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Old 2009-05-24, 01:15   Link #41
Vexx
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To some extent, the incident was simply a request for the government to do their job properly... it was really fairly spontaneous (group gathering for the passing away of a popular leader) and spur-of-the-moment planning. They really didn't think the government would send in official thugs (which points more to their naivety).
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Old 2009-05-24, 01:23   Link #42
Claies
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Quote:
Originally Posted by SaintessHeart View Post
China, on the other hand :

1. Has phased out most of its old Soviet-era fighters and replaced most of them with J-9s, a third generation fighter (A-4 Skyhawk types, with proper upgrades it can match 4th-gen fighters due to its manuverability).

2. Is slated to replace their Type 63s completely with QBZ-03/56s by 2010-2011.

3. Has outdated T-72s mods, but has alot of them.

4. Has immature NV technology, ill-equipped for CBRE, but has excellent troop training (they are significantly fitter than the US Spec Ops troops!)
I'm going to need sources for #4. I've PM'd you on the mistakes you've made for 1 and 2.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Shadow Minato View Post
Isn't the Tiananmen Incident merely a failed rebellion attempt? And that it was caused by poor coordination and horrid strategies that don't even make senses?
Rebellion? Such strong words. I would rather call it "a whole lot of people lobbying the government which got scared and sent soldiers down the square." Too many people are focusing on June 3-5 and not on what happened starting from April 15.

Watch the video playlist on the first page. All of it.

Quote:
Originally Posted by yezhanquan View Post
For something different, I point everyone to this rather famous pic of Zhao Ziyang. If I'm not wrong, it was the last photo of him being seen in public.
http://web.uncg.edu/dcl/courses/chin...Unit2/zhao.jpg

However, today's attention is not him, but on the rather stern looking man at the extreme right (with the pressed lips). You might recognise him as...

http://www.nodulo.org/ec/2007/img/n069p15c.jpg

The current Chinese PM, Mr Wen Jiabao.
Indeed. You may also hear that Wen has been called the People's Premier for his populist touch. So far he's been dodging everything about Zhao, but one can easily speculate that he'd want to make his thoughts known at some point. It'd be way too sad for him to carry that to his grave.

Quote:
Now, I'm not a top expert on the CCP leaders, but not all the top leaders of the Chinese Politburo are Stalinists. They may be hardliners, but the organisation is still seen as Leninist by many observers.

Also, I must stress again that Mao is not the whole CCP leadership. He may have dominated the Party in his later years, but in the early years, other top leaders were also very prominent.
China started veering off of Stalinism early on... by the late 50s they were ideologically divided. See Sino-Soviet split.
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Old 2009-05-24, 01:32   Link #43
Vexx
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"Harmony" seems to be the driving word. A sense of order that trumps all else (even grieving relatives after incidents and disasters). Unfortunately, that button is pressed so hard that it means they're not addressing systemic problems of greed and corruption amongst their mid-level and local officials.
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Old 2009-05-24, 01:40   Link #44
Kylaran
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Originally Posted by Lathdrinor View Post
As for superpower, I don't think there will be another superpower like the US, at least not in the near future. Economically, both India and China might rise to become giants, but militarily, they don't and won't have the same sort of dominance European empires and the US had for the last five hundred or so years. They'll be able to throw their weight around, to be sure, but subjugate the globe, probably not.
The period of global empires and imperialism is rapidly fading with the modern growth in technology; China might not become the superpower in that sense, but it doesn't mean that it won't become a superpower capable of influencing the world. I don't even think of the U.S. as following the typical model of imperialism - its influence is powered by its culture and economy, and I think that's what China will have in the future.

