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Old 2009-05-25, 17:17   Link #201
Master Mold
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Keroko View Post
I'd say a battle against Magellan would turn out the same way as it did last time. Personally, I think that Magellan will be fighting Blackbeard as he'll be seeing him as the greatest threat (Shichibukai gone rogue or Luffy? My priority would be the Shichibukai.)
I say Blackbeard is going to keep pushing farther in to Impel down, while Luffy and Co, keep pushing to escape only to run into Magellan and do battle.

Quote:
Ironically you contradict yourself by replying to another quote with this:

"I don't think you where disappoint when Whitebeard met up with shanks or when the Blackbeard vs Ace happened where Luffy was no where to be found. Or when Zoro saved Luffy's ass at Thiller Bark. "


So Luffy steals the spotlight 'every time' huh?
Using there Logic, the main character or rather Luffy is always to be in the spotlight, that's what I'm combating in this debate.

Not to mention that was an explanation for why, I would call Oda a Luffy fan boy, and why this would be bad writing if such happened in X big event, thats out of Luffy' weight class. Nice way to try and twist words.

Quote:
And war =/= the only way to obtain the 'right' to save Ace.
Luffy does not have the right to it.

Quote:
Luffy went to save Ace, going to the ultimate point of no return for pirates without any help, faced capture and torment and yet still did not give up on saving his brother. I'd say that he damn well earned to save Ace.
Lol! No, that is not the ultimate point of no return for pirates, you have that mixed up with where the Ace's execution will be held, and Luffy DID have help and continues to gain help.

Boa, Jinbei, Cross dressers, buggy etc etc.

Quote:
Nope. That was good stuff indeed. And I agree Luffy does not have to do everything, however in this case Whitebeard saving Ace and Luffy nowhere to be found would render all his efforts in Impel Down invalid, basically making the entire Impel Down arc irrelevant. I'd like to see his efforts to invade the one place Pirates avoid at all costs rewarded.
No it would not, Luffy failing to save Ace, 1st and for most. Would reestablish WHY this moron that is Luffy needs to get stronger, Not to mention him meeting up and freeing Jinbei will certainly help Luffy out when the SH go to Fishmen island etc etc.

Last edited by Master Mold; 2009-05-25 at 17:30.
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Old 2009-05-25, 17:26   Link #202
holypanl
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Originally Posted by Fipskuul View Post
I didn't see that part. I only checked the picture on that part. I will check the script.

Alright, I checked and still couldn't see. Are those stated in the non-translated parts of the chapter?

Anyways, if that is the case, then it makes me think whether he uses a special technique to increase his durability, kind of like tekkai. Maybe this is his power.
I'm going to have to ask how you got that notion into your head. I mean: some things are reasonable, viable inferences, but...

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Originally Posted by Phenomenal View Post
And thats' the point, Luffy is letting loose scum. Most of the no-named prisoners released were scum. His selfish actions have conasequences as well, that's not scewing Hannybal's words but that's basically his point.^^^
Just as a side note, I really find it to be disappointing that so many criminals have been found so terrible that they had to be sentenced to IMPEL DOWN.

With the impression that Enies Lobby gave, you'd have though it would have been only the rawest, most horribly politically, and criminally evil people who'd be there.

There should be NO no named people in Impel Down, honestly. There are jails all over grand line for people like that.

I kinda thought...*sigh*...anyway, it's too late for wishes now.
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Old 2009-05-25, 17:31   Link #203
james0246
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Master Mold View Post
Luffy does not have the right to it.
Why not? Luffy has just as much of a "right" to try and rescue Ace as Whitebeard does (Ace is Luffy's brother, and Luffy did brave, no matter how much you disparage the place, Impel Down for Ace). And, once again, Luffy has declared war against the WG, and his first tactical strike was against Impel Down itself.
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Old 2009-05-25, 17:37   Link #204
Master Mold
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Originally Posted by james0246 View Post
Why not?Luffy has just as much of a "right" to try and rescue Ace as Whitebeard does (Ace is Luffy's brother, and Luffy did brave, no matter how much you disparage the place, Impel Down for Ace). And, once again, Luffy has declared war against the WG, and his first tactical strike was against Impel Down itself.
Sorry James......theres a strength requirement.
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Old 2009-05-25, 17:46   Link #205
Keroko
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Originally Posted by Master Mold View Post
I say Blackbeard is going to keep pushing farther in to Impel down, while Luffy and Co, keep pushing to escape only to run into Magellan and do battle.
Could happen, but with Blackbeard holding the best cards to defeat Magelan, I'm placing my bets on my theory.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Master Mold View Post
Using there Logic, the main character or rather Luffy is always to be in the spotlight, that's what I'm combating in this debate.

