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Old 2009-04-08, 18:55   Link #61
Fevvers
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Yeah, I don't think she's tsundere at all. Then again, I don't want to pigeonhole characters into stereotypes if it could be helped.

She is in her denial/confusion stage with Layfon though, so a bit of snappy moments from her would be unavoidable, I think. Not that that's bad thing, I'd rather the anime develop the romance angles much gradually instead of the usual love at first/second sight (coughfellicough).
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Old 2009-04-09, 18:53   Link #62
Voitan
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Originally Posted by willyvereb View Post
She's far from Tsundere...more like Nakamadere
The Tsunderes are hurting the other(physicaly or emotionaly) with their denial. Nina has no problem being close to Layfon but she constantly denies her feelings and she tries hard to think about him as "just" a comrade.
I'll agree here as well. Nina doesn't lash out at Layfon, though she will grill him hard on something she disapproves of.

Think of your typical D&D Paladin, and that's her.
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Old 2009-04-10, 00:42   Link #63
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Yeah...i guess her next Dite would be a two handed warhammer
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Old 2009-04-10, 07:23   Link #64
TrueKnight
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Okay maybe she's not a tsundere but when she's truly fallen for him I'm betting she'd be all tsun-tsun like the scene they showed us in ep 11.
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Old 2009-04-10, 09:29   Link #65
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Yep, Nina surely isn't a full tsundere and felli isn't a full loli, so we've half clichč chara, for this they're awesome
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Old 2009-05-14, 03:29   Link #66
Ultramarinus
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Originally Posted by Voitan View Post
Think of your typical D&D Paladin, and that's her.
Indeed and this by itself already was enough to make her my favorite character in the series. However she's not the blind self-righteous type so tries her best to learn and improve, interacting with other characters and developing them as well. I'd say that Layfon owes most of his development to her and thus, the plot itself.

Her dedication to the nobler goals are combined with a degree of realistic approach (most easily noticed as her pursuit of strength, as she's aware that just idealism isn't enough) makes her stand a clear cut above the usual stereotype in my book.

To be honest, it doesn't make sense that she's not as popular as some other characters that barely developed even if at all, not to mention that they act as if thinking they're living in Tokyo with no survival worries. I wonder if some people really watch this show as a romantic high school comedy, valuing characters based on cuteness.
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Old 2009-05-14, 05:42   Link #67
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The reasons simple...
1.The anime made her stupider and weaker than she really is.
2. she opposes Layfon-sama, the "god of Regios"
3. Hard to read, and she seems like an emotional rollercoaster with that.
The light novels translated to english(thanks to Blewin) to chapter 4 of the first volume.
Spoiler for LN happenings:
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Old 2009-05-14, 11:59   Link #68
satomianzaki
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among the girl characters in regios, nina is also my favorite...even though some dislike her, i totally like the way they made and develop her character...well, i agree with willy that her character in the novel is way more pleasant than the one we witnessed in the anime...
but i still think she really stands out among the other girl characters in csr...

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Old 2009-05-20, 09:13   Link #69
Ultramarinus
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Originally Posted by TrueKnight View Post
Alright then let’s talk about some of the few negative traits about Nina:

- Made the most contributions on Zuellni losing one of its mines 2 years prior.
- Selfishly forcing Layfon to change his philosophy when she basically was living in a idealistic whereas Layfon is pragmatic;
- Advising Layfon not to subdue Dinn Dee when Kallian and Haia insisted otherwise;
- Didn’t do crap in ep 14 and just watching;
- Getting herself all beaten up and didn’t take Sheena’s advice in ep 16 because she was overestimating herself;
- She was asked by Layfon to check on Zuellni, she did, and found the Haikizoku and possessed being teleported to Myath along with Zuellni’s fairy. Ultimately in a strategic PoV for the city, she had failed, horribly. Zuellni was gone and the city becomes vulnerable to FM’s attacks.

Seriously, what made platoon 17 or even Zuellni so special? It’s not Nina, the star players are Layfon and Felli all along.
To start with, as long as someone can reflect on his mistakes and try to improve with good will, it enriches the character. In fact, this is pretty much the most commended type of character development. I never claim that Nina is perfect, it's not such a kind of anime. The lead ones are teenagers after all, they're interacting and evolving. I was uninterested in Layfon till he found his new path as well. After that, I came to like him even if he's more like chaotic good. That's why Felli rubs me the wrong way all around.

- She was the closest to taking the flag still, arguably a lack of good teamwork and she wasn't as powerful back then. Reflects on it and forms her squad to start with a better position next time. Inter-platoon matches decide start points.
- And that's what caused Layfon to awaken. Had she not, buh-bye Czellni on ep 7. Not to mention that the most serious plot advancement till now as it set the lead's motivation.
- Well, I think she cared for him as he was like her, determined to protect the city. She had warned him as well, going against police orders so that's an indication. Maybe it didn't serve the greater good, I'll accept that. It's a conflict that arises frequently in lawful good characters. Sometimes you can't satisfy both aspects of your alignment and have to. Most people find LG characters uninteresting but I find them exciting due to the dilemmas they face, their preference defines and crafts their character.
- Yeah but ep 14 was practically Sharnid's 15 mins of fame and Layfon soloed pretty much everything else. It's not like she avoided anything based on what we saw, people kept telling "leave that to us!/me!" to her.
- Her mistake was to not postpone the match but that was to show Layfon that he shouldn't take all the burden on his shoulders anymore. A serious mistake, but out of goodwill. As for the match strategy, there were 2 tanks and 2 ranged, opposition would gang up on them if they went together. I doubt they would fare any better, opposition could just delay them long enough to get their flag. We're informed that platoon 17 is one of the less populated squads and they went against the most powerful, so it doesn't come across as a surprise. She did overestimate her platoon though, I'll give you that.
- It was out of her control, Layfon barely avoided possession earlier. As I keep repeating, it wasn't her own will or choice for things to go that way. Haikizoku conveniently found someone with strong willpower and didn't miss the opportunity.

