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Old 2009-05-26, 22:56   Link #101
Claies
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Thingle View Post
Maybe it's my fear of China, but its best if they are divided up into multiple states. They can have republic of manchuria side by side with republic of guandong and republic of Xinjiang . That makes us other asians less uneasy about their potential imperialistic pursuits which they will be able to pursue while being the big state they are.
We'll probably end up with another East Asian war. North/South Korea is fine - nothing's going to happen. North/South/East/West China will engulf that part of the continent in flames. To begin, at least one of the splinter states will start legitimizing extremist views in Japan and the two Koreas.

That's when we're utterly screwed.
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Old 2009-05-26, 23:09   Link #102
LeoXiao
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Lathdrinor View Post
You quoted an old version of my post. Re-read it. My point is simple: FLG might have transformed itself, in the West, into a protest against religious persecution by the CCP, but within China, where it began, it was a new age religious movement that had the beginnings of mass appeal. Given how such movements could easily become delusional (since they are based, above all, on religious faith rather than secular reason), "faith" in their ability to enact the "right" kind of resistance seems dubious.

Sure, FLG might get people to quit the CCP ... Only to join the FLG.
It wasn't really an organization with a hierarchy (except the teacher) though. There were no political aspirations linked to the practice as a whole, and a vast majority of the people who followed it were in it for the mediation/health aspect and not so much the philosophical/spiritual part. I cited FLG as having a good approach in terms of resistance to the CCP's oppression, and regardless of what goals FLG may have, their actions are right (nonviolence and all that, in a totalitarian state no less), which is what I was trying to get at.

btw, I find it interesting that right off the bat you used the word "cult" to define FLG. Seems like an odd choice.
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Old 2009-05-26, 23:32   Link #103
Shadow Kira01
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Personally, I don't see the FLG as a cult or a religion. I always thought that the whole religious concept of theirs is merely a disguise for underground activities but only problem is their recruit system in which they take anybody implying any movements they pull off will most likely be known throughout the world before they actually make a move as the fact that China has set up a web of agents throughout the world in which they have people placed in every layer of a society in most nations. China's goal is to dominate the world, not to fight some non-profit organization, bear in mind. However, the FLG had rose to oppose them but that doesn't really matter as that the FLG is failure from the core to begin with. It is merely taking the form of a religious gathering that also possesses political objectives which may or may not be intentional as that all religions are associated with politics since ancient times.

The reason why the FLG has no guts to pull off something big is that if they do attempt to do so, agents who voluntarily joined the FLG would most likely report it to their superiors and the information will be carried up the levels of their government and that they will quickly denounced the non-profit organization as a terrorist organization, then receive a nod from the United States who are currently promoting an anti-terrorism movement to blacklist the FLG which in turn points out that the FLG will get legally hunted down across the world by multiple nations.

On the contrary, if the FLG continue to idle and do nothing, they are being fools at the same time as that their objectives to join the non-profit organization is to take part in a mass movement motivated by political objectives and the choice to do nothing simply points out that they are joining the religious sector just to get themselves killed for no reason at all. Generally, the nature of the FLG followers is to die trying or to waiting to die. If this is the case, shouldn't they do something about it? If you die trying, you might not regret it as that you did your best and lost whereas if you die waiting, you will probably regret it as that it is the most foolish thing to do in the world during chaotic times.

Perhaps, I might be getting some of these points wrong as that I have only done very little studying though my political science professor had occasionally brought up the issue of human rights and FLG, as well as Tibet during lectures. I am not very interested in the topic but it can't be helped..
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Old 2009-05-27, 00:16   Link #104
Lathdrinor
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Quote:
Originally Posted by LeoXiao View Post
It wasn't really an organization with a hierarchy (except the teacher) though. There were no political aspirations linked to the practice as a whole, and a vast majority of the people who followed it were in it for the mediation/health aspect and not so much the philosophical/spiritual part. I cited FLG as having a good approach in terms of resistance to the CCP's oppression, and regardless of what goals FLG may have, their actions are right (nonviolence and all that, in a totalitarian state no less), which is what I was trying to get at.

btw, I find it interesting that right off the bat you used the word "cult" to define FLG. Seems like an odd choice.
I didn't think it was a cult, either, but then I read this:

http://www.time.com/time/asia/asia/m...nterview1.html

Quote:
TIME: How does Falun Gong differ from other types of qigong?
Li: There are different practices of qigong in China and in other countries, but they are primarily aimed at healing illnesses or keeping fit and maintaining good health. I am teaching a higher level of qigong. It encompasses a greater content. It is like the Tao, which is known in the Western world.

TIME: And this expresses an inner energy?
Li: You probably know that some people have supernormal capabilities. They are unique capabilities that are created during the course of the cultivation practice. In order to reach a higher level, we require people to reach the perfection or completion of cultivation. In Chinese we call this attaining the Tao.

TIME: In your book [Zhuan Falun] you talk about people levitating off the ground but you say that they should not show other people. Why is that?
Li: It is the same principle that Western gods in paradise should not be seen by ordinary mortals because they cannot understand its meaning.

TIME: Have you seen human beings levitate off the ground?
Li: I have known too many.

