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Old 2009-05-25, 08:31   Link #61
Thingle
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This is NOT how to be 21st century.
http://english.aljazeera.net/news/as...494521278.html
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Old 2009-05-25, 08:32   Link #62
Tri-ring
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My opinion is that, bringing democracy in full form into PRC at once will result to collapse of PRC as an unified state.
The diffenece in personal income between inner states and seaside cities are too big with redistribution of wealth impossible in a manner that all will agree upon.
Most of the collected taxation from the rich sealand population will end up developing infrastructure in the inland area to bring balance but it will be seen by the people who paid most tax vastly misrepresented that will escalate into a social conflict between the two regions.
PRC needs to educate democracy first to the general populous but in itself hold some danger since if people starts demanding rights without acceptance of obligations first, then again it will result to social turmoil.
As a society everyone needs to understand that certain sacrifice will be asked to an individual for the greater good whether it be socialistic or democratic.
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Old 2009-05-25, 08:34   Link #63
Thingle
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Originally Posted by Tri-ring View Post
PRC needs to educate democracy first to the general populous but in itself hold some danger since if people starts demanding rights without acceptance of obligations first, then again it will result to social turmoil.
As a society everyone needs to understand that certain sacrifice will be asked to an individual for the greater good whether it be socialistic or democratic.
Haven't their thousands of years of Confucian culture hammered down the idea of obligation yet? If anything, that's the least of their problems.
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Old 2009-05-25, 08:36   Link #64
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Originally Posted by Thingle View Post
Tell that to the Falun Gong, to those who are killed so that someone can sell their organs, the dissident bloggers and those who are jailed in secret detention camps in the big cities, dude.
Try comparing era of Mao Zedong and Cultural Revolution to present time, dude.
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Old 2009-05-25, 08:37   Link #65
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Haven't their thousands of years of Confucian culture hammered down the idea of obligation yet? If anything, that's the least of their problems.
You obviously never heard/read about the tremendous amount of Confucian bashing throught Chinese history. Also, Kong Qiu is but one philosopher. China had seen many other philosophers, and their teachings are part of the Chinese canon as well.
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Old 2009-05-25, 08:38   Link #66
Thingle
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Originally Posted by Jazzrat View Post
Try comparing era of Mao Zedong and Cultural Revolution to present time, dude.
They still do the same thing. There's no difference between "terminating" 100 million people for political reasons in the 60's and "terminating" less than 100 million people for political reasons in the present time.
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Old 2009-05-25, 08:40   Link #67
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Yes, there is. It's called "1 a tragedy, 10 million a statistic".
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Old 2009-05-25, 08:41   Link #68
Thingle
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Yes, there is. It's called "1 a tragedy, 10 million a statistic".
The problem is, it's not just 1, and at the root of it, the motive and reasons for doing the same to the 10 million are no different.


It doesn't matter if you're a mass murderer or a serial killer. You still killed.


Unless of course if you're implying that it is necessary for people to be terminated for some reason..