Quote:
Originally Posted by TrueKnight View Post
I know man, but she did it nevertheless. A lot of people and lives were saved because of her using her powers. Nina on the other hand didn’t have the god-like powers like Layfon and Felli’s. So she was being useful by properly command and utilizing them. But without them she’s just the same as all platoon grunts leader in the Regios world, nothing special. Now that she has the Haikizoku she’ll be target by the Ignus and somewhat that’ll made her central to the whole plot.
As I said earlier, power isn't the same thing as strength. Everybody can't be John Rambo, someone's gotta be his colonel. As much as Rambo is cool, the colonel both helps the plot to advance and a likable character. Regios setting is kinda like Vietnam war and Felli just doesn't suit it. Sharnid does, Dinn does, the president, even Meisshen does, because someone's gotta peel potatoes even in war. But you don't bring selfish princesses to Vietnam, it just feels wrong and out of place.

Maybe they'll extract the goat before she can even use its power, there are multiple directions to head from here.

Quote:
But what about Nina?

Layfon got hurt in ep 15 because of the bridge falling and in ep 16 what was she thinking? The platoon match, not his subordinate’s well being but rather his powers and the effect for the squad. No wonder Felli always detest for being used because of people like her and Kallian who treated them as tools rather than human being. I guess that’s the ‘curse’ of having great power comes with big responsibilities.

I mean come on. Nina was all reckless in ep 1 – 7 but because of Layfon she changed to be a better squad leader and a captain from ep 7 onwards. Felli from I don’t care and don’t want to use my powers I don’t give a crap to anybody but because of Layfon finally willing did all the efforts I mention above.

It’s their character growths, but it’s not all without fault. Felli as you said is still being too dependent on Layfon to defining her character, while Nina depending to Layfon just for his powers. Nina finally snapped and maybe also Felli in the future.

Lets just sit back and enjoy their character grow because of Layfon and maybe we can have a harem.
I told about the LG dilemma above, that's where the lawful aspect went into foreground. It also makes sense considering that she cannot abandon her duties and responsibilities as a commander and wail for a single squad member that apparently was expected to recover fast. (Regios science seems to treat even spine damage like a mere cold, we saw other examples before like Nina getting slashed, etc) Still, she blamed herself later on due to letting the lawful aspect outweigh goodness. Another dilemma with no clear right answer.

I like Nina because she's imperfect in a good way. Humans after all, are faulty creatures, it's only your intention that your character can be judged on. Whatever that doesn't kill her, makes her stronger. She tries her best, doesn't budge even if things get tough. She's got ideals but ultimately she'll adapt when needed, like ep 10. But that doesn't mean abandoning them for convenience. Moreover, she develops and hormones don't play a part in it.

Oh man, what a WoT I wrote here. Ultimately, everyone can like whoever they want and dislike whoever they want and I'm not expecting to change their ideas. It's just that I'm basing these likes/dislikes on the characters' builds: their background, motivation, interaction, intention and development. So that's why I'll argue if required.
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Old 2009-05-20, 09:19   Link #70
TrueKnight
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Quote:
Originally Posted by kafka
One of my main gripes with Felli was her constant Layfonism, outside of her obsession with Layfon, what else does she have in her mind? Her volatile relationship with her brother and defiance to being used as a weapon could have been interesting, but let's be honest here, the anime has done very little to tackle that. She's just there to be... cute and a token love interest, and that's simply not a very fascinating place to be.

I'm still hoping things would change, that the show would stop making her whole world revolve around some guy, but considering it has already been 19 episodes, some doubts are completely unavoidable.

And, no, before some overzealous Felli-fan come ripping my throat, I was not criticizing her effectiveness in battle; she's a godsue, nothing more to say about that. Her reasons for using those powers are a different thing entirely. I have no problem with some selfishness on her part, especially with the whole ‘being used thing’, but when her only reason for fighting is for her twu wub, that sort of submissiveness is irksome and is in desperate need of some development.
I agree and this pretty much sums my views on her. She’s too devoted to Layfon. Some may see this as appalling while for some this is her main charm and attraction. A cold persone being pulled and attracted by somebody’s kindness or ‘stupidity’ and revolve around him with developing in the process.

Quote:
Originally Posted by cheesie
but it's not worth getting personal over it as it's just a discussion where everyone chimes in with their two cents, and so far, things are looking pretty well-behaved. It's possible to discuss about Felli's traits without aggressively pulling other characters into it, as it appears you intend to diverge from the main point when you slander other characters in response to the criticisms. (You, as in general.)
Some people are defending Nina while downplaying Felli in the process. I’m doing just the same. In this particular issue when judging a character I haven’t drag any other characters into the pissing contest right until now. In some cases I agree about judging characters should not have drag other characters, but for the sake of valuing how the character is worth (like good or evil, useful or useless, lovely or an ass, badass or a wuss), sometimes comparisons are unavoidable.

I do however, agree about the ‘aggressive’ part, it is un-necessary and I apologize.

