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Old 2009-05-25, 16:54   Link #8501
bladeofdarkness
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suzaku has no choice in the matter
his geass makes him do whatever it takes to survive
fighting kallen at 100% he still couldnt beat her out right
how much chance do you think he'd have by holding back
how long before his geass took over completely

P.S
kallens a steamroller
fighting defensively against her is the LAST thing you should try to do
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Old 2009-05-25, 17:05   Link #8502
azul120
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Yeah. Suzaku could be extremely holier-than-thou and ignoble in his own ways, but over time he realized where he went wrong, and in the end repented for what he did along with Lelouch. Contrary to people who gush over one and loathe the other (they also think of various unsympathetic characters as less despicable than Lelouch when they simply aren't), I personally think they complete one another in the end. Their thoughts and interactions during the ZR and in the post-series supplemental materials released so far pretty much say it all.
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Old 2009-05-25, 17:06   Link #8503
Betteroffer
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I meant in the sense of rather than charging at her giving it his all offensively, he would focus himself on fighting defensively. This isn't to say he would hold back in any sense of the word (again, I know he literally can't), but rather that he would focus on dodging, deflecting, and countering. Everytime Kallen would come at him, he would pull back and then take swings only as counters, possibly making comments over the radio that would lead her to believe that he is feeling more pressed back than he is, in order to make her keep thinking to herself "I've got him, just a little more."

I suppose this could be explained by Suzaku's fighting style being offense based, so part of using the Geass would mean his style would have to be offensive for him to trully be at his 100%, but even with my limited combat awareness, the idea of using pull back tactics to frustrate and exhaust an enemy seems to have an automatic advantage against offensive styles unless the agressor has a signifigant advantage in skill or power, which Kallen didn't have thanks to Suzaku's Geass.
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Old 2009-05-25, 17:12   Link #8504
bladeofdarkness
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again
kallen's a steamroller
steamrollers hammer at you till your overwhelmed
and if you dont attack back and force them to defend themselves, they can do whatever they want free (trust me, its not limited to mecha combat )
the basic rule of ANY form of combat, be it martial arts, or war or even CHESS
if you dont force the enemy to be defensive, he can act as he pleases, and sooner or later he'll get you
the only way that you can play defensive ALL the time, is if your MUCH better and stronger then the enemy
and he wasnt
plus, why would suzaku act defensive
he wanted to WIN
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Old 2009-05-25, 17:30   Link #8505
Betteroffer
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The Albion was shown as able to block the SEITEN's radiation shots with its shields, and despite its superior 'specs' Suzaku's Geass was able to bridge that gap.

Most one-on-one style combat I've seen demonstrates being defensive as a means of drawing your offensive opponent to you and then manipulating them, and I've generally seen people advised to use defensive tactics and skill if they are overpowered directly, thus defense is usually smarter unless you have a sizeable advantage.

There are plenty of examples in war and Code Geass itself, where an opponent is beaten because they act offensively and this is used to lead them into an ambush (Shinjuku, Saitama, Shikine, flooding the fields in China, Mt. Fuji).

And on trying to win, Kallen's objective was to win by beating Suzaku and then stopping Lelouch. Suzaku's objective was simply not to lose, i.e. survive. As long as he didn't lose, Kallen couldn't risk diverting her attention to finding Lelouch. As long as Lelouch got control of Damocles, he could then say "Surrender or I drop a bunch of FLEIJA with the limiters removed on Japan." Again, she and the BK don't know Damocles lacked rapid fire capabilities.
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Old 2009-05-25, 17:40   Link #8506
bladeofdarkness
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the battles you mentioned are examples of drawing the enemy into a TRAP
not playing defensive
and your talking strategy
not single combat tactics
what was suzaku going to do, have her roadrunner into the side of a mountein ?