TIME: Can you describe any that you have known?
Li: David Copperfield. He can levitate and he did it during performances.

TIME: You have said that this type of qigong should not be used to cure illness. Why is that?
Li: Healing illnesses belongs to the lower level of qigong. A person with an illness cannot practice to a higher level. One has to purify one's body in order to have gong. Healing and fitness are for laying a foundation at a lower level of practice.

TIME: Would you use qigong to cure an illness?
Li: I can do all of this, but I won't do it.

TIME: Why not?
Li: Because I only teach people how to learn this dafa [great law] and to practice cultivation. I only teach the principles of fa to mankind. I won't do anything else.

TIME: What is the final goal?
Li: The ultimate purpose is to enable people to attain the Tao and to complete their cultivation practice. In the end they can free themselves from the worldly state. I know that human lives are not created from the dimension that human beings think they know.

Time: Why does the master reveal this path to the qigong now?
Li: Mankind has many things that it never knew before. What I can tell you is that human moral values are no longer good. In the course of the cultivation practice, one can upgrade oneself. Many people will be able to complete their cultivation and attain the Tao. There will be some who will not be able to complete cultivation but will become very good people.

Time: Why did you come to New York?
Li: In China, the government is a centralized government. Because the number of our practitioners is large, the government may feel pressure.

Time: It is difficult to teach in China?
Li: In China, there are more than 100 million who practice this. The official estimate of the number of practitioners is 60 million. I want to teach people to be good and not to be involved in politics. I told people not to get involved in political events to make sure that they have a very good practice in their environment without interference.

Time: So why is the Chinese government concerned?
Li: America is a country with democracy. You probably don't understand what it is like in a country that has a centralized government. The Chinese government knows that what I am teaching is good and that I am teaching people to have high moral values. They are only concerned because there are so many people practicing cultivation.

Time: When did you learn about qigong?
Li: I started to learn when I was four years old. I was very young, and my teachers taught me aspects that were very simple.

Time: Who were your teachers?
Li: I do not wish to have their names known. I had masters in two schools. Prior to the Cultural Revolution people enjoyed quite a bit of religious freedom. Chinese were quite used to such things. It was like going to church in the West.

Time: When did you start teaching?
Li: I am more than 40 years old, and I have been practicing qigong for many years. When qigong became popular, I did not come out in the public. I did not want to teach about stopping illnesses or keeping fit.

Time: What made you finally come out?
Li: When these masters asked me to come out. At the time I said that there were too many people practicing qigong, and I said that I did not want to cure illnesses or to help people keep fit. They said, "What you do will be different. These people who are teaching how to cure illnesses and teaching fitness, are paving the road for your coming out."

Time: Where were these masters?
Li: They were in the mountains.

Time: How did the movement spread?
Li: Many people practice qigong in China. They all want to practice it to the higher levels, but no one was teaching them. They all wanted me to teach them. Some people organized the events and applied to the government for approval.

Time: When did you decide to come to America?
Li: I came here last year, and I started the application the year before that.

Time: Did you feel you were in danger in China?
Li: The government did not express a clear position, but the security ministries felt that there were too many people practicing. When we tried to hold meetings, they did not approve them because they felt there were too many people.

Time: What is the wheel that is Falun?
Li: It is a pattern, or a symbol on the surface. What it is inside is much better.

Time: So it is an idea?
Li: In the West, the spirit is separate from the body. In the East these are things that are very real and concrete.

Time: You talk about placing the wheel into the body.
Li: I can use my mind to direct and order things to happen.

Time: Is cultivation achieved through mental effort or physical exercise.
Li: Both are needed.

Time: What happens after one attains the Tao?
Li: We have all heard about the Chinese deities. When one completes cultivation, one has special powers.

Time: Can qigong prevent death?
Li: In the West, one can reach paradise through cultivation practice after death. In the East, one can achieve a divine status through cultivation practice while one is still alive.

Time: You talk about the period of the end of Dharma.
Li: While Buddha Sakyamuni [563-483 B.C.] was teaching his Dharma, there was no written language so the Dharma was passed by word of mouth. After 500 years, human discourse changed Buddha Sakyamuni's original words and it came to an end. The ending of the Dharma means that the cultivation method began to become chaotic and could no longer enable people to practice cultivation.

Time: Why does chaos reign now?
Li: Of course there is not just one reason. The biggest cause of society's change today is that people no longer believe in orthodox religion. They go to church, but they no longer believe in God. They feel free to do anything. The second reason is that since the beginning of this century, aliens have begun to invade the human mind and its ideology and culture.

Time: Where do they come from?
Li: The aliens come from other planets. The names that I use for these planets are different . Some are from dimensions that human beings have not yet discovered. The key is how they have corrupted mankind. Everyone knows that from the beginning until now, there has never been a development of culture like today. Although it has been several thousand years, it has never been like now.

The aliens have introduced modern machinery like computers and airplanes. They started by teaching mankind about modern science, so people believe more and more science, and spiritually, they are controlled. Everyone thinks that scientists invent on their own when in fact their inspiration is manipulated by the aliens. In terms of culture and spirit, they already control man. Mankind cannot live without science.