Not to mention that was an explanation for why, I would call Oda a Luffy fan boy, and why this would be bad writing if such happened in X big event, thats out of Luffy' weight class. Nice way to try and twist words.
Am I twisting words? You are the one constantly calling Oda a 'Luffy fanboy' as this is hardly the first time I have heard you toss the term. However, when pressed on the subject, you do agree that Luffy does not steal 'all' the spotlight.

I did not twist any words, I quoted you word for word. You do agree that Luffy does not steal all the spotlight, thereby rendering your 'Luffy steals all the spotlight' argument invalid.

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Originally Posted by Master Mold View Post
Luffy does not have the right to it.
Yes, I know, you already said so before. Now if you would care to tell me why Luffy, who has ravaged through the one place pirates actually fear, does not have the right to save his own brother then we might actually get somewhere.

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Originally Posted by Master Mold View Post
Lol! No, that is not the ultimate point of no return for pirates, you have that mixed up with where the Ace's execution will be held, and Luffy DID have help and continues to gain help.

Boa, Jinbei, Cross dressers, buggy etc etc.
The concept of methaphors aparently escapes you, but oh well, I'll yield this point. Let me correct it then as 'the one place no pirate wants to end up'

As for help, yes he did have help. Unexpected help. Help he did not plan or forsee. And yet he still entered Pirate Hell.

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Originally Posted by Master Mold View Post
No it would not, Luffy failing to save Ace, 1st and for most. Would reestablish WHY this moron that is Luffy needs to get stronger, Not to mention him meeting up and freeing Jinbei will certainly help Luffy out when the SH go to Fishmen island etc etc.
We already established the 'why Luffy needs to get stronger' when the Strawhats got soundly defeated on Sabaody. Rather than re-stating the same point again by letting Luffy fail we should be seeing progress here.
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Old 2009-05-25, 17:56   Link #206
Master Mold
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Originally Posted by Keroko View Post
Could happen, but with Blackbeard holding the best cards to defeat Magelan, I'm placing my bets on my theory.
Who wouldn't bet on there own?

Quote:
Am I twisting words? You are the one constantly calling Oda a 'Luffy fanboy' as this is hardly the first time I have heard you toss the term. However, when pressed on the subject, you do agree that Luffy does not steal 'all' the spotlight.

I did not twist any words, I quoted you word for word. You do agree that Luffy does not steal all the spotlight, thereby rendering your 'Luffy steals all the spotlight' argument invalid.
Again, Using there Logic, the main character or rather Luffy is always to be in the spotlight, that's what I'm combating in this debate. Not to mention that was an explanation for why, I would call Oda a Luffy fan boy, and why this would be bad writing if such happened in X big event, that's out of Luffy' weight class.


Quote:
Yes, I know, you already said so before. Now if you would care to tell me why Luffy, who has ravaged through the one place pirates actually fear, does not have the right to save his own brother then we might actually get somewhere.
There is a strength requirement.

Quote:
The concept of methaphors aparently escapes you, but oh well, I'll yield this point. Let me correct it then as 'the one place no pirate wants to end up'
I guess you mean to say metaphors? Well apparently Blackbeard and his crew wanted to go to Impel Down it would seem.