Edit: Responses

Quote:
Originally Posted by Ultramarinus
To start with, as long as someone can reflect on his mistakes and try to improve with good will, it enriches the character. In fact, this is pretty much the most commended type of character development. I never claim that Nina is perfect, it's not such a kind of anime. The lead ones are teenagers after all, they're interacting and evolving. I was uninterested in Layfon till he found his new path as well. After that, I came to like him even if he's more like chaotic good. That's why Felli rubs me the wrong way all around.
Ah, but Felli did change with her feats that I’ve stated earlier above. Like Nina, her character also grew though not perfect.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Ultramarinus
arguably a lack of good teamwork and she wasn't as powerful back then
Okay.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Ultramarinus
- And that's what caused Layfon to awaken. Had she not, buh-bye Czellni on ep 7. Not to mention that the most serious plot advancement till now as it set the lead's motivation.
She didn’t know about Layfon’s past back then. Had she known she would’ve contradict with him once again and probably threaten to expel all over again. Layfon would’ve been transferred directly under Kallian’s command. And in the anime… Layfon had awaken because she wanted to protect Meicchi and gang (ep 5, weird but true).

Quote:
Originally Posted by Ultramarinus
Maybe it didn't serve the greater good, I'll accept that.
Okay.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Ultramarinus
Yeah but ep 14 was practically Sharnid's 15 mins of fame and Layfon soloed pretty much everything else. It's not like she avoided anything based on what we saw, people kept telling "leave that to us!/me!" to her.
Yea I agree, but she contributes almost nothing in this point.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Ultramarinus
Her mistake was to not postpone the match but that was to show Layfon that he shouldn't take all the burden on his shoulders anymore. A serious mistake, but out of goodwill.
Well the fact remains she consider him as a weapon back then. Though as you said she may regretted it and decide to change later on.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Ultramarinus
She did overestimate her platoon though, I'll give you that.
Okay and if only she had listen to other people’s inputs.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Utramarinus
It was out of her control, Layfon barely avoided possession earlier. As I keep repeating, it wasn't her own will or choice for things to go that way. Haikizoku conveniently found someone with strong willpower and didn't miss the opportunity.
In other words she’s its her weakness. She’s not strong enough to confront the Haikizoku head on. But still she insisted eventhough it backfired on her.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Ultramarinus
As much as Rambo is cool, the colonel both helps the plot to advance and a likable character. Regios setting is kinda like Vietnam war and Felli just doesn't suit it. Sharnid does, Dinn does, the president, even Meisshen does, because someone's gotta peel potatoes even in war. But you don't bring selfish princesses to Vietnam, it just feels wrong and out of place.
But in Rambo he is the show and even without a colonel he could’ve pwn left and right at will. And in Rambo 3 most of the time it’s the colonel’s ass that was being saved by Rambo remember? Now regarding Felli, in Regios, her ‘appearance’ doesn’t suit the Regios setting but her ‘functions’ does. An indispensable military assets with regards on surveillance and combat intelligence and one of the best in Zuellni. On this matter the Rambo’s setting isn’t suitable at all because of the lack of radar display. Maybe movies like the Hunt of Red October where sonar comes to mind.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Ultramarinus
It also makes sense considering that she cannot abandon her duties and responsibilities as a commander and wail for a single squad member that apparently was expected to recover fast.
As I stated earlier, on this point she still considered him as a tool or weapon rather as a ‘friend’.
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Last edited by TrueKnight; 2009-05-20 at 09:59.
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Old 2009-05-20, 11:06   Link #71
Ultramarinus
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Originally Posted by TrueKnight View Post
Ah, but Felli did change with her feats that I’ve stated earlier above. Like Nina, her character also grew though not perfect.
She displayed all the symptoms of a crush in the earliest episodes and does only what she needs to get Layfon's affection after he awakened, not more. She got a motivation but it'd be far-fetched to call that real development. She had some potential but isn't utilized till now. Maybe 'the hug' will make the trick. Ultimately, anything she did seems to be in self-interest (love can be self-interest if you don't give a damn about the other person's feelings, "you're too kind Layton") unless she proves otherwise on this point forward.

Quote:
She didn’t know about Layfon’s past back then. Had she known she would’ve contradict with him once again and probably threaten to expel all over again. Layfon would’ve been transferred directly under Kallian’s command. And in the anime… Layfon had awaken because she wanted to protect Meicchi and gang (ep 5, weird but true).
That's a speculation, I doubt that would happen as she merely mentioned getting seperated in ep 9. She was hasty to speak her mind out, but I should point out that whoever knows his past except Leerin, either:

- Sent him into exile and booed him, after having lived on his expenses
- Wanted to kill him for revenge
- Blackmailed him

So you see, what he did seems to be grave offenses against both law and custom. Certainly something to make a squad leader have second thoughts as the offenses include insubordination and using his position for self-interest. He doesn't tell the whole picture so it totally looks evil from the outside, those people don't know what really happened like we do.

Layfon awakened because it was Nina & Sharnid that would die for certain, being the first line of defense. He also recalled the trio, literally all his friends. He realized that cowering in a hole will have repercussions that he didn't want, friends' deaths.
Quote:
Well the fact remains she consider him as a weapon back then. Though as you said she may regretted it and decide to change later on.
He was and he is an asset from the viewpoint of his superiors. Military works that way, you cannot be sentimental if it'll detract you from your duty. She still felt guilt even though she did her duty.
Quote:
In other words she’s its her weakness. She’s not strong enough to confront the Haikizoku head on. But still she insisted eventhough it backfired on her.
Nobody knew the goat was there, they sent the person to survey the area to find Czellni. She didn't go there with the intention to confront the goat.
Quote:
But in Rambo he is the show and even without a colonel he could’ve pwn left and right at will. And in Rambo 3 most of the time it’s the colonel’s ass that was being saved by Rambo remember? Now regarding Felli, in Regios, her ‘appearance’ doesn’t suit the Regios setting but her ‘functions’ does. An indispensable military assets with regards on surveillance and combat intelligence and one of the best in Zuellni. On this matter the Rambo’s setting isn’t suitable at all because of the lack of radar display. Maybe movies like the Hunt of Red October where sonar comes to mind.
Rambo always lacks motivation at the start, colonel puts him back to his feet. Colonel ain't got god-mode, but that isn't his fault. It's Rambo's sheer power that makes people look like wimps, just like Layfon does.