The ultimate purpose is to replace humans. If cloning human beings succeeds, the aliens can officially replace humans. Why does a corpse lie dead, even though it is the same as a living body? The difference is the soul, which is the life of the body. If people reproduce a human person, the gods in heaven will not give its body a human soul. The aliens will take that opportunity to replace the human soul and by doing so they will enter earth and become earthlings.

When such people grow up, they will help replace humans with aliens. They will produce more and more clones. There will no longer be humans reproduced by humans. They will act like humans, but they will introduce legislation to stop human reproduction.

Time: Are you a human being?
Li: You can think of me as a human being.

Time: Are you from earth?
Li: I don't wish to talk about myself at a higher level. People wouldn't understand it.

Time: What are the aliens after?
Li: The aliens use many methods to keep people from freeing themselves from manipulation. They make earthlings have wars and conflicts, and develop weapons using science, which makes mankind more dependent on advanced science and technology. In this way, the aliens will be able to introduce their stuff and make the preparations for replacing human beings. The military industry leads other industries such as computers and electronics.

Time: But what is the alien purpose?
Li: The human body is the most perfect in the universe. It is the most perfect form. The aliens want the human body.

Time: What do aliens look like?
Li: Some look similar to human beings. U.S. technology has already detected some aliens. The difference between aliens can be quite enormous.

Time: Can you describe it?
Li: You don't want to have that kind of thought in your mind.

Time: Describe them anyway.
Li: One type looks like a human, but has a nose that is made of bone. Others look like ghosts. At first they thought that I was trying to help them. Now they now that I am sweeping them away.,

Time: How do you see the future?
Li: Future human society is quite terrifying. If aliens are not to replace human beings, society will destroy itself on its own. Industry is creating invisible air pollution. The microparticles in the air harm human beings. The abnormality in the climate today is caused by that [pollution], and it cannot be remedied by humans alone. The drinking water is polluted. No matter how we try to purify it, it cannot return to its original purity. Modern science cannot determine the extent of the damage. The food we eat is the product of fertilized soil. The meat we eat is affected. I can foresee a future when human limbs become deformed, the body's joints won't move and internal organs will become dysfunctional. Modern science hasn't realized this yet.

At the beginning you asked why I did such things. I only tell practitioners, but not the public because they cannot comprehend it. I am trying to save those people who can return to a high level and to a high moral level. Modern science does not understand this, so governments can do nothing. The only person in the entire world who knows this is myself alone.

I am not against the public knowing, but I am teaching practitioners. Even though the public knows, it cannot do anything about it. People can't free themselves from science and from their concepts. I am not against science. I am only telling mankind the truth. I drive a car. I also live in the environment. Don't believe that I am against science. But I know that modern science is destroying mankind. Aliens have already constructed a layer of cells in human beings. The development of computers dictates this layer of body cells to control human culture and spirituality and in the end to replace human beings.
An organization is invariably defined by its founder. While I reckon that many people joined Falun Gong not for the stuff about the aliens and the human levitation, it is arguable that they were simply not exposed to the truly whacky aspects of the organization, as opposed to the whack not being part of FLG. I'd say the core of FLG, in the beginning, is something akin to Scientology, and that it got tamed down later by people who recognized how "out there" some of the stuff was. Still, as Scientology is tolerated in the West, FLG serves, as I said, as an example of China's religious oppression and a possible rallying point in that sense.

But there's no denying its potentially mind-warping doctrines, and given the example of Taiping, I'm not sure I'd trust someone like Li Hongzhi to lead China's next revolution.
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Old 2009-05-27, 01:08   Link #105
LeoXiao
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If you want to say that, then I guess that Christianity is a cult as well, because they have a lot of whacky stuff in the Bible as well.

But most Christians do not take it seriously or literally. Falun Gong is the same. The aliens are by no means a major (or significant in any way) component of the belief, and the idea that there are aliens (given the size of the universe) is not completely inconceivable either. In addition, levitation and other powers are a common theme in ancient Chinese folklore and mythology, and like the aliens, they are not of much significance to the belief or core principles, which, btw, if you know anything about FLG, is Truth, Compassion and Tolerance. These principles are brought up many, many times more than the aliens or levitation, and it is these principles (as well as the cultivation/meditation) that is central to the doctrine.

If FLG was like that group that was all about how "people had to join the aliens by committing suicide with special pills," then it'd be different. But the truth is what I have just described. There is nothing or at least very little that is cultish or abnormal about FLG, unless you're one of those antireligious people who thinks all religions are cults.

There are potentially mind-warping doctrines in just about everything, even Communism, which was supposed to be the scientifically-derived economic/politically theory, and look what happened: More people died from it than any religion, and in just 100 years.

Like I said in my essay post, FLG is not so much leading the revolution as it is fueling it from behind as a side effect. And the intent is not to gain political power as it is to spread the ideas of FLG. FLG does not want to take power and become the official law of China or anything. It just wants the CCP gone so that it can do what it was before.