Quote:
As for help, yes he did have help. Unexpected help. Help he did not plan or forsee. And yet he still entered Pirate Hell.
But you said...
Quote:
Originally Posted by You
Luffy went to save Ace, going to the ultimate point of no return for pirates without any help, faced capture and torment and yet still did not give up on saving his brother. I'd say that he damn well earned to save Ace.
Quote:
We already established the 'why Luffy needs to get stronger' when the Strawhats got soundly defeated on Sabaody. Rather than re-stating the same point again by letting Luffy fail we should be seeing progress here.
I guess it needs to be reestablish since this moron has not gotten any stronger, yet still try to do things, that are out of his weight class.

Why should we get progress when Luffy has not changed?

Last edited by Master Mold; 2009-05-25 at 18:06.
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Old 2009-05-25, 18:33   Link #207
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Master Mold View Post
Again, Using there Logic, the main character or rather Luffy is always to be in the spotlight, that's what I'm combating in this debate. Not to mention that was an explanation for why, I would call Oda a Luffy fan boy, and why this would be bad writing if such happened in X big event, that's out of Luffy' weight class.
Actually, they were arguing that it was logical for Luffy to be the central character because this Arc is all about Luffy saving Ace. And they're right. The entire Impel Down arc has been about Luffy saving Ace.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Master Mold View Post
There is a strength requirement.
Uh-huh. Something official or just your opinion? I've already given several ideas as to how Luffy can pull of a rescue while not being as powerful as Kizaru or even his underlings.

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Originally Posted by Master Mold View Post
But you said...
Yup. And he did. In fact, he was even warned by Boa that she couldn't help him in there. Even so he bravely stepped forward into the den with no help in sight.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Master Mold View Post
I guess it needs to be reestablish since this moron has not gotten any stronger, yet still try to do things, that are out of his weight class.

Why should we get progress when Luffy has not changed?
Because as I said before, the effort of going into Impel Down deserves rewarding lest they be rendered irrelevant. Whether that happens with Luffy saving Ace himself or helping Whitebeard save him is largely irrelevant to me, as long as Luffy has a part in that rescue.
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Old 2009-05-25, 18:37   Link #208
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Originally Posted by Master Mold View Post
Sorry James......theres a strength requirement.
That is absolute BS. Your argument means nothing because Luffy has already declared war against the WG. Is there a strength requirement to attack Enies Lobby or Impel Down (2 of the 3 bastions of Marine power)? Is there a strength requirement to knock around a Tenryubito? Et cetera. There is no strength requirement for going to war against the WG, strength is only needed to succeed in a full scale war (ex: Robin's Archeologist friends failed at their act of rebellion because they lacked strength, whereas Dragon is succeeding because he has strength).

Last edited by james0246; 2009-05-25 at 18:55.
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Old 2009-05-25, 18:47   Link #209
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Luffy is main charecter

Luffy is most populat one piece charecter

Luffy is most popular Shounen Jump charecter

Luffy is central figure of One Piece story.

I really like Luffy and I have been enjoying his adventures, specially Impel Down, I love other Strawhats and they each form powerful and diverse Nakama but I really like seeing Luffys quest of saving his brother from execution.

Is Oda's current focus on Luffy right? Or perhaps wrong?

You can argue about it if you wish, you can try fill 10 pages of your posts where you attempt to force others accept your own personal views.

I wont care your opinion Master Mold, you have made very clear of your opinion on this matter in last 10 pages but I and majority of One piece fans will continue to enjoy on current chapters and will wait future chapters with excitement.

I sincerely suggest you to go on AP forums with your arguments and see how people over there will listen.
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Old 2009-05-25, 18:49   Link #210
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Prestige View Post
Luffy is main charecter

Luffy is most populat one piece charecter

Luffy is most popular Shounen Jump charecter

Luffy is central figure of One Piece story.

I really like Luffy and I have been enjoying his adventures, specially Impel Down, I love other Strawhats and they each form powerful and diverse Nakama but I really like seeing Luffys quest of saving his brother from execution.

Is Oda's current focus on Luffy right? Or perhaps wrong?

You can argue about it if you wish, you can try fill 10 pages of your posts where you attempt to force others accept your own personal views.