And, to tie it back to the topic, I think the amount of political dissent in China remains among intellectuals. Yes, you have people who are aware that their government may not provide as much "freedom" as other countries in the general populace, but there are people struggling to make ends meet for their families, and China's continued growth economically will be of the utmost importance.
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Old 2009-05-24, 01:57   Link #45
risingstar3110
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Originally Posted by LeoXiao View Post
Making some economic reforms and killing thousands of people who are just asking for some freedom of thought are two different things. It's not like the CCP had to do both; its just that doing both was more convenient for holding on to absolute power. The CCP was only going to concede what it really had to in order to survive, and that was domestic economic dominion. Even though China might be more successful today if more political freedom had been allowed, it might have reduced the CCP's power beyond an acceptable point and so therefore the June 4th event was needed to ensure its grip on power.

It's somewhat annoying when people don't think clearly and assume that CCP=China.
Well, it's hard for ppl to not link China and CCP(its government) together if you means CCP does not represent Chinese people. But then if you means the existence of Republic of China, then it still easier to call one China, another Taiwan than PRC and ROC.
If it's annoying for you seeing people call CCP=China. Then please explain it more so we can avoid that in future discussion


Back to the main point, I understand what you say perfectly.
But all that "even though China might be more successful today if more political freedom had been allowed" was just all part of theory/assumption since it didn't happen or hasn't happened yet. However the degrade within Russian society in such a "political freedom"(whether it's a fail version or not) in the same timeline really give CCP a brilliant propaganda to use, aren't they?

Image a young Chinese discovered the Tiananmen incident, but think that if the army didn't rush up, they would have followed the Russian step. Of course by then he will think: what CCP did was justified. He would even think that the government gave out "hard but precise" decision when sacrificing the "selfish" requests of some youngster and save their nation (or something like that).
People tend to simplify the problem and relate it to similar case whether they are not sure about something. It's normal in politic
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Old 2009-05-24, 02:28   Link #46
Tri-ring
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The only beef I have with PRC is the aftermath of Tiananmen.
This is my personal opinion but, I believe CCP in order to deflect further riots from the younger generation, intensified the anti-Japan sentiment education which continues to this day resulting to the present hostility towards Japan.

I know there were sentiments against Japan before the 90's but nothing at the same level we see now.

Japan provided about 60% of the entire ODA mainly in low interest loans towards PRC which was instrumental in modernization of present PRC but not many knew this fact until recently.

NO I am not asking for armful of gratitude nor a Christmas card but can't the general populous of mainland China simmer down and stop burning Japanese flags. I recently read about a mother and daughter visiting a college in China during the Cherry blossom season wearing a Kimono only to be driven away by angry students of that college yelling names. It's wrong, annoying and frightful at the same time sending the wrong message in the name of citizenship diplomacy.
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Old 2009-05-24, 03:38   Link #47
yezhanquan
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Originally Posted by Claies View Post

Indeed. You may also hear that Wen has been called the People's Premier for his populist touch. So far he's been dodging everything about Zhao, but one can easily speculate that he'd want to make his thoughts known at some point. It'd be way too sad for him to carry that to his grave.


China started veering off of Stalinism early on... by the late 50s they were ideologically divided. See Sino-Soviet split.
Personally, I think PM Wen had the thought that he could only express his thoughts on this in a roundabout way. He saw at first hand how Mr Zhao was ganged-upon, despite him being in the right about some things.

I thought it was the USSR who deviated from Stalinism under Khrushchev, which drew Mao's ire. While he respected Stalin, after Stalin's death, he thought that he, and China, should be the new standard bearer of communism.
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Last edited by yezhanquan; 2009-05-24 at 03:56.
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Old 2009-05-24, 07:59   Link #48
SaintessHeart
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Originally Posted by Vexx View Post
"Harmony" seems to be the driving word. A sense of order that trumps all else (even grieving relatives after incidents and disasters). Unfortunately, that button is pressed so hard that it means they're not addressing systemic problems of greed and corruption amongst their mid-level and local officials.
Harmony is an OVERUSED word in there. And they become nothing more than river crabs.

Take a look at this site

http://www.beijingforum.org/en/Index.asp

and read this

http://www.beijingforum.org/en/ShowA...?ArticleID=982

To me, it screams of propaganda and cover-up. No wonder the Chinese netizens' "grass mud horse to the river crabs".