As for Felli, she got the powers but her character is out of place, appearance doesn't matter. The most logical role I can come up with is an anti-war hippie that whines about the mosquitoes while people die left and right around him.
Quote:
As I stated earlier, on this point she still considered him as a tool or weapon rather as a ‘friend’.
As I said, it's how military works. You have to send your friends to their deaths if the task required it. She's rather compassionate, considering she's a commander. That caused her blunder to not postpone the match. She has to balance her job and her relations.
Quote:
Originally Posted by willyvereb View Post
Many people can't accept Nina's "power-up" cause of their hate towards her. And because they think it's an instant power-up(even if it is...it's at least logical and has a great plot and drawbacks with it)
Heh, the thing is that she still hasn't used its powers, probably doesn't know how to invoke them. For all we know, Savaris closes on them with the intention to take it back. The goat may have ZERO benefit for her, as till now.
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Old 2009-05-20, 11:29   Link #72
TrueKnight
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Originally Posted by Layfon
That's a speculation, I doubt that would happen as she merely mentioned getting seperated in ep 9. She was hasty to speak her mind out,
True about the Kallian part. But the possible of expulsion by her from the squad is still there. That’s who Nina is. stubborn and not willing to accept people’s opinion but rather forcing her idealistic views into someone else. Without considering that other person as also an irreplaceable military assets. She lacks judgment.

Quote:
So you see, what he did seems to be grave offenses against both law and custom. Certainly something to make a squad leader have second thoughts as the offenses include insubordination and using his position for self-interest. He doesn't tell the whole picture so it totally looks evil from the outside, those people don't know what really happened like we do.
No he was a convict and criminal, which had already received his punishment lawfully in accordance with the laws and custom given by the Queen of Grendan, that was exile. Ep 5 and 7 already contributed his good deeds earlier even though he had this kind of mindset right from the start, so the case of ‘insubordination’ as you speak can also be categorized as ‘speculation’ of whether he would stray off or not, really. Its just Nina doesn’t care exploring enough.

Quote:
Layfon awakened because it was Nina & Sharnid that would die for certain, being the first line of defense. He also recalled the trio, literally all his friends. He realized that cowering in a hole will have repercussions that he didn't want, friends' deaths.
No, it’s quite obvious ep 5 showed the trio as Layfon’s main reason to start kicking ass, at least in the anime


Quote:
Originally Posted by Ultramarinus
He was and he is an asset from the viewpoint of his superiors. Military works that way, you cannot be sentimental if it'll detract you from your duty. She still felt guilt even though she did her duty.
Which defines her ‘character’, who sees him nothing but a tool. Though it differs in the future but that’s character development.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Ultramarinus
Nobody knew the goat was there, they sent the person to survey the area to find Czellni. She didn't go there with the intention to confront the goat.
Yes, she insisted keep confronting the goat eventhough she knew the result.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Ultramarinus
As for Felli, she got the powers but her character is out of place, appearance doesn't matter.
You dismiss the facts that by using her powers she had saved a lot of lives and judging her only by her character?

Quote:
Originally Posted by Ultramarinus
The most logical role I can come up with is an anti-war hippie that whines about the mosquitoes while people die left and right around him.
Which of course, contradicts what happened up to ep 19 where using her powers she saved many poeple and helping the squad in the process.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Ultramarinus
As I said, it's how military works. You have to send your friends to their deaths if the task required it. She's rather compassionate, considering she's a commander. That caused her blunder to not postpone the match. She has to balance her job and her relations.
And as I said again, defines her character who considers people as tool just for glory.

Quote:
Originally Posted by wilivereb
I'm surprised that you didn't mention the old classical ones as her faults.
Many people can't accept Nina's "power-up" cause of their hate towards her. And because they think it's an instant power-up(even if it is...it's at least logical and has a great plot and drawbacks with it)
I won't. It may be considered as fault by some, but certainly not by me.
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Old 2009-05-20, 12:14   Link #73
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Originally Posted by TrueKnight View Post
True about the Kallian part. But the possible of expulsion by her from the squad is still there. That’s who Nina is. stubborn and not willing to accept people’s opinion but rather forcing her idealistic views into someone else. Without considering that other person as also an irreplaceable military assets. She lacks judgment.
Uh, she dropped the matter the next day. What more can you expect? If the asset has a high risk of subordination, you can be better off getting rid of it. I'd say that she let it go because she considered Layfon a friend and thought he'll behave accordingly now.

As for judgment, do you recall the dialogue between the president and 1st platoon leader who also leads military? Vance proposed to move her to another squad because her potential was put to waste coupled with unmotivated bums. The president refused and threatened with veto. Now, we all know by now that the president is an excellent judge of character. He manages to bend people to his will without lifting a finger, just through arrangements. So what we can conclude from that scene is that she thinks Nina can motivate those bums and utilize their power. And voila, all we have witnessed so far didn't prove the president wrong. That's saying something about her leading capability.

