them, except to bring an unplanned story to a complete stop. |
2009-05-20, 12:29 | Link #5005 |
Senior Member
Join Date: Dec 2008
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I can say that Diethard was all about following the most interesting story. He thought the Britannian status quo was dull, and became excited at the idea of Zero's revolution. Finally, he went insane with glee over Schneizel's idea of ruling the world through fear.
Diethard was never about fighting the status quo. He was only interested in documenting the changing of the guards of history, and in a few cases, manipulating things (i. e. lying that Zero wanted Suzaku killed to Kallen). Regarding Lelouch and Suzaku, it was apparently because Lelouch didn't like making excuses to the people he cared for, or appearing to make light of serious things, when it came to him not telling the truth about Euphie. It would have made sense for Lelouch to tell him that the whole thing was an accident, but how would Suzaku have taken it? |
2009-05-20, 12:34 | Link #5006 | |
Banned
Join Date: Feb 2009
Location: Los Angelas, California
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2009-05-20, 12:53 | Link #5007 | ||||||||
Senior Member
Join Date: Dec 2008
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I didn't have that impression at all. For one, consider the cliffhanger we ended season one on and how Lelouch actually did the opposite of what you're assuming. That's enough to prove that your assumption is not very accurate, in my opinion. Quote:
Suzaku could have, if he wanted to do so, directly threaten Nunnally and extort Lelouch into stopping the war or worse, which he probably would have. If anything, Lelouch's appeal to Suzaku was a way to proactively prevent such an outcome. As for having the area inspected, I think you're ignoring that the place was a neutral zone of sorts due to its emotional significance to both Suzaku and Lelouch. It's not like Lelouch always inspected each and every place beforehand either, in both seasons, so you're assuming too much. Quote:
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After this failed, Lelouch was thought to be done for and Diethard just stuck with the winning side, as it were. Seeing Schneizel as a new "rising star" who he could latch on to isn't exactly that unusual, if you accept Diethard had no loyalties to the Japanese cause per se. Quote:
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2009-05-20, 13:00 | Link #5008 | |
Senior Member
Join Date: Aug 2007
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I'll will agree that we will never as to whether or not Lelouch would have really told Suzaku the truth about why he killed Euphie. Either way, I felt it might have been possible to have seen a development into Cecile x Suzaku relationship. Perhaps, Cecile could have calm Suzaku's nerves with her deliptable charm because she could have helped to heal Suzaku's emotions over the loss of Euphemia's death. |
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2009-05-20, 13:18 | Link #5009 | ||
Senior Member
Join Date: Dec 2008
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During the Kururugi Shrine meeting, Suzaku could tell Lelouch had been lying though, which presumably included the part about the Euphemia geassing being a deliberate action that he did. (He also took the fall for Shirley's murder, even though that was all Rolo.) I still consider the possibility that Suzaku was either told or somehow figured out the truth on his own during the timeskip between the World of C incident with Charles/Marianne and when they took over the throne, since they had once again become best friends.
I will agree that Lelouch screwed up by saying that what happened to Euphemia was in the past, where he should have instead said he could explain later, but apparently the creative team wanted to draw the situation out into a massive cliffhanger. Quote:
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Last edited by azul120; 2009-05-20 at 13:35. |
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2009-05-20, 14:04 | Link #5010 | |
Senior Member
Join Date: Aug 2007
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The creative staff even said that Lelouch x Suzaku would never become friends again. A very big contradiction. Suzaku did join up with him for the final task. But Zero's Requiem was, in my opinion, a last minute story to close the season on the assumption that there would not be another Code Geass series. |
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2009-05-20, 14:10 | Link #5011 | |
Senior Member
Join Date: Dec 2008
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2009-05-20, 14:11 | Link #5012 | |
Shameless Fangirl
Join Date: Sep 2008
Location: Germany
Age: 34
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Edit: Ah, late again. xD
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2009-05-20, 14:56 | Link #5013 | |
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Join Date: Aug 2007
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In addition, I still think that Code Geass R2, towards the mass audience, was a just a summer vechicle to get them ready for Gundam 00 once it have ended. And, I don't think that there was any other Sunrise anime projects in the pipeline to be released at that time. |
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2009-05-20, 15:03 | Link #5014 |
Shameless Fangirl
Join Date: Sep 2008
Location: Germany
Age: 34
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I could now explain for the thousandst time why Lelouch and Suzaku were friends again by the end of the anime, but actually, just this once, I will take the liberty and say...
Nope, it's just not worth the effort. So yeah. Lelouch and Suzaku were friends again. No doubt about that, and no point in discussing it once again. But just for the heck of it: Suzaku didn't work with Zero. He worked with Lelouch.
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2009-05-20, 15:11 | Link #5016 | |
Banned
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Ok, srsly now, Lelouch and Suzaku could never rekindle their friendship or return to where they were, because of all the crap and heartache that have took place in between them, that is obvious. Some things "break" and some things, that are way strong from the beginning, tend to "bend". <-kinda the case with those two They did reach a great level of mutual understanding in the end and they worked together, to find a way, to atone for their sins and make the world peaceful. I am not really sure, if i would label them as "bff again!!1" after the ending, frankly, it is quite difficult for me, to find a correct "definition" for what they "had" in the end, but i guess, i will have to go, with what the staff said. |
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2009-05-20, 15:12 | Link #5017 | |
Senior Member
Join Date: Aug 2007
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Code Geass is simply an epic that is too big to be contained in 25 episodes. After all the crap that the staff had to go through with producing Code Geass R2, I was not surprised to have seen them kill off Lelouch as a way of stopping the series from moving forward. It would be very difficult to replace Lelouch with another character, much less the storyline. |
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2009-05-20, 15:17 | Link #5019 | |
Banned
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I am not sure, if it was gonna be orchestrated like it was in the finale, but the whole plan, was there all along. |
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2009-05-20, 15:19 | Link #5020 | |
Shameless Fangirl
Join Date: Sep 2008
Location: Germany
Age: 34
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Hm... I have no trouble with viewing Lelouch and Suzaku as "even better friends than before the whole thing", but I can see how it might be a problem for some.
And I don't mind - I'm happy as long as the staff agrees with me. xD Quote:
And look, if we fit this together, we can rewrite R2 all by ourselves and fill it with so much more awesomeness! xD
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