the enemy wont MAKE mistakes if you dont make them sweat
playing defensive against an enemy who can pound on you till you break isnt an option
especially when the enemy in question is every bit as good as you are and isnt likely to make any more mistakes then you are
what was suzaku going to do, fly around like a pilock while kallen crushs into him with the wings on full pinball mode and takes pot shots at his cocpit
if he can bearly fight her to a standstill while in full on geass powered attack mode
what makes you think he could afford to let HER attack him full force while he only defends and runs
eventually, she'd have gotten him, and more likely sooner then later, given the gurens specs

and he was trying to WIN the battle between them
said so himself
he wasnt trying to buy lelouch time (he couldnt know how long it would take lelouch, and lelouch didnt seem in any fucking hurry with nunnaly)
he was trying to remove his enemies, just like he said
why play around buying time at great risk to the plan when he could just take kallen out there and then
LELOUCH might care about kallen enough to want to protect her, but suzaku has not such commitment
she's in the way of ZERO-R
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Old 2009-05-25, 18:30   Link #8507
Betteroffer
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Isn't the point of a trap playing defensive until you get you enemy into a trap? Is the part where you're trying to draw the enemy into the trap not considered being defensive? (I'm not being snide, I honestly know practically nothing about military terminology beyond 'tactics' and 'strategy').

However while the examples I gave may be strategy rather than tactics, they were still examples of letting the enemy believe that they were the ones doing the pressing, they didn't seem to be sweating much until they were caught in the trap itself. The enemy can make mistakes if you let them get overconfident and careless (it's not a guarantee, but neither is the fact that they'll sweat under pressure).

As for the attacking/defending, if he kept her in a position where she had to keep coming to him then couldn't he be argued to have the advantage, since both frames seemed to posses 'pinball' speeds, even if only Kallen could do the wing-fold-shield? Keeping the enemy moving while making minimal movements yourself or something?

Once their wings were off (and possibly before), he could have theoretically used Damocles itself to elude Kallen, using the structure to block, or take a portion of her radiation blasts, missles, and possibly get her harkens stuck in walls. They ran out of energy for their weapons at the same time as things ended up. If Suzaku had been using his environment to block some of Kallens's blasts (this would constitute tactics right?) then he could have had spare power in the shields for continued use as defensive measures or bashing weapons (possibly even slashing, given that they seemed to have pointed edges).

Also, I'm not saying he had to go 100% defense and NOT strike at Kallen if he got an opening, I know he couldn't. He could shift to the offensive for small burst or as it became apporpriate to the situation.

You're right that he directly says he wants to win in the series, but I'm asking about the viability of what ifs, and he knew Kallen couldn't just be taken out like that.

(I've got to sign off here, I'll comeback to this later).
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Old 2009-05-25, 18:50   Link #8508
morbosfist
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Betteroffer View Post
Isn't the point of a trap playing defensive until you get you enemy into a trap? Is the part where you're trying to draw the enemy into the trap not considered being defensive? (I'm not being snide, I honestly know practically nothing about military terminology beyond 'tactics' and 'strategy').
It's only a trap when you have something to trap with. Suzaku only has his Knightmare and there was no trapping Kallen with just that.

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However while the examples I gave may be strategy rather than tactics, they were still examples of letting the enemy believe that they were the ones doing the pressing, they didn't seem to be sweating much until they were caught in the trap itself. The enemy can make mistakes if you let them get overconfident and careless (it's not a guarantee, but neither is the fact that they'll sweat under pressure).
As has been pointed out, that wouldn't work. Suzaku was genuinely pressed. There'd be no faking it because Kallen was on him like flies on stink the entire time.

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Originally Posted by Betteroffer View Post
As for the attacking/defending, if he kept her in a position where she had to keep coming to him then couldn't he be argued to have the advantage, since both frames seemed to posses 'pinball' speeds, even if only Kallen could do the wing-fold-shield? Keeping the enemy moving while making minimal movements yourself or something?
She advances of her own accord, not because Suzaku forces her to. He has to retreat and she closes the distance before he can catch his breath.

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Originally Posted by Betteroffer View Post
Once their wings were off (and possibly before), he could have theoretically used Damocles itself to elude Kallen, using the structure to block, or take a portion of her radiation blasts, missles, and possibly get her harkens stuck in walls. They ran out of energy for their weapons at the same time as things ended up. If Suzaku had been using his environment to block some of Kallens's blasts (this would constitute tactics right?) then he could have had spare power in the shields for continued use as defensive measures or bashing weapons (possibly even slashing, given that they seemed to have pointed edges).
They are on an unfamiliar structure and Kallen isn't one to waste attacks like that. If she fires, it'll more than likely hit. Also, Suzaku isn't that smart and blocks everything, so it's really a moot point.

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Also, I'm not saying he had to go 100% defense and NOT strike at Kallen if he got an opening, I know he couldn't. He could shift to the offensive for small burst or as it became apporpriate to the situation.