Last edited by Thingle; 2009-05-25 at 08:47. Reason: add
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Old 2009-05-25, 08:52   Link #69
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Nah, termination through human means is doomed to fail, unless you count deaths from "unintended" side effects. Mother Nature is much better at this. Even so, the Spanish flu looped off 0.1 billion people at the upper end of the estimates, and the numbers just came right back.
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Old 2009-05-25, 08:55   Link #70
Thingle
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Originally Posted by yezhanquan View Post
Nah, termination through human means is doomed to fail, unless you count deaths from "unintended" side effects. Mother Nature is much better at this. Even so, the Spanish flu looped off 0.1 billion people at the upper end of the estimates, and the numbers just came right back.
Well, I wasn't thinking of termination just for the sake of termination . It's more along the lines of political supression and the killings that follow.
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Old 2009-05-25, 08:56   Link #71
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Well, it's ironic that schemes that set out to exterminate as a stated objective did less well compared to other hare-brained schemes. The Great Leap Forward killed more people than the Nazi death camps ever did, although in terms of %, I think the camps won that one.
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Old 2009-05-25, 08:56   Link #72
Kylaran
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Tri-ring View Post
PRC needs to educate democracy first to the general populous but in itself hold some danger since if people starts demanding rights without acceptance of obligations first, then again it will result to social turmoil.
I would like to see a dual/multi-party system in place with proper internal checks and balances first before we go thinking the Chinese populace has been brainwashed into ignorance. But we all know that's not going to happen with the current one-party socialist system.
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Old 2009-05-25, 08:59   Link #73
Thingle
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Originally Posted by yezhanquan View Post
Well, it's ironic that schemes that set out to exterminate as a stated objective did less well compared to other hare-brained schemes. The Great Leap Forward killed more people than the Nazi death camps ever did, although in terms of %, I think the camps won that one.
Like I said, the numbers aren't as important as the motive. The Nazis pretty much killed people for a stupid reason... at least they aren't killing anymore (not counting skinheads)

Can't say the same for the commies.
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Old 2009-05-25, 09:28   Link #74
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Originally Posted by yezhanquan View Post
1 a tragedy, a million a statistic is how I see it. China can do with less people, but it's like a tumour. After all the deaths the last century threw at this nation, the numbers just keep on growing.
Aptly quoted from the man who is behind the power of Communism.

Talking about killing people, I do agree with zhanquan, but IMO man can only beat Mother Nature in a mass wipeout using the bomb. If they (or we, to be exact), do so, there will be no one left to keep track of the record of people killed.

I am not sure, but do the Chinese run gulags? I know the Cong and the NKs do (the US Army Rangers do too, but in a different sense), but I was thinking that the Chinese do run camps of some sort to "instill peace and calm upon the raging dissidents".
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Old 2009-05-25, 09:40   Link #75
Tri-ring
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Originally Posted by Kylaran View Post
I would like to see a dual/multi-party system in place with proper internal checks and balances first before we go thinking the Chinese populace has been brainwashed into ignorance. But we all know that's not going to happen with the current one-party socialist system.
You don't need a multi party check and balance system to teach fundemental principles of democracy to the public. In fact a corrupt democratic system using bribes and candy commitments without proper disclosure nor understanding by the general populous would do more harm then a sound communist system.
In fact in extreme cases, even one party nation can be considered a democracy if the majority of votes in favor.(It's an extreem hypothetical case, I know)

The main problem is ignorance of democracy by the general populous not brainwash of the general populous that is the problem at PRC.
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Old 2009-05-25, 10:13   Link #76
Claies
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Originally Posted by Thingle View Post
Haven't their thousands of years of Confucian culture hammered down the idea of obligation yet? If anything, that's the least of their problems.
Look at the businessmen and shopkeepers. All they care about is money. What obligation?
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Old 2009-05-25, 16:57   Link #77
Shadow Kira01
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Originally Posted by Jazzrat View Post
China today is a lot more receptive to the outside world than it is before. While it may or may not embrace democracy in the future, it's certainly improving on the people's welfare as a whole. While not perfect, at the very least they are no longer in the dark age.
Are you dreaming in the fairy tale world?

In fact, the number of people they are killing right exceed the ones who got slaughtered during this dark age period of them back during the Tiananmen Square.

More over, China is not receptive to the outside world at all. When the world asked China to help stop North Korea's defiance, China asks the world to show some "self-restraint" on their missile activities. And now that North Korea went ahead and tested nukes along with more missiles, China asks the world to show some "calm and cool-headed approach". Although they claim to be very kind people who listens to the feelings of others, yet they do otherwise.

During the Olympics, when journalists went to China to seek the truth on how receptive they are to the outside, some got beaten up, while others were deported. Is that a display of goodwill? I don't think so. When Tibet got invaded and people slaughtered, local Chinese cops started running around filming their own spies dressed up as Tibetan Buddhist monks and setting their own local non-Tibetan shops ablaze, then going to the world to justify their actions of massacre. Is this called a light age?