I wont care your opinion Master Mold, you have made very clear of your opinion on this matter in last 10 pages but I and majority of One piece fans will continue to enjoy on current chapters and will wait future chapters with excitement.

I sincerely suggest you to go on AP forums with your arguments and see how people over there will listen.
Yay XD
and I keep on enjoying my weekly (sometimes held) dose of OP
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Old 2009-05-25, 19:01   Link #211
Master Mold
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Originally Posted by james0246
That is absolute BS.
What transpired on Sabaody Archipelago, disagrees with you.


Quote:
Is there a strength requirement to attack Enies Lobby
Yes, hence Luffy getting stronger (Gears Power up), after failing to bring Robin back in water seven. (Aojiki, and Rob Lucci)


Quote:
or Impel Down (2 of the 3 bastions of Marine power)?
Magellan killed Luffy.

Quote:
Is there a strength requirement to knock around a Tenryubito?
There is if you didn't want to get pwn by Sentomaru.


Quote:
I their a known strength requirement for standing up against a Shichibukia and defeating one? Et cetera.
Now expand this logic, Luffy is heading to a place where there are more heavy hitters then Sabaody Archipelago.

Quote:
Your argument means nothing because Luffy has already declared war against the WG.
That is what means nothing, For Luffy says a lot of things but can't back them up.


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Originally Posted by Keroko View Post
Actually, they were arguing that it was logical for Luffy to be the central character because this Arc is all about Luffy saving Ace. And they're right. The entire Impel Down arc has been about Luffy saving Ace.
Impel Down =/= MHQ/War.


Quote:
Uh-huh. Something official or just your opinion? I've already given several ideas as to how Luffy can pull of a rescue while not being as powerful as Kizaru or even his underlings.
Nyon: And do you have any idea...
...just how impossible that will be, and the scale of this coming war?
You might as well be an ant charging into a storm!
You could be buffetted back and killed in an instant.

- Page 14 -

Ivankov: Oh, don't be a FOOL!! Hyou, fight against the very CENTER of power?!
Do hyou know the strength of Whitebeard?! Do hyou know the strength...
...of the admirals and vice admirals being sent to stop him?! How many lives DO hyou have, anyway?!

I guess its just me.


Quote:
Yup. And he did. In fact, he was even warned by Boa that she couldn't help him in there. Even so he bravely stepped forward into the den with no help in sight.
Luffy needed Boas help to get to impel down in the 1st place.


Quote:
Because as I said before, the effort of going into Impel Down deserves rewarding lest they be rendered irrelevant.
Saving Ace ain't the only reward to be had, and if Luffy does not save ace it still wouldn't render Impel Down arc irrelevant.

Quote:
Whether that happens with Luffy saving Ace himself or helping Whitebeard save him is largely irrelevant to me, as long as Luffy has a part in that rescue.
Ok, as long as other characters get there long awaited fame development etc etc, I'll be cool.

Last edited by Master Mold; 2009-05-25 at 22:04.
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Old 2009-05-25, 19:05   Link #212
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^Way to miss the point entirely. There is no strength requirement to try anything. Strength, overwhelming or otherwise, is needed to succeed, but it is not needed to try. Luffy has a place on the upcoming battlefield; to say otherwise is simply preposterous. To put it another way, Luffy trying =/= succeeding.
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Old 2009-05-25, 19:16   Link #213
Master Mold
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Originally Posted by Prestige View Post
Luffy is main charecter

Luffy is most populat one piece charecter

Luffy is most popular Shounen Jump charecter
Luffy is the main character but not the only one.

Not to all of us, not to mention, I'm not a follower, so I wont instantly like what the majority likes.

Quote:
You can argue about it if you wish, you can try fill 10 pages of your posts where you attempt to force others accept your own personal views.


I wont care your opinion Master Mold, you have made very clear of your opinion on this matter in last 10 pages but I and majority of One piece fans will continue to enjoy on current chapters and will wait future chapters with excitement.
What? I'm just discussing One Piece, that means not just the likes, but also the dislikes. If you don't have the heart to stomach it ignore them, & What are you talking about? I enjoyed this One Piece chapter? I guess, I have not made my Opinion clear enough at least regarding what we are discussing, since you think the discussion me and a few other members are having are about not liking One Piece.