Quote:
No he was a convict and criminal, which had already received his punishment lawfully in accordance with the laws and custom given by the Queen of Grendan, that was exile. Ep 5 and 7 already contributed his good deeds earlier even though he had this kind of mindset right from the start, so the case of ‘insubordination’ as you speak can also be categorized as ‘speculation’ of whether he would stray off or not, really. Its just Nina doesn’t care exploring enough.
You must know that certain jobs require you to be criminal-record free. In this instance, his crimes aren't petty and also he can be a direct threat to the squad if he didn't change his mind. He doesn't explain his conditions and the circumstances as well. And yes, Nina changes her mind because Layfon seems to be rehabilitated (from her PoV, she doesn't know about orphanage funding or blackmail) and he's a friend. She cannot learn the truth if Layfon purposely hides it.
Quote:
No, it’s quite obvious ep 5 showed the trio as Layfon’s main reason to start kicking ass, at least in the anime
I'd say it served the audience to show us he cares for them as well. He just told Nina that they'd die if they went and tried to stop them, so we were presented what he already thought about the squad.
Quote:
Which defines her ‘character’, who sees him nothing but a tool. Though it differs in the future but that’s character development.
It's her duty, she was making friends fast with Layfon starting from ep 2. And that was after she took him as an asset in ep 1. You can be friends with your commander but he'll still work your ass off. That's how it goes.
Quote:
Yes, she insisted keep confronting the goat eventhough she knew the result.
I'm saying once more: Nobody knew it would be there, including Nina.
Quote:
You dismiss the facts that by using her powers she had saved a lot of lives and judging her only by her character?

Which of course, contradicts what happened up to ep 19 where using her powers she saved many poeple and helping the squad in the process.
I'm sorry if it wasn't apparent even though I stated earlier, but that's always what I've been doing till now, judging the characters by their character. Felli did it all to impress Layfon (by itself is bad enough even if she soloed dragons) and nothing extraordinary, just job description. We were oftentimes told that she wasn't utilizing her potential.
Quote:
And as I said again, defines her character who considers people as tool just for glory.
Now that's one totally wrong interpretation of her motive. She's using her and others' powers to protect the city, the fairy and its citizens. She doesn't just use others and watches from the back, she puts herself in the thick of the battle without batting an eye. She has to make sure her platoon comes out on top of the matches so that they can make a head start in inter-city battle and prevent the city from disbanding. She needs to win but she still won't take shortcuts just for the sake of it, recall Dinn story. Her actions are as selfless as it can get, she could have said "I don't need your advice, you're just a newcomer" or some cliche lines like that. She accepted his advice right away.
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Old 2009-05-20, 12:50   Link #74
TrueKnight
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Ultramarinus
Uh, she dropped the matter the next day. What more can you expect? If the asset has a high risk of subordination, you can be better off getting rid of it. I'd say that she let it go because she considered Layfon a friend and thought he'll behave accordingly now.
No. At the start of ep 10 where Felli detected a lifeforce (goat-chan) Layfon proposed that he should be the one checking because of the potential danger from bugs. Nina flatly refused because she was still pissed and ignored the input from a veteran and was asked by Sharnid about it. Layfon later ignored her orders because he felt the threat probability was too severe.

Only at the end she accepted him with her unique conversations exchange.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Ultramarinus
As for judgment, do you recall the dialogue between the president and 1st platoon leader who also leads military? Vance proposed to move her to another squad because her potential was put to waste coupled with unmotivated bums. The president refused and threatened with veto. Now, we all know by now that the president is an excellent judge of character. He manages to bend people to his will without lifting a finger, just through arrangements. So what we can conclude from that scene is that she thinks Nina can motivate those bums and utilize their power. And voila, all we have witnessed so far didn't prove the president wrong. That's saying something about her leading capability.
No, all of them were bums. Yes that includes Felli back. All of them lack motivation where Nina failed to bring the best out of them. It changes when Layfon arrives , Layfon showed his ‘I AM HAX’ scene in ep 2. Then afterwards the squad started to grow around Layfon instead of Nina. Yes the character that grew includes Nina herself. Harley could conduct experiments on the dites, Sharnid tagging along with Layfon’s popularity, and Felli overcomes her selfishness.

It’s not Nina, it’s Layfon’s. The one thing Nina succeeded so far is to keep the top dog in check in terms of behaviour.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Ultramarinus
In this instance, his crimes aren't petty and also he can be a direct threat to the squad if he didn't change his mind.
Before the events with Nina on ep 9, Layfon already conducted ‘good’ deeds even with his survival mindset intact. Starting from ep 1 he already had this kind of ‘mindset’ but he still manage to do good as seen in ep 2, 5, 7 and 8. Nina should’ve considered this issue more thoroughly.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Ultramarinus
I'd say it served the audience to show us he cares for them as well. He just told Nina that they'd die if they went and tried to stop them, so we were presented what he already thought about the squad.
That’s interpretation or speculation, while the obvious were Layfon being motivated by the trio, which I think, represent the civilian that he should or want to protect.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Ultramarinus
I'm saying once more: Nobody knew it would be there, including Nina.
Er, okay, where she could’ve wait or fall back for a bit to wait for backup.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Ultramarinus
I'm sorry if it wasn't apparent even though I stated earlier, but that's always what I've been doing till now, judging the characters by their character.
Lol lol Okay, so you don’t like her personality eventhough she had contributions on saving tons of lives. Fine by me. 