P.S For those of you who are still judging China as a hive-mind state, or still don't understand what I am referring to, look at this :

Spoiler for NSFW : Coarse Language:
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Old 2009-05-24, 08:24   Link #49
Jazzrat
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Originally Posted by Tri-ring View Post
The only beef I have with PRC is the aftermath of Tiananmen.
This is my personal opinion but, I believe CCP in order to deflect further riots from the younger generation, intensified the anti-Japan sentiment education which continues to this day resulting to the present hostility towards Japan.

I know there were sentiments against Japan before the 90's but nothing at the same level we see now.

Japan provided about 60% of the entire ODA mainly in low interest loans towards PRC which was instrumental in modernization of present PRC but not many knew this fact until recently.

NO I am not asking for armful of gratitude nor a Christmas card but can't the general populous of mainland China simmer down and stop burning Japanese flags. I recently read about a mother and daughter visiting a college in China during the Cherry blossom season wearing a Kimono only to be driven away by angry students of that college yelling names. It's wrong, annoying and frightful at the same time sending the wrong message in the name of citizenship diplomacy.
This is due to the rise of an ultranationalistic faction comprised of the young chinese. Many who are now high on the rise and success of their country while grew up on CCP's propaganda.

Unfortunately, Japan and it's bloody history during the WW2 made them a perfect target. Other countries have been the target of their scorn as well especially during the Olympic where many country have criticized CCP over their handling of the Tibet situation and the nationalist lash back on them.
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Old 2009-05-24, 08:32   Link #50
yezhanquan
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Lest we forget, China is slightly smaller than the USA, but has at least 3 times the population, scattered along the length and breath of this nation. Throughout its history, there were monarchs who tried to dictate ideology; all failed in the end, because it simply cannot be done. Behind closed doors, who knows what the people are really up to.
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Old 2009-05-24, 09:07   Link #51
Claies
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Originally Posted by yezhanquan View Post
Personally, I think PM Wen had the thought that he could only express his thoughts on this in a roundabout way. He saw at first hand how Mr Zhao was ganged-upon, despite him being in the right about some things.

I thought it was the USSR who deviated from Stalinism under Khrushchev, which drew Mao's ire. While he respected Stalin, after Stalin's death, he thought that he, and China, should be the new standard bearer of communism.
Yes, I forgot about the Khrushchev part. My mistake.
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Old 2009-05-24, 18:01   Link #52
Shadow Kira01
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Originally Posted by Tri-ring View Post
The only beef I have with PRC is the aftermath of Tiananmen.
This is my personal opinion but, I believe CCP in order to deflect further riots from the younger generation, intensified the anti-Japan sentiment education which continues to this day resulting to the present hostility towards Japan.

I know there were sentiments against Japan before the 90's but nothing at the same level we see now.

Japan provided about 60% of the entire ODA mainly in low interest loans towards PRC which was instrumental in modernization of present PRC but not many knew this fact until recently.

NO I am not asking for armful of gratitude nor a Christmas card but can't the general populous of mainland China simmer down and stop burning Japanese flags. I recently read about a mother and daughter visiting a college in China during the Cherry blossom season wearing a Kimono only to be driven away by angry students of that college yelling names. It's wrong, annoying and frightful at the same time sending the wrong message in the name of citizenship diplomacy.
The fact is that there really is not much of a difference between PRC and ROC as that they are one and the same. Or the least to say, I don't see them any different. Its just China using different names to deceive the world into believing so.

In terms of providing low interest loans towards the PRC, I believe that their people are taking it the wrong way, as though we owe them money even though it is done out of goodwill. Unfortunately, these people are pretty much blinded by their own ambitions and anger to not see it as such and as otherwise. Personally, I think the government should stop handing out low interest loans as that it doesn't benefit the nation any better at all. First of all, people in China are getting the wrong idea of the intention of these low-interest loan. Secondly, they are not being very honest and transparent of their military intentions and expansions. Thus, it makes absolutely no sense as to why the government is still being so kind when PRC is not just not an ally but not even a friendly nation to begin with. I find it somewhat strange..