Quote:
I sincerely suggest you to go on AP forums with your arguments and see how people over there will listen.
They are the same bunch of user who say the Data Books are bull, I can go on for miles with what they won't listen to (with the minority doing the opposite.) So I will pass.

Last edited by Master Mold; 2009-05-25 at 21:44.
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Old 2009-05-25, 23:06   Link #214
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Are you all forgetting Luffy already lost in Impel Down? I'm not surprised, since the loss to Magellan turned out to be utterly meaningless.

In truth, Luffy's strength wasn't even necessary for what is happening. Ivankov could have raided the lower levels and started releasing the most powerful prisoners without him.

What bothers me is that lately Luffy has been struggling and losing fight after fight, and yet by pure luck his role is greatly improving in that time and he continues to move up into higher weight classes.

It feels like he is being "forced" into his current role because he is the main character, rather than earning it.

Losing, name-dropping your dad, and getting help from people who really didn't need you... is not earning it.

By the way I'm a big fan of Luffy myself, which is part of why I'm bothered by this. A loss should not be played off like it was nothing. Luffy should earn his role by improving, rather than moving up by luck/name.
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Old 2009-05-26, 00:02   Link #215
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Originally Posted by Ermes Marana View Post
Are you all forgetting Luffy already lost in Impel Down? I'm not surprised, since the loss to Magellan turned out to be utterly meaningless.

In truth, Luffy's strength wasn't even necessary for what is happening. Ivankov could have raided the lower levels and started releasing the most powerful prisoners without him.

What bothers me is that lately Luffy has been struggling and losing fight after fight, and yet by pure luck his role is greatly improving in that time and he continues to move up into higher weight classes.

It feels like he is being "forced" into his current role because he is the main character, rather than earning it.

Losing, name-dropping your dad, and getting help from people who really didn't need you... is not earning it..
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Originally Posted by Master Mold View Post
Luffy didn't earn it.
Quote:
Originally Posted by holypanl
Just as a side note, I really find it to be disappointing that so many criminals have been found so terrible that they had to be sentenced to IMPEL DOWN.

With the impression that Enies Lobby gave, you'd have though it would have been only the rawest, most horribly politically, and criminally evil people who'd be there.

There should be NO no named people in Impel Down, honestly. There are jails all over grand line for people like that.

I kinda thought...*sigh*...anyway, it's too late for wishes now.
Amen

......

Last edited by Phenomenal; 2009-05-26 at 02:45.
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Old 2009-05-26, 04:39   Link #216
andy
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Originally Posted by Ermes Marana View Post
Are you all forgetting Luffy already lost in Impel Down? I'm not surprised, since the loss to Magellan turned out to be utterly meaningless.

In truth, Luffy's strength wasn't even necessary for what is happening. Ivankov could have raided the lower levels and started releasing the most powerful prisoners without him.

What bothers me is that lately Luffy has been struggling and losing fight after fight, and yet by pure luck his role is greatly improving in that time and he continues to move up into higher weight classes.

It feels like he is being "forced" into his current role because he is the main character, rather than earning it.

Losing, name-dropping your dad, and getting help from people who really didn't need you... is not earning it.

By the way I'm a big fan of Luffy myself, which is part of why I'm bothered by this. A loss should not be played off like it was nothing. Luffy should earn his role by improving, rather than moving up by luck/name.

It been that way for a alot of manga . They don't earn anything they do a training arc or get some random power up .Then i have to ask you a question how would you have him earn it .
OP does not have training arcs .Also in this arc there no time for such things any way. If OP is only half way done right now, no way could he could won the first fight. If he had beat or even hurt Kizaru . OP should be near its ending not half way threw.

The second is like his croc fight , lost first time but that was needed so he could bring old and new chars into the mix for the ID arc. I much rather that then all of a sudden luffy master haki take down magellan, or rather the whole ID by him self. This way you give him some help and also show how he has improve in his next fight.