Quote:
Originally Posted by Ultramarinus
Now that's one totally wrong interpretation of her motive. She's using her and others' powers to protect the city, the fairy and its citizens. She doesn't just use others and watches from the back, she puts herself in the thick of the battle without batting an eye. She has to make sure her platoon comes out on top of the matches so that they can make a head start in inter-city battle and prevent the city from disbanding. She needs to win but she still won't take shortcuts just for the sake of it, recall Dinn story. Her actions are as selfless as it can get, she could have said "I don't need your advice, you're just a newcomer" or some cliche lines like that. She accepted his advice right away.
Even at the cost of his friends, that’s what the early part ep 16 shown us. Yes, she’s a paladin that willing to sacrifice herself for a greater good, but in doing so she’s willing to not consider the well being of his friends, but rather treat them as an asset to achieve for victory.
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Old 2009-05-20, 13:25   Link #75
willyvereb
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Quote:
Originally Posted by TrueKnight View Post
Before the events with Nina on ep 9, Layfon already conducted ‘good’ deeds even with his survival mindset intact. Starting from ep 1 he already had this kind of ‘mindset’ but he still manage to do good as seen in ep 2, 5, 7 and 8. Nina should’ve considered this issue more thoroughly.
It's easy with clear mind...Nina was too occupied to think about that...not to mention her anger about the situation. We(with clear heads and more information) can't judge people who's IN the situation and they can't think as clearly as us because of that.
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Originally Posted by TrueKnight View Post
No, all of them were bums. Yes that includes Felli back. All of them lack motivation where Nina failed to bring the best out of them. It changes when Layfon arrives , Layfon showed his ‘I AM HAX’ scene in ep 2. Then afterwards the squad started to grow around Layfon instead of Nina. Yes the character that grew includes Nina herself. Harley could conduct experiments on the dites, Sharnid tagging along with Layfon’s popularity, and Felli overcomes her selfishness.
Actually the platoon just formed if i remember well and Nina managed to convince that lazy Sharnid to join her platoon. So Sharnid and Felli officially members only a short time ago.The 16th platoon's captain's reactions clearly indicates that. So actually it was both Nina's and Layfon's(uncanny) accomplishment.Without Nina's organisation the cooperation of the platoon stays at the level of ep 6(where they lost because Layfon was tired and injured) and Layfon may have died at ep 7(despite Felli's great support). Layfon only convinced Nina and gave more room for the platoon to improve.

Quote:
Originally Posted by TrueKnight View Post
That’s interpretation or speculation, while the obvious were Layfon being motivated by the trio, which I think, represent the civilian that he should or want to protect.
I agree with that.


Quote:
Originally Posted by TrueKnight View Post
Lol lol Okay, so you don’t like her personality eventhough she had contributions on saving tons of lives. Fine by me. 
Sorry, but it's a pretty screwed up logic to think somone isn't hatable if he/she saves lives. Someone's personality does a lot with it. If it's or a part of it unlikable for somone then he/she may hates that person.

Quote:
Originally Posted by TrueKnight View Post
Even at the cost of his friends, that’s what the early part ep 16 shown us. Yes, she’s a paladin that willing to sacrifice herself for a greater good, but in doing so she’s willing to not consider the well being of his friends, but rather treat them as an asset to achieve for victory.
Even at the cost of his friends? You obviously misses something about her. She rushed out recklessly and did everything she could by herself in the past because she didn't want anyone to get hurt. She's willing to burden herself with every weight even if it kills her. Layfon became the first person she could and must lean on. That's the main reason she thought about the success of inter-platoon match at first when she saw Layfon injured. And she hates herself for it. The Nina you draw totaly other than actually is in the anime. You draw a selfish, glory-seeking, manipulative woman. Now that's what Nina tries to never become!

Last edited by willyvereb; 2009-05-20 at 13:51.
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Old 2009-05-20, 13:44   Link #76
Ultramarinus
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Quote:
Originally Posted by TrueKnight View Post
No. At the start of ep 10 where Felli detected a lifeforce (goat-chan) Layfon proposed that he should be the one checking because of the potential danger from bugs. Nina flatly refused because she was still pissed and ignored the input from a veteran and was asked by Sharnid about it. Layfon later ignored her orders because he felt the threat probability was too severe.

Only at the end she accepted him with her unique conversations exchange.
Gorneo proposed going there to investigate, Nina agreed. Layton butted in, pointing out to danger. But you must recall that it was their duty to make a survey of the city. When they went back, what would they tell to the president? "We saw life signs and chickened out, we have no idea what it is"? Sharnid just says "is it ok?". He makes no comment. Layton head rushes into the place when Felli detects, Nina just tells him to wait, a normal response.

Oh and later on, Felli speaks her mind about him trying to conceal his actions as selfish to others but actually cares. There ya go, one point for Felli. So Nina realized it was like that.
Quote:
No, all of them were bums. Yes that includes Felli back. All of them lack motivation where Nina failed to bring the best out of them. It changes when Layfon arrives , Layfon showed his ‘I AM HAX’ scene in ep 2. Then afterwards the squad started to grow around Layfon instead of Nina. Yes the character that grew includes Nina herself. Harley could conduct experiments on the dites, Sharnid tagging along with Layfon’s popularity, and Felli overcomes her selfishness.