Quote:
Originally Posted by Claies View Post
Rebellion? Such strong words. I would rather call it "a whole lot of people lobbying the government which got scared and sent soldiers down the square." Too many people are focusing on June 3-5 and not on what happened starting from April 15.

Watch the video playlist on the first page. All of it.
Video playlist? I rather not.. It doesn't interest me even the slightest.

Perhaps, it wasn't a rebellion but merely a bunch of kids thinking of negotiating with the Oda clan as a merely a game or drama in which the results were unexpected in their case but that was only a matter of foolishness. In fact, it is possibly that the ones who started this foolishness wasn't taking it very seriously which was why they all got killed so quickly. If they had taken the issue seriously, they would had sent better representatives.

In fact, if the remnants of the foolish victims of tyranny had taken it more seriously, they had a perfect opportunity during the Olympics in which the world started a mass movement that was picking up quite a pace and since China had on their end had taken the steps that they usually do made it a plus on the ones performing the mass movement. Tibet was under an invasion in which people were slaughtered by rogues disguising as soldiers of justice, while the Uyghur region was also in quite a fix in which a revolt broke out. At the same time, the ordinary civilians such as farmers who had their lands taken away and not getting compensated at all, adding to the roster would be the non-profit organization Falun Gong who also have a huge number of members could probably stir some real deal up. If only they were actually as serious as they claim and that they would fight alongside each other with one goal and objective, they would have already succeeded and PRC would no longer exist this day. Thus, these people who are seeking the support and aid from other nations do not deserve any because they toss away a perfect opportunity and are not the slightest serious about it at all. Why should the world even care about these fools? Why should the world provide financial support to them?

More importantly, if these fools had actually seized the opportunity to create a new nation, a democratic one. I am sure regional stability would definitely be ensured and that the global economic crisis would also be avoided since one of the major factors of the problem wouldn't even exist in the first place. North Korea would also not dare to defy peace and prosperity, stirring up some serious issues right now. In fact, North Korea wouldn't even dare go back on their words of closing down Yongbyon, stopping all missile and nuclear activities. The world will be a lot more peaceful.
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Old 2009-05-24, 19:35   Link #53
yezhanquan
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Revolutions are not picnics. Trotsky and Mao said as much. Things can and will happen after every revolution. Do not seek to judge so quickly.
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Old 2009-05-25, 00:23   Link #54
Claies
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Originally Posted by Shadow Minato View Post
Video playlist? I rather not.. It doesn't interest me even the slightest.

*snip*
If you refuse to see what happened, then your argument has no value. That is genuine footage over the course of 8 weeks from gathering to massacre.

Nobody has a clear cut idea about "what happens after" when these things begin. They go in over their heads, and by the time the crap hits the fan it'd be too late to even wish they'd done better. I'd agree with you that this is why you're supposed to go the whole nine yards with these things so that nobody gets to control what the "what happens after" turns out to be.

Also, the Olympics had the popular support. Nobody's going to listen to anything else. 2008 was the one and only time China will probably ever get the Olympics, and they'll hear no less of it. Try getting as far as mentioning a rebellion.

You have no idea how people regulate communications in China, do you? It's near impossible to get a gathering of more than a few dozen people without requiring a permit, which they'll deny, and there's always the Great Firewall of China. It doesn't just block. It's supposed to monitor. That's the part that they don't tell you. Also, 1.5 million internal police troops. Have fun.

Put away your Zero avatar. I'm not sure you're trolling or not by the end of that post, because your wishes are getting delusional. "Stir some real deal up"? Talk to me again when you have a detailed, timed plan to get over 300 million people to support you, and destroy the Chinese army at the same time. You don't get Knightmares.
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Old 2009-05-25, 04:52   Link #55
SaintessHeart
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Originally Posted by Claies View Post
tl;dr
Chill out man. He might have his reasons for not wanting to see such. Sometimes opinions do not need to come supported because it makes logic all by itself, we just have to find that logic.