Last edited by andy; 2009-05-26 at 05:25.
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Old 2009-05-26, 06:35   Link #217
Keroko
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Originally Posted by Master Mold View Post
Impel Down =/= MHQ/War.
Nope, but this arc isn't about the war, it's about Luffy saving Ace..

Quote:
Originally Posted by Master Mold View Post
Nyon: And do you have any idea...
...just how impossible that will be, and the scale of this coming war?
You might as well be an ant charging into a storm!
You could be buffetted back and killed in an instant.

- Page 14 -

Ivankov: Oh, don't be a FOOL!! Hyou, fight against the very CENTER of power?!
Do hyou know the strength of Whitebeard?! Do hyou know the strength...
...of the admirals and vice admirals being sent to stop him?! How many lives DO hyou have, anyway?!

I guess its just me.
Yup. Just you. Because I recall Spanda saying something awkwardly similar to Luffy when he went to save Robin which, coincidentally, was also after a major loss. And guess who walked away victoriously from that one?

So yeah, excuse me if I take other people saying there's no way he can do it with a pinch of salt.

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Originally Posted by Master Mold View Post
Luffy needed Boas help to get to impel down in the 1st place.
Ayup, and after that he entered with no help in sight.

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Originally Posted by Master Mold View Post
Ok, as long as other characters get there long awaited fame development etc etc, I'll be cool.
.... Wait, I suggested this pages back and you hammered into it, and now you're agreeing? Meh, oh well.

Out of curiosity, which characters are you referring to when you say their 'long awaited development?'
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Old 2009-05-26, 11:32   Link #218
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Nope, but this arc isn't about the war, it's about Luffy saving Ace..
True, but even during this war, the save Ace motive (or plot or whatever) will not be tossed aside.

Quote:
Yup. Just you. Because I recall Spanda saying something awkwardly similar to Luffy when he went to save Robin which, coincidentally, was also after a major loss. And guess who walked away victoriously from that one?

So yeah, excuse me if I take other people saying there's no way he can do it with a pinch of salt.
The difference here is simple, Luffy has yet to prove its wrong. Heck as readers we all know Luffy is weak sauce, when compared to those guys.

Quote:
Ayup, and after that he entered with no help in sight.
He still had help, and help on the inside, I don't think the argument was about Luffy not being brave, and IIRC didn't Oda state in an SBS the reason why Luffy does not fear X is because he is stupid?

Quote:
Out of curiosity, which characters are you referring to when you say their 'long awaited development?'
Whitebeard and his goons, Doflamingo, Mihawk, Sengoku and the Admirals and Vices, Smoker and his gang, Dragon Etc.

Last edited by Master Mold; 2009-05-26 at 11:48.
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Old 2009-05-26, 12:45   Link #219
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Originally Posted by Master Mold View Post
Whitebeard and his goons, Doflamingo, Mihawk, Sengoku and the Admirals and Vices, Smoker and his gang, Dragon Etc.
I’m not sure, but given what we have seen from smoker, and apart, the amount of new characters that are introduced in this series arc after arc, I doubt that smoker will get more character development, maybe the Girl with Glasses could, but that’s a small chance of happening.

At least, the type of character Smoker is, usually are not re-indtroduced to have some real impact in the storyline after they have played their role.

Regarding de Vice Admiral, I have always seen them as Canon Fodder or Voices of the author (I.E., created to transmit information to the reader).
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Old 2009-05-26, 12:58   Link #220
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I’m not sure, but given what we have seen from smoker, and apart, the amount of new characters that are introduced in this series arc after arc, I doubt that smoker will get more character development, maybe the Girl with Glasses could, but that’s a small chance of happening.

At least, the type of character Smoker is, usually are not re-indtroduced to have some real impact in the storyline after they have played their role.
If that happens, Then thats bad story telling on Odas part, maybe I should remind him in an SBS about Somker. After Smoker caught that 50,000,000 bounty head, he talked about gaining rank, to get to go New World to defeat the Straw Hat Pirates. If Oda just ups and leaves it.......well, what a shame.
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