It is again extremely important to keep in mind that the methods used by FLG are totally nonviolent, and that their reaction is natural (amazing even, that they did not resort to violence) considering what was done to them. Falun Gong is certainly fundamentally different from, say the various Communist Revolutions (which were often unprovoked seizures f power and involved lost of blood), or even the Taiping Rebellion which you brought up, which instantly started a civil war off the bat.

Quote:
The reason why the FLG has no guts to pull off something big is that if they do attempt to do so, agents who voluntarily joined the FLG would most likely report it to their superiors and the information will be carried up the levels of their government and that they will quickly denounced the non-profit organization as a terrorist organization, then receive a nod from the United States who are currently promoting an anti-terrorism movement to blacklist the FLG which in turn points out that the FLG will get legally hunted down across the world by multiple nations.
Yeah and that physically fighting is against their principles. If they started fighting it would instantly make them like any other religion that, when faced with oppression started getting violent and sacrificed principles for convinience.
If you read what I had explained, the form of opposition that Falun Gong has going on right now is the most effective, and the most humane.
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Old 2009-05-27, 01:31   Link #106
Lathdrinor
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Quote:
Time: Are you a human being?
Li: You can think of me as a human being.

Time: Are you from earth?
Li: I don't wish to talk about myself at a higher level. People wouldn't understand it.
To be fair, I might have been over hasty in labeling the entirety of FLG as a cult. Li and his closest followers (presuming they believe the stuff he said in the interview) come close to being one, but most FLG members, like most members of the CCP, are probably just ordinary people interested in ordinary things - like the truth, compassion, and tolerance you mentioned. However, mass movements like these easily get out of control. Like you yourself pointed out, Communism began as something similar - it was an ideology that preached equality and justice for all, that aspired to the overthrow of an "oppressive and parasitic ruling class" - yet look how it ended up. A handful of cunning, ambitious people can take advantage of people's ignorance and, using Li Hongzhi's own words, turn the movement into a mass delusion for their own political purposes. To some degree, that describes the Taiping Rebellion.

Quote:
And the intent is not to gain political power as it is to spread the ideas of FLG. FLG does not want to take power and become the official law of China or anything. It just wants the CCP gone so that it can do what it was before.
The problem is, if FLG looks like it might be successful in overthrowing the CCP, it is bound to attract people looking to take advantage of the resulting vacuum. Such people will likely use Li Hongzhi's words for their own purposes, and judging by the stuff he preached, that could result in some truly mind-warping doctrines. In the event of a successful revolution, FLG can then ride the victor's carpet into the position of a national religion.

Given some of the stuff FLG is associated with, I personally don't want to see that. You have to understand the power of mass movements in China. Communism in China was able to turn people against their own parents and teachers. I shiver at the thought of what a religion like FLG could do if preached to uneducated peasants and with the backing of the new government. Honestly, stuff like this:

Quote:
The aliens have introduced modern machinery like computers and airplanes. They started by teaching mankind about modern science, so people believe more and more science, and spiritually, they are controlled. Everyone thinks that scientists invent on their own when in fact their inspiration is manipulated by the aliens. In terms of culture and spirit, they already control man. Mankind cannot live without science.
Is basically Luddite in its sentiments. If taken literally, it could be used to stifle science and technology in China, leading to a new dark age. As if Chinese people weren't behind already.

In short, what makes you think that FLG, with its inherent craziness, wouldn't have become the new Communism, if it managed to overthrow the CCP? I understand protecting people's right to believe what they want, and the need for dissidence and resistance against CCP oppression, but do you really think that a quasi-religion like FLG is the right kind of movement to lead the revolution?
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Old 2009-05-27, 06:02   Link #107
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If any of you read about the Warring States or the pugilist world in ancient China, you would probably know that politics and semi-religious ideologies are often the centre of their conflicts.

I would say that Falungong and CCP is just a modern version of such.

Most importantly, I think such an issue would boil down the simple human behaviour of pride, not wanting to admit their flaws in the systems they created. It simply stretched beyond the limit to give such a tension (pun unintended).
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Old 2009-05-27, 06:03   Link #108
Tom Bombadil
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Originally Posted by Shadow Minato View Post
More over, China is not receptive to the outside world at all. When the world asked China to help stop North Korea's defiance, China asks the world to show some "self-restraint" on their missile activities. And now that North Korea went ahead and tested nukes along with more missiles, China asks the world to show some "calm and cool-headed approach". Although they claim to be very kind people who listens to the feelings of others, yet they do otherwise.
And you never wonder why they do that? North Korea is a strategic ally of China. It might be whimsical and frustrating a lot of times. But a bad apple might still be better than no apple at all, especially if you consider the alternatives. If North Korea falls, China will lose a huge buffer zone in the Korean Peninsula, in return it will have American military camps at the Chinese borders. A foothold in Korean Penninsula is a foothold to advance into China itself. That's why China and Japan fight over Korea in 19 century. That's also why China is a major player of the Korean war. National interest, that's the reason that China protects North Korea, the same reason that the US invaded Afghanistan and Iraq since they believed it was in their national interest.

On the other hand, North Korea is a bad apple. The prospect that the North possessing both Nukes and the means to deliver them implies that Beijing itself is in the attack range. No one in Beijing can be happy about that. Moreover, one more factor that China needs to consider is the reaction from Japan. An armed Japan would not be in the interest of China at all.