You're right that he directly says he wants to win in the series, but I'm asking about the viability of what ifs, and he knew Kallen couldn't just be taken out like that.

(I've got to sign off here, I'll comeback to this later).
To put it simply, anything less than his all and he'd be struck down. Giving Kallen freedom to attack when her offense is much greater than his is just a bad idea.
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Old 2009-05-25, 19:03   Link #8509
bladeofdarkness
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the problem with the idea is that you cant lure the enemy into a trap without SETTING one in advance
faking weakness to lure the enemy into a trap needs for there to BE a trap to lure them into
and he didnt have time to set one

i think you misunderstood what i ment by pressure
i actaully DO practice martial arts
and one of the basic practice rutines is a close combat drill called sticky hands (the hands never lose contact)
the key thing that you learn during this drill is that if you just try to AVOID the enemiy's attacks and not counter them with your own, you'll get beat very soon
becouse the enemy can focus all their effort into attacking you in more and more complex ways while all you do is react
the same goes with chess for example
the only to real make progress in your strategies is to threaten the enemy king and force the enemy to defend it
there by keeping them from attacking YOU
thats what i ment by making them sweat
if you dont apply pressure, the enemy can do what ever they want to you and your left reacting only
and eventually you WILL slip up

his ability to run is also limited by the fact that they are inside the shield
how far could he run
and for how long
the guren might be faster then the albion
in ep 18 and 24 it pulls off moves that makes the trick he used to make bismark crap himself seem like childs play
and how on earth would they have LOST the wings if he didnt try and make her lose them

in the end this whole thing is theory
we dont know what would have happened if suzaku tried playing defensive rather then try and beat her with all he had
my personal opinion (based on what limited experiance i have with fighting) is that if you play defensive against someone of equal skill to you all you are doing is giving them the edge (they can attack you full force without worrying about defending themselves)
and once you commit yourself to defense only, your not likely to have a CHANCE to attack most of the time becouse you'll need all you have to defend agaisnt the opponents full on attack

and in the end, suzaku decided to just beat her and finish it right there
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Last edited by bladeofdarkness; 2009-05-27 at 12:24.
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Old 2009-05-26, 18:41   Link #8510
Betteroffer
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Interesting to know. I've never had the pressuring thing explained to me like that, and it's always good to hear from an experienced perspective. It really adds another level to the saying "The best defense is a good offense."

This may sound like a weird/dumb/both question, but are there any books you could recommend that deal with things like general principles of tactics and strategy? Something other than 'the art of war' (I sadly have yet to read even THAT).
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Old 2009-05-26, 18:45   Link #8511
bladeofdarkness
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while its in no way a dumb question
its not one that i can answer

most of my know how comes from either actual hands on experiance and way too much history channel
for a good example of seeing how offense in the best defense even when faced with a stronger larger enemy force
i suggest reading about the six day war
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Six_Day_War
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Old 2009-05-31, 17:03   Link #8512
prototype_sky
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It was a draw since when all was said and done neither of them could continue fighting