It’s not Nina, it’s Layfon’s. The one thing Nina succeeded so far is to keep the top dog in check in terms of behaviour.
Layfon himself was an unmotivated bum, he first shows his god-mode because he witnesses Nina getting overwhelmed by the opposition even though she doesn't give up. Later on ep 5 it was similar. As Layfon progressed, Felli had to follow suit. Sharnid then goes "what the hell, I'll keep up to look cool". Harley was already looking for work to do. The president may have expected such a chain reaction. Layfon by himself would disguise himself as a useless bum without Nina's challenges brought upon them.
Quote:
Before the events with Nina on ep 9, Layfon already conducted ‘good’ deeds even with his survival mindset intact. Starting from ep 1 he already had this kind of ‘mindset’ but he still manage to do good as seen in ep 2, 5, 7 and 8. Nina should’ve considered this issue more thoroughly.
Then you should go check their conversation in ep 9 again, he makes this "I AM EVIL!!!" face while he states he has no regrets. Nina couldn't see through his deceit but she's not the only one.
Quote:
That’s interpretation or speculation, while the obvious were Layfon being motivated by the trio, which I think, represent the civilian that he should or want to protect.
In any case, Nina confronts him like that and he wouldn't have to see the empty streets and think "a reason to fight.." to himself if Nina said "I'm a platoon commander but hell yea, let's go hide like wussies". That's for sure.
Quote:
Er, okay, where she could’ve wait or fall back for a bit to wait for backup.
You know how much she cares about Czellni, she loves her like a little sister. It's understandable that she got emotional.
Quote:
Lol lol Okay, so you don’t like her personality eventhough she had contributions on saving tons of lives. Fine by me.
I don't deny what she did but she should have done those contributions as her job in any case. Everyone else did as much or more compared to their capability. I don't like her motivation and intention, that's all.
Quote:
Even at the cost of his friends, that’s what the early part ep 16 shown us. Yes, she’s a paladin that willing to sacrifice herself for a greater good, but in doing so she’s willing to not consider the well being of his friends, but rather treat them as an asset to achieve for victory.
Once more I have to repeat: They're not high-schoolers in Tokyo. They belong to military platoons which are the city's defense against outside threats. And I told about Nina's objective to secure a mine in inter-city match. Loss means the city is gone, Czellni dies as well. She's the commander of her squad and befriending her inferiors won't mean that she'll go easy on them. Recall Sgt Hartman from Full Metal Jacket? She gotta play that role for them even if they're friends.
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Old 2009-05-20, 14:11   Link #77
TrueKnight
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@ wilivereb:

- She lacks cool headedness.
- The platoon improves mostly, because of Layfon. She was included on that improvement. That’s my whole point
- ok.
- ok, to each on his own then; and

Quote:
You draw a selfish, glory-seeking, manipulative woman. Now that's what Nina tries to never become!
Her goal was to make her team to reach top spot, she relied on Layfon solely for his powers. Those traits were there you know. Right now she’s at a transition period.

Now then,

Quote:
Originally Posted by Ultramarinus
Nina agreed. Layton butted in, pointing out to danger.
Actually, Layfon proposed Nina to used Felli’s forte to further check the city’s premises, if there are dangers, he’ll immediately dispose them. This was what Nina refused. To suppress a potential danger. And luckily Layfon went in alone to further diss out the goat.


Quote:
Originally Posted by Ultramarinus
Layfon himself was an unmotivated bum, he first shows his god-mode because he witnesses Nina getting overwhelmed by the opposition even though she doesn't give up. Later on ep 5 it was similar. As Layfon progressed, Felli had to follow suit. Sharnid then goes "what the hell, I'll keep up to look cool". Harley was already looking for work to do. The president may have expected such a chain reaction.
Yes Layfon is the primary driver and then Nina went emo mode while the others grow.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Ultramarinus
Layfon by himself would disguise himself as a useless bum without Nina's challenges brought upon them.
He went god-mode to safe a half to death beaten Nina, and later to save his trio friends in ep 5.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Ultramarinus
Then you should go check their conversation in ep 9 again, he makes this "I AM EVIL!!!" face while he states he has no regrets. Nina couldn't see through his deceit but she's not the only one.
I’m not disputing that particular fact, I merely pointed out his past merits from ep 1 until ep 7, of which he already had his “I AM EVILL!!” principal but still manage to save Zuellni’s and the platoons. That showed who he really is in terms of survival.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Ultramarines
In any case, Nina confronts him like that and he wouldn't have to see the empty streets and think "a reason to fight.." to himself if Nina said "I'm a platoon commander but hell yea, let's go hide like wussies". That's for sure.
Yes, which he did. Only after he discovers the silence of the city he remembered his trio friends which bring back his motivations to fight.