That's the place that China found itself in right now: between rocks and a hard place(鸡肋?). There is no easy way out of it. Personally, I think it is in the long term interest of China to let go of the North, its government in the least. It is a failed cause after all. But that would involves dramatic changes. But in the political world, status quo beats dramatic changes every time, think Britain or France at the eve of world war II, for example.

Do the South Koreans want to see the North fall? My bet is they don't.



On the topic of FLG, it is a cult built like a Pyramid scheme. Personally, I think it is kind of cancer of the society. It was a pity that so many people falls for it. I can still recall one advertising billboard they put up in my highschool years ago. My first reaction was this enormous urge to buy a bottle of ink to pour all over it. What is this thing doing in my school, the "holy ground" of science and education? The ridiculous claims it held was one of my biggest WTF moment of that time. I can't imagine how Chinese people or the society can benefit from spreading such idiocy. The fact FLG was dealt heavy handed does not negate the truth that it has to be dealt with.

About separating China, I am wondering whether there are text book out there teaching people such things. This is not the first time that I read this on this forum and every time I do, I am wondering what crack people were on. Ever tried to imagine that modern US separates into a few smaller nations? I don't think there is any reason for that to happen. Except the west part with the well known problems, the rest of China is pretty much integrated as a whole. Without the coal from northern China, most big cities won't have enough electricity to function. Part of the supply of eggs in the markets of Guangdong comes from Hebei(the province around Beijing). Such list could go on and on. Yes there are imbalances between the south and north, between the east and the west. But as far as I see, the threat to the separation of the nation posed by such imbalance is minimal in the short term. People are free to imagine whatever they want to, but it shows how much they are blinded by their own interest and how little they actually know about the nation.

Last, about the party, does it censor the internet? Yes. Human rights? Yes. Can you find a better solution? I don't know. People will suggest democracy, but what does it take to implement? How long does it takes? Can it solve the problems that China faces, like corruption? I am pretty sure Indian is pretty corrupted too. Democracy will be great if it works in China. But between 8% GDP growth every year and making China into the world's biggest experiment on democracy, I'll choose growth, well aware that it may not last for ever(at least I know what I am dealing with). Your may argue that democracy might bring better growth. But that's all speculation and we don't know what twisted or smooth path one must tread to get there. It is the status quo. Anyone with some common sense see the glaring problems with the current situation, but an unpredictable path and dramatic change is fearful as well. It like global warming, everyone knows that it probably will be a bad end if it goes on. But do you want to give up all your modern convenience? Even if you do occasionally, does it off set a new coal power plant in China or India?

The Chinese problem is not a simple one and it demands pragmatic approaches.
It is impractical and irresponsible to look everything from a ideological point of view and say why don't you do this, why don't you do that? If I am a newly graduated college student in China, will religion freedom help me to find a job?
There is no easy answers, there is no short term solutions. Maybe gradual reforms will help, or maybe not. I don't know.
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Last edited by Tom Bombadil; 2009-05-27 at 06:21.
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Old 2009-05-27, 10:35   Link #109
justavisitor
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China can be separated, but eventually all the separated states will be united again....even since 200 BC, when china got united after long time separation, the map of china is in every chinese blood already...then when china got separated (it happened a few times), almost every land lord's dream was to complete the puzzle, which is to unite china once again..of course, some land lords just tried to keep his territory forever, but every history textbook in chinese described those land lords as not aggressive enough or missed the chance to unite china etc..plus, chinese share the same language...

So therefore, every chinese has the map of china in his/her mind, and separation won't last forever...of course, tibet maybe a different story, because she is a fairly new region to China (I mean compared to 200 BC)

And about North Korea...I agree with Tom Bombadil's viewpoint...Normally China and Russia are keen to have a buffer zone...maybe those two big countries emphasize the control of land more...even tho sometimes I have to question whether North Korea's soldiers have lost the moral already...I mean, I know North Korea spent lot of money to keep the military, but with the economic condition in North Korea, I sometimes wonder if North Korea has enough money to keep the army...and everyone knows South Korea is a lot better in economy...when war starts (I hope not), North Korea's soldiers may not be as tough as we thought they would be
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Old 2009-05-27, 13:31   Link #110
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The principles of the FLG is like unrealistic one-sided ideals as that nobody else cares about how peaceful they want to be, otherwise needless bloodshed wouldn't be occurring. You can almost compare China with North Korea and FLG as South Korea. One seeks peace, another seeks war. One seeks co-existence, another seeks the destruction of the other.

In the end, the ones on the sidelines sees one as aggressive and the other as cowardly. The aggressive ones obviously have their reasons as to why they are doing so, whereas the cowards on the other hand don't even deserve any sympathy as that their suffering is accepted by their own hands as that they do have capability to fight back, yet they chose not to. It is their very own decision to live that way and thus, it is best to leave them alone.