There is a non-profit organization known as the Falun Gong I had read studied in class during political science awhile back. It appears that their people are getting worse treatment than that of the Tibetans and Muslims during the Olympics. All sorts of unpleasant things occur to them on a daily basis and the numbers who fell prey to this newly reformed China of yours are somewhat countless.
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Old 2009-05-25, 19:41   Link #78
yezhanquan
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Originally Posted by SaintessHeart View Post
Aptly quoted from the man who is behind the power of Communism.

Talking about killing people, I do agree with zhanquan, but IMO man can only beat Mother Nature in a mass wipeout using the bomb. If they (or we, to be exact), do so, there will be no one left to keep track of the record of people killed.

I am not sure, but do the Chinese run gulags? I know the Cong and the NKs do (the US Army Rangers do too, but in a different sense), but I was thinking that the Chinese do run camps of some sort to "instill peace and calm upon the raging dissidents".
They did run some camps. I remember reading that Qinghai was compared to Siberia in "gulag" terms. For the most part, they're closed now.

I'll quote George Cohen of the NYT:

"The best should not be the enemy of the good. The rapid rise of China and Vietnam, accounting between them for some 20 percent of humanity, has ushered hundreds of millions of people from poverty since totalitarian Communism fell. The West is in no position to say it knows better."

Read his article here: http://www.nytimes.com/2009/05/25/op...ohen.html?_r=1
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Last edited by yezhanquan; 2009-05-25 at 20:18.
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Old 2009-05-25, 21:58   Link #79
Kylaran
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Originally Posted by Tri-ring View Post
The main problem is ignorance of democracy by the general populous not brainwash of the general populous that is the problem at PRC.
I stand by what I said because I see China as following a potentially dangerous path: unless the government is willing to make changes and change the current government system to have more constitutional safeguards against corruption, then the people that DO stand up will be targeted by the government.

You can teach democratic principles to a people as much as you want, but it doesn't change the fact that those principles could be put to use improperly at any moment in time, say, for more radical populist movements. I'm not saying that China's at a point of political instability where this is eminent, but it would be much easier to have the government relinquish its power slowly than to somehow push for more than a billion people to gain awareness of their political situation. After all, the stability inside China now is largely rooted in its economic development. We'll see significant internal pressure from an even larger majority of the public in China should the country's economic bubble burst.

As more and more Chinese are being educated (despite the fact that they don't have nearly the same amount of educational opportunities as other people in other countries), I think there will be a tendency toward protecting one's own individual rights. Let the intellectuals supporting democritization have an opportunity to take office in government. Even America had its own revolutionary aristocracy before and after the American war of independence; a large majority of the population in the colonies were divided along trade and business lines. Tories found their properties or British-supported businesses falling in danger, while others found British interference to be detrimental to home-grown businesses and previous, prosperous trade relations. The leaders of the revolution saw this as an opportunity to set into practice a government that represented their ideals, and, luckily, those men upheld their very own principles.
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Old 2009-05-26, 00:37   Link #80
Jazzrat
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Originally Posted by Shadow Minato View Post
Are you dreaming in the fairy tale world?
.....
Is this called a light age?

All sorts of unpleasant things occur to them on a daily basis and the numbers who fell prey to this newly reformed China of yours are somewhat countless.
Sure and why not? Along with India, it's one of the fastest growing economy. It's not culturally declining, in fact it's relearning it's own culture that they previously destroyed during their revolution.

Just because of it's human right's infringement does not change it's achievement in other sectors over the past years.
Stop having your views clouded by being emotional about human rights.

Just look at the global situation, all the countries that is growing rapidly have little to do with human rights. India, UAE, China, Russia... none of these countries have a good record on human rights.
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