Regarding the permits and domestic surveillance you have mentioned, it is possible to evade all of the "watchers", just have to find a way. Otherwise, how do you think is it possible to gather enough people to be massacred at Tiananmen anyway? Who knows, they might be even passing around messages in cakes.

I guess the massacre could be an analogous to a really pissed and angry parent that killed his/her own child. Nobody wants to happen but circumstances dictate so. Of course, the parent would try to deny it all to both himself and others, but deep inside he/she is guilty of the crime.

I am not sure about others, but I feel that we should just give the credit for the guilt, forget about it, and move on. IF the members of CCP does feel any at all (I know the tank commander did. He refused to steamroll that guy).
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Old 2009-05-25, 05:34   Link #56
Jazzrat
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Every country has their own skeleton in the closet. While it is a terrible event, i think people are overly harsh on it. Riots that turned violent are dime a dozen all over the world and history. The current leaders of China belongs to the old guards that still believe they can control everything however, the upcoming generation will be much different and more liberal, bred on the fruits of capitalism.

In any case, the records of this event is merely tip of the iceberg of the atrocities that have occured in China's dark age. Bet there's plenty more prior to the age of digital communication that have been hidden by the CCP.

Any reform in China will occur gradually and internally. There are many chinese students pursuing their education abroad and with their return to China (or not), they will bring ideas and culture. China might be able to censor the internet now but they won't be able to keep it up forever without closing it's own border.

footnote, the speech given by Zhao Ziyang to the students during the incident is quite something. Too bad the whole
still turned ugly.
Spoiler for to save space:
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Old 2009-05-25, 06:42   Link #57
Thingle
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Thumbs down

Quote:
Originally Posted by Jazzrat View Post
Every country has their own skeleton in the closet. While it is a terrible event, i think people are overly harsh on it. Riots that turned violent are dime a dozen all over the world and history. The current leaders of China belongs to the old guards that still believe they can control everything however, the upcoming generation will be much different and more liberal, bred on the fruits of capitalism.


[/SPOILER]
See. The CPC is still stuck to grooming its future leaders while denying the people to vote whoever they want... as if their ideology is the only valid one.

On another note, what keeps "Socialism with Chinese characteristics" alive and well is not its inherent value, but the political force and the legal structures supporting it.
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Old 2009-05-25, 07:52   Link #58
Jazzrat
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See. The CPC is still stuck to grooming its future leaders while denying the people to vote whoever they want... as if their ideology is the only valid one.
Sigh, you do understand you are pushing your ideals on others as if it's the only valid one as well?

Democracy without proper implementation and people's empowerment are merely doomed to failure and corruption.

It only comes after the people are fed, clothed and educated. Despite all their vast improvement in economy, many are still living in poverty let alone educated.
However, the drive for economy and technology will push the government to educate it's people to provide the required manpower. This in turn empowers the people which in my opinion will drive the demand for democracy. Afterall, we are greedy, with our basic need provided, we will ask for more.

China today is a lot more receptive to the outside world than it is before. While it may or may not embrace democracy in the future, it's certainly improving on the people's welfare as a whole. While not perfect, at the very least they are no longer in the dark age.
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Old 2009-05-25, 08:14   Link #59
Thingle
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Originally Posted by Jazzrat View Post

at the very least they are no longer in the dark age.
Tell that to the Falun Gong, to those who are killed so that someone can sell their organs, the dissident bloggers and those who are jailed in secret detention camps in the big cities, dude.
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Old 2009-05-25, 08:30   Link #60
yezhanquan
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1 a tragedy, a million a statistic is how I see it. China can do with less people, but it's like a tumour. After all the deaths the last century threw at this nation, the numbers just keep on growing.
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