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Originally Posted by LeoXiao View Post
If you want to say that, then I guess that Christianity is a cult as well, because they have a lot of whacky stuff in the Bible as well.
It is a cult. The least to say, it appears as one in most of the games I played. Persona 3 FES makes a very good point at why it is a cult, nothing to do with the whacky stuff in the Bible but if you pay attention to its structure, it totally seems that way. And when you pay attention to the whacky stuff in the Bible, it only makes it worse. No wonder why there are more Islam members than Christians but at the same time, the Islam has political principles such as dominating the world in its final objective which is not the same as whacky stuff.

Quote:
But most Christians do not take it seriously or literally. Falun Gong is the same. The aliens are by no means a major (or significant in any way) component of the belief, and the idea that there are aliens (given the size of the universe) is not completely inconceivable either. In addition, levitation and other powers are a common theme in ancient Chinese folklore and mythology, and like the aliens, they are not of much significance to the belief or core principles, which, btw, if you know anything about FLG, is Truth, Compassion and Tolerance. These principles are brought up many, many times more than the aliens or levitation, and it is these principles (as well as the cultivation/meditation) that is central to the doctrine.

If FLG was like that group that was all about how "people had to join the aliens by committing suicide with special pills," then it'd be different. But the truth is what I have just described. There is nothing or at least very little that is cultish or abnormal about FLG, unless you're one of those antireligious people who thinks all religions are cults.

There are potentially mind-warping doctrines in just about everything, even Communism, which was supposed to be the scientifically-derived economic/politically theory, and look what happened: More people died from it than any religion, and in just 100 years.
Although FLG is asking people to join the Gods by means of committing suicide through the usage of special pills but they are doing something that is quite non-sensical. Those healing techniques of theirs is plain strange as that it obviously have no healing effects. Unless you have some sort of innate or obtained healing abilities, sitting them in meditation mode and waving your hands around isn't going to do you any good. On the contrary, if you do have healing abilities, it would make absolutely no sense as to why you would sit so uncomfortably and wave your hands in the air.

Quote:
Like I said in my essay post, FLG is not so much leading the revolution as it is fueling it from behind as a side effect. And the intent is not to gain political power as it is to spread the ideas of FLG. FLG does not want to take power and become the official law of China or anything. It just wants the CCP gone so that it can do what it was before.

It is again extremely important to keep in mind that the methods used by FLG are totally nonviolent, and that their reaction is natural (amazing even, that they did not resort to violence) considering what was done to them. Falun Gong is certainly fundamentally different from, say the various Communist Revolutions (which were often unprovoked seizures f power and involved lost of blood), or even the Taiping Rebellion which you brought up, which instantly started a civil war off the bat.

Yeah and that physically fighting is against their principles. If they started fighting it would instantly make them like any other religion that, when faced with oppression started getting violent and sacrificed principles for convinience.
If you read what I had explained, the form of opposition that Falun Gong has going on right now is the most effective, and the most humane.
This is where FLG fails.

What good are principles to you if you are just getting yourselves killed and recruiting more people to die with you? No clear objectives, total obscurity.

I know the FLG is like a bunch of pacifists but you know.. Pretty words are not going to change anything. No matter how righteous and correct you are, as long as you remain as Gandhi or one of those silent corpses, nothing will change. In fact, it will turn out to be the opposite as that propaganda will be playing a leading role in reshaping the truth of things into a pure distortion. Thoughts and beliefs start to flow internationally: "The FLG is a cult", "The FLG are useless", "The FLG are bad people who do bad things.", "The FLG is evil.", etc.. In the end, arresting, detaining, beating, and slaughtering of the FLG becomes legitimate and legal as that the world gets deceived into believing a distorted view, pure propaganda and they will no longer be able to tell good from evil, right from wrong, truth from lies. Perhaps, you would think, "we don't care" but when you and your people are getting hunted down and slaughtered, will you feel the same way? Let's say, you won't have any regrets but will the ones who foolishing joined the FLG feel the same way? I don't think so..

More over.. The world will not care much of you people getting slaughtered as that they are already deceived into seeing evil as good, wrong as right, and lies as truth and facts. "China is doing the right thing, you don't think so? You must be severely misinformed as that you do not seem to understand facts from fiction."

You know, these sort of strategies and tactics go all the way back to ancient times; its nothing new. And there is nothing to be surprised about either as that things hadn't just turned this way as that it had been this way for quite awhile already.
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Old 2009-05-27, 19:29   Link #111
4Tran
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I recalled the sequence of the Tiananmen Square incident, from the initial protests, to the seeming compliance from the CCP, to the reluctance of the local PLA units to act, to the eventual crackdown and massacre very vividly. It's a very sad moment in Chinese history, and it's an even that colored my views towards the PRC very negatively for over a decade. On reflection, the outcome was all but assured of being a bloody one given the pressures that the central government was in, and their options at the time. Moreover, it's an event that cannot be separated from the events in the rest of the world at the time.