Kallen suceeded in finally destroying lancelot but Suzaku won the war for lulu.
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Old 2009-05-31, 17:07   Link #8513
prototype_sky
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Originally Posted by bladeofdarkness View Post
again
kallen's a steamroller
steamrollers hammer at you till your overwhelmed
and if you dont attack back and force them to defend themselves, they can do whatever they want free (trust me, its not limited to mecha combat )
the basic rule of ANY form of combat, be it martial arts, or war or even CHESS
if you dont force the enemy to be defensive, he can act as he pleases, and sooner or later he'll get you
the only way that you can play defensive ALL the time, is if your MUCH better and stronger then the enemy
and he wasnt
plus, why would suzaku act defensive
he wanted to WIN
Winning wasn't his main objective at that time and you know it (Though defeating Kallen would've been a plus ).
Giving lulu a window to sieze the WMD's and surviving to finish the plan was
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Old 2009-05-31, 17:18   Link #8514
bladeofdarkness
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Winning wasn't his main objective at that time and you know it (Though defeating Kallen would've been a plus ).
that one has me scratching my head
what do you mean winning wasnt his main objective
its not like the options are either win OR buy lelouch time
he was trying to do BOTH
he tried to defeat kallen to keep her from stopping lelouch just like he did gino
how ELSE would he have tried to do this other then winning ?
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Old 2009-05-31, 17:26   Link #8515
morbosfist
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Originally Posted by prototype_sky View Post
Winning wasn't his main objective at that time and you know it (Though defeating Kallen would've been a plus ).
Giving lulu a window to sieze the WMD's and surviving to finish the plan was
He says that he's trying to win, aloud. How much more proof do you need? Yes, winning was his objective, because losing would mean Kallen would go in there and kill Lelouch.
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Old 2009-06-01, 00:51   Link #8516
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Originally Posted by morbosfist View Post
He says that he's trying to win, aloud. How much more proof do you need? Yes, winning was his objective, because losing would mean Kallen would go in there and kill Lelouch.
Which she didn't, what's your damn point?
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Old 2009-06-01, 01:16   Link #8517
morbosfist
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Which she didn't, what's your damn point?
He lucked out, that's my point. She ham him on the end of his rope and the only thing that let him stop her was a last-ditch attack. He only succeeded because he was trying his hardest to win.
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Old 2009-06-01, 01:29   Link #8518
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He lucked out, that's my point. She ham him on the end of his rope and the only thing that let him stop her was a last-ditch attack. He only succeeded because he was trying his hardest to win.
How the hell is destroying your opponent's mech "lucking out", you making it seem like Kallen left undamaged when she also was giving her all in the fight and as I recall her last attack was a last-ditch effort (considering she was wondering whether she missed or not) not to mention Gino saved her from plummeting to her death incase you forgot. She would have died while Suzaku would have still lived on, if anyone lucked out as you speak it was her.
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Old 2009-06-01, 01:46   Link #8519
morbosfist
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How the hell is destroying your opponent's mech "lucking out", you making it seem like Kallen left undamaged when she also was giving her all in the fight and as I recall her last attack was a last-ditch effort (considering she was wondering whether she missed or not) not to mention Gino saved her from plummeting to her death incase you forgot. She would have died while Suzaku would have still lived on, if anyone lucked out as you speak it was her.
It's lucking out when your mech is literally incapable of movement. In case you hadn't noticed, he was short a leg. He wasn't going anywhere. That was his last attack, and if it had failed he was fucked. Kallen, on the other hand, had a fully-mobile Knightmare. The only reason she comments about not reaching is because his attack hits and the power shuts down. It was not her last-ditch attack, but she couldn't go on when he scored that shot.

As for who escapes what, assuming Gino wasn't there to save her, the Damocles still has an active shielding system. Gino didn't shut down the whole thing. She'd have hit the shields near the bottom first, then maybe slid off. Plus she's a long way up, plenty of time to come to and eject. There's also plenty more allies in the area to see her falling and save her.
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Old 2009-06-01, 02:05   Link #8520
FruitsPunchSamurai
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It's lucking out when your mech is literally incapable of movement. In case you hadn't noticed, he was short a leg. He wasn't going anywhere. That was his last attack, and if it had failed he was fucked. Kallen, on the other hand, had a fully-mobile Knightmare. The only reason she comments about not reaching is because his attack hits and the power shuts down. It was not her last-ditch attack, but she couldn't go on when he scored that shot.
Ifs doesn't make your argument valid, and way to contradict yourself genius, since he still managed to destroy her most powerful tool with that leg along with the fact that those harukens destroyed the operation system but yet you claim Kallen had a full functioning Knightmare Frame after his last attack, whether you wanna deny the fact that her last attack wasn't a last-ditch effort is up to you considering it's staring right in the face.
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As for who escapes what, assuming Gino wasn't there to save her, the Damocles still has an active shielding system. Gino didn't shut down the whole thing. She'd have hit the shields near the bottom first, then maybe slid off. Plus she's a long way up, plenty of time to come to and eject. There's also plenty more allies in the area to see her falling and save her.
You see you keep making these BS excuses but you have no evidence to back it up, whether your right or wrong about the shields she would have slid off like you believe and do you know how far of a drop that is? And in case you forgot she fainted after the battle, so your implying that she would be able to recover the strength to afterwards? Finally Gino was the only one in the area since Kallen was the only one to bypass the shields thanks to him and since everyone had their KMF destroyed and Xingke was just heading out ti the battlefield at the time (after Lelouch declaration of his victory) no one would have saved her, try harder
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