Quote:
You know how much she cares about Czellni, she loves her like a little sister. It's understandable that she got emotional.
I guess so, even though he views Layfon otherwise, as a weapon that is (ep 16). In terms of value Zuellni is a city’s generator supporting thousands of civilians and of course she couldn’t view Layfon as the same.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Ultramarinus
I don't deny what she did but she should have done those contributions as her job in any case. Everyone else did as much or more compared to their capability. I don't like her motivation and intention, that's all.
k.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Ultramarinus
Once more I have to repeat: They're not high-schoolers in Tokyo. They belong to military platoons which are the city's defense against outside threats. And I told about Nina's objective to secure a mine in inter-city match. Loss means the city is gone, Czellni dies as well. She's the commander of her squad and befriending her inferiors won't mean that she'll go easy on them. Recall Sgt Hartman from Full Metal Jacket? She gotta play that role for them even if they're friends.
Welcome to military. Where friends are tools even for Nina.
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Old 2009-05-20, 14:39   Link #78
Ultramarinus
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Originally Posted by TrueKnight View Post
Actually, Layfon proposed Nina to used Felli’s forte to further check the city’s premises, if there are dangers, he’ll immediately dispose them. This was what Nina refused. To suppress a potential danger. And luckily Layfon went in alone to further diss out the goat.
Felli herself said that she couldn't discern what it is, that's why Gorneo proposed surveying and Nina agreed.
Quote:
Yes Layfon is the primary driver and then Nina went emo mode while the others grow.
Hmm? Care to elaborate?
Quote:
He went god-mode to safe a half to death beaten Nina, and later to save his trio friends in ep 5.
He was actively trying to blend into the surroundings and not attract attention from day 1, he awakens because of Nina's constant stimulative efforts. Be it during matches or monster attack.
Quote:
I’m not disputing that particular fact, I merely pointed out his past merits from ep 1 until ep 7, of which he already had his “I AM EVILL!!” principal but still manage to save Zuellni’s and the platoons. That showed who he really is in terms of survival.
Alright, so everyone isn't a lie detector. It's not just Nina who gets deceived after all. But she had to confront him due to her responsibility as her superior.
Quote:
Yes, which he did. Only after he discovers the silence of the city he remembered his trio friends which bring back his motivations to fight.
So Nina was right to refuse his proposal, I see that we came to an agreement there.
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I guess so, even though he views Layfon otherwise, as a weapon that is (ep 16). In terms of value Zuellni is a city’s generator supporting thousands of civilians and of course she couldn’t view Layfon as the same.
Uh, apples and oranges there. He got admitted into hospital and they're told he'll undergo an operation and recover. Czellni is actively threatened by something nearby.
Quote:
Welcome to military. Where friends are tools even for Nina.
They're not just friends, but also superiors and their subordinates. I don't see how you can refuse something like that.
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Old 2009-05-20, 15:04   Link #79
TrueKnight
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Ultramarinus
Felli herself said that she couldn't discern what it is, that's why Gorneo proposed surveying and Nina agreed.
Geez, Right after Gorneo proposed Layfon interfered insisting Felli should further check the premises and should there are hostiles he’d immediately dispose it. Nina refused Layfon’s offer and follow Gorneo’s advice even though Layfon mentioned that there’s a possibility of crazy monster running loose. Please watch the scene.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Ultramarinus
Hmm? Care to elaborate?
What I mean Nina wasn’t the one thats responsible in developing squad 17 as character. If Layfon hadn’t showed up they would remain as bums. After Layfon went hax she just goes jealous over her subordinate. A fine example indeed.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Ultramarinus
He was actively trying to blend into the surroundings and not attract attention from day 1, he awakens because of Nina's constant stimulative efforts. Be it during matches or monster attack.
No, he stayed reluctant even after Nina’s aggressive motivations. He awakens mostly because (i) Nina was half beaten to death in ep 2; and (ii) he thought of his girl-friends trio.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Ultramarinus
Alright, so everyone isn't a lie detector. It's not just Nina who gets deceived after all.
Yes, but guess what? They’re still alive, Zuellni and the squad that is. Because of who I wonder? The ‘evil’ guy.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Ultramarinus
But she had to confront him due to her responsibility as her superior.
And aggressively attacked his principal despite him having saved Zuellni twice.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Ultramarinus
So Nina was right to refuse his proposal, I see that we came to an agreement there.
If you mean that the thing that caused Layfon to fight were his trio friends instead of her. Then yes.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Ultramarinus
Uh, apples and oranges there. He got admitted into hospital and they're told he'll undergo an operation and recover. Czellni is actively threatened by something nearby.
Yeah your right. Too bad she attacked the Haikizoku head on instead of thinking strategy though.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Ultramarinus
They're not just friends, but also superiors and their subordinates. I don't see how you can refuse something like that.
Yeah, too bad.
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Old 2009-05-20, 15:53   Link #80
Slick_rick
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Geez, Right after Gorneo proposed Layfon interfered insisting Felli should further check the premises and should there are hostiles he’d immediately dispose it. Nina refused Layfon’s offer and follow Gorneo’s advice even though Layfon mentioned that there’s a possibility of crazy monster running loose. Please watch the scene.
At the time Nina certainly had reasons to doubt Layfon's motives so I assume her not putting the entire success and failure of the mission in his hands who be a fairly prudent move. Lets cut the pretense. The reason you criticize Nina isn't because she was unjustifiably worried but because the one she doubted was Layfon. We all know in Regios doubting Layfon is akin to sacrilege to some.


Quote:
Yes, but guess what? They’re still alive, Zuellni and the squad that is. Because of who I wonder? The ‘evil’ guy.
How was Nina suppose to know this? Does she have to put everything on blind faith? What if he had turned out to be a bad guy? Wouldn't you criticize her for not realizing he was? Seems like Nina is playing with a double-edged sword in your mind.



Quote:
And aggressively attacked his principal despite him having saved Zuellni twice.
I don't know what having saved Zuellni has to do with her not liking his principals. Sure, if Hitler saved my life I'd be thankful but I doubt you'd be seeing me telling him anything other than his ideals are completely wrong. Layfon certainly isn't Hitler but neither I nor Nina believe that doing whatever it takes to survive an ideal worthy of praise but one certainly to be wary of someone who thinks like that.



Quote:
If you mean that the thing that caused Layfon to fight were his trio friends instead of her. Then yes.
It was her words that made him think of them. You seem to want to sidestep that fact.


Quote:
Yeah your right. Too bad she attacked the Haikizoku head on instead of thinking strategy though.
Layfon when confronted by the Haikizoku attacked head on too. He was just much stronger than Nina. Does using your brain not apply to Layfon either then? Nina like Layfon relies on what she knows best. I don't know what else you expect for her in that situation.
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