1989 was a year of great upheaval - in Poland, we saw the Solidarity movement and Lech Walensa start to take hold of the people's imagination; in Germany, the Communist party was losing their grip on power, and the Berlin Wall would topple later that year; and even in the mighty USSR itself, the government was engaged in economic and political reforms to little effect. The entire world could see that what once had been a hallmark of stability and power was starting to crumble, and everyone was wondering which Communist country would be the next to weaken. The Chinese leaders weren't blind to this, so they were certain to be sensitive to any events that promised to sow dissent and weakened their power. A spontaneous popular movement like the student protests and the subsequent support from much of Beijing could easily have developed into a much more serious political movement; one that could have sent China onto the same path as the their peers in Europe. There was little chance that the central government could tolerate that, and so they cracked down on what was a peaceful protest. This does not excuse their actions of course, but I think that it helps a lot to see the whys of what happened.

As for the overall effect, the Tiananmen Square incident has a fair number of ramifications; not all of these being the obvious ones. The most obvious to the West is that all speech, record, even thought of those events has been suppressed by the CCP. There's two main reasons for this: the first is that it's an ugly blot to have to be responsible for, and Communist governments are well known for covering up ugly blots. The less obvious is to preserve the legacy of the all-but-sainted Deng Xiaoping. While Deng Xiaoping avoided a lot of the cult of personality of Mao, he is still held as one of the greatest, if not greatest, leader of Communist China. He was responsible for many of the innovations that brought wealth and prosperity to the country, and so any of his glory would also reflect well on the Party itself and on its leadership. Likewise, any smears that are attributed to Deng will also reflect badly. That's probably why, in one of the more momentous decisions to be made - whether to crack down, it was poor Li Peng who was set up to be the fall guy when it's obvious that it had to be the leader himself who made the actual call.

The lesser well-known ramifications are more to China's credit. The central government has certainly not forgotten about the Tiananmen Square incident; and indeed, they have learned a great deal from it. They've opened up liberties in all manner of public life - with the pointed exception of politics and large social gatherings. In everything else, the well being (or more accurately, the perceived well being) of the populace was paramount, and the leaders had to be respected, and be good enough to be respected. That's why there's currently things like a big push to somewhat equalize the prosperity that's been mostly evident on the coastal provinces. where once something like the Great Leap Forward was espoused on ideological grounds, with little care placed on how people suffered from it, there's now plenty of infrastructural work done in the hinterlands where there is yet to be much justification in terms of recouping costs. A lot of this kind of activity is precisely to deter the kind of popular sentiment that drove the students to Tiananmen Square to begin with. End result: the China of now is a very different country from the China of 1989. The amount of wealth visible on the coasts would have been undreamt of back then, as with perhaps the amount of non-political freedoms. Also, it's probably a lot more unified and stable than it has been in centuries, and the central government is very popular. No, China isn't exactly paradise on earth, but it's a lot better now than it was 20 years ago; and it's immeasurably better now than it was 30 or 40 years ago.

Oh, by the way, anyone who thinks that there's going to be some spontaneous uprising in China is being hopelessly naive. Unless things change to the degree where current conditions no longer apply at all, we're more likely to see a civil war in the U.S. first (and that's only about as likely as the Easter Bunny turning out to be real ).

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Originally Posted by SaintessHeart View Post
If any of you read about the Warring States or the pugilist world in ancient China, you would probably know that politics and semi-religious ideologies are often the centre of their conflicts.

I would say that Falungong and CCP is just a modern version of such.
You don't have to go that far back. For more recent examples of religious and quasi-religious uprisings threatening the very country we only have to look as far as the Taiping Rebellion and the Boxer Uprising. For non-religious popular uprisings, there's the anti-monarchist rebellions that toppled the Qing dynasty, and the the Communist Party itself. The CCP would have to be blind to not be sensitive to the least threat from this quarter, and Chinese leaders are nothing if not avid students of history.

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Originally Posted by SaintessHeart View Post
Most importantly, I think such an issue would boil down the simple human behaviour of pride, not wanting to admit their flaws in the systems they created. It simply stretched beyond the limit to give such a tension (pun unintended).
Pride is certainly one factor, but I think that paranoia and fear are the bigger culprits here.

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Originally Posted by Tom Bombadil View Post
That's the place that China found itself in right now: between rocks and a hard place(鸡肋?). There is no easy way out of it. Personally, I think it is in the long term interest of China to let go of the North, its government in the least. It is a failed cause after all. But that would involves dramatic changes. But in the political world, status quo beats dramatic changes every time, think Britain or France at the eve of world war II, for example.
If it could be done to any degree of success, I'm pretty sure that China would done so ages ago. They gain very little from the situation, and it's a constant source of headaches. The counterpoint is that the only way to apply any pressure on North Korea is to have enough dialogue with it for it to care about what you have to say. And it's a lot better for everyone involved if there's at least someone to have some sort of calming influence on North Korea, no matter how limited that influence is.


As for the Falun Gong stuff, if you really want to go in depth discussing it, I suggest that you take it to a new thread.
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Old 2009-05-27, 20:37   Link #112
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EDIT: Sorry, I started writing this before 4tran made his entrance. I too think we have gone off-topic, as if you read my post you will see I have written a paragraph on it in closing.


Okay, it seems there are the following major viewpoints on this topic (FLG in particular) we are discussing so far, that I can discern:

Lathdrinor (1): You seem to maintain that FLG is a group, that while having originally semi-cultish philosophies, is largely normalized by the vast majority of its followers. However, it is dangerous because it could easily transform into a very strict, structured organization with harmful intent.
Tom Bombadil (2): FLG is a cancer of society with a pyramid structure. You say it has "ridiculous claims" and must be dealt with.
Shadow Minato (3): FLG is a group that can't get anything done, because it uses the wrong method to oppose the persecution. In fact, it can be seen as bad because it makes other feel like they must take these methods as well even though they do not work.

1. So what are you suggesting? It seems that you dislike FLG for existing in the first place. What should FLG do, considering that it is being persecuted? Currently it is doing what I have been describing for the last few posts; just protesting in the West and covertly spreading its thoughts and POV throughout China.
What's a better option? Just sit and wait to be killed or jailed? Not practice FLG anymore? Organize an active and structured opposition/rebellion?

Keep in mind that the Taiping Rebellion was not at first an active rebellion, but an armed group that fought local warlords and gained influence in the area. It was when the Imperial Army started attacking it that it chose a guerrilla stance, and from there became ever-more militarized.
FLG didn't start out violent in 1992, and it isn't violent now, 17 years later. This is a pretty big difference from the Taiping, I'd say. Could it become violent? Maybe, since tehre is always the possibility. But it hasn't become violent , and there's not even any sign of factions/denominations, or any noticeable schisms taking place within the group, so I'd say it's pretty stable.

2. I already explained that FLG has almost no structure, and it's pretty well established here that's it's not a cult. I don't really think I can say any more unless you're going to explain your opinions more clearly. How is it a cancer? What is ridiculous about it? What did the billboard say, for instance? It seems strange that you take a lot of thought on what you say about other issues like North Korea and other aspects of China's future, but when it comes to FLG all you have to offer is unexplained invective.

3. So it seems what you're tying to get at here is that FLG should carry out a much more active resistance, since they have an overwhelming disadvantage anyhow. You said:
Quote:
What good are principles to you if you are just getting yourselves killed and recruiting more people to die with you? No clear objectives, total obscurity.
FLG does have a clear objective: It wants to be able to practice and gather openly, and be allowed to spread its ideas. And it isn't obscure, either, at least not in China. Everybody in China knows about it. If you mean the West, let me tell you: The West does not have the power to directly affect China. China has the economy of the USA by the balls right now; it doesn't matter how much public annoyance there is at Tibet or FLG or anything in China, as long as the US has strong economic ties with China there is nothing it can or will realistically do to significantly affect the situation.

The principles are everything. The reason why I support FLG so much is because I believe it is amazing that, considering who they are (a group of people, lol) and what situation they are under, have not betrayed their principles. You say principles are useless. I say they are most powerful.
To give an example, my mother frequently talks to her Chinese friends and family about this matter. At first, the only Chinese person I had heard of who actually supported FLG was my mother. Everyone else either totally bought into mainland China's propaganda or didn't think it was of much consequence. In a few years, all but maybe one or two of these people now are on the "I agree" side of the issue.
My mother is a believer of FLG. Because she does not have a full time job, she works on projects which often include protesting the CCP's actions and such, with some other FLG practitioners in the area. Because of my relationship to her, I know a lot about the beliefs and workings of FLG, and therefore I am sure of many of the things I say here (unlike some of my political speculations).
Having known many people involved with FLG and seen many of the results of the actions it's followers take, I have no doubts that it (the methods) is superior to the normal methods used by other movements, such as military revolt, overt political opposition, or just sitting there and doing nothing.

Shadow, Minato, you said that nothing would change if FLG acted like Gandhi or a still corpse. Once again, I want to reiterate that that is not true at all. Just by talking directly to individuals, FLG has achieved a lot in the way of getting Chinese people to become more aware. This has not ushered in any sudden change or major action (after all, FLG is still banned), but it has thawed, at least a little bit, the attitude towards FLG in the minds of Chinese.
Like I said before, the very reason why FLG is different from other groups is because it does not seek any intermediate process (such as forming a political party or militia), like the Communist movements did, for example, to get to its final and simple goal. FLG directly focuses on the minds of individual people, and I believe, that as more and more individuals come to see things more from FLG's POV, the larger societal developments will follow suit. I already explained, that if China is to collapse ( which I think it is bound to), it is better that FLG is doing what it is right now, rather than messing around with becoming a militia or trying to form a political party. From FLG's perspective, doing those things would not coincide with FLG's goals and would just corrupt the original ideas of the group, and from a 3rd-party view, ones definitely does not want FLG to become military or political, as like Lathdrinor feared, bad things do often come of religions being misguided to become (or start out) military or political.

With regards to the thread as a whole, I would like to point out that we have gone off-topic by focusing on FLG. Therefore I will not say much more on the issue, as I feel I have already made my point and any more will something I cannot afford considering my other obligations. If there is something that is truly bothering you about my post please PM me about it; I do niot feel like drailing the thread any more.
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Old 2009-05-27, 21:38   Link #113
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@4Tran

I cannot quite agree with your view..yes I understand that at that time many communist countries were about to crumble, but anytime it's just wrong to use tanks and soldiers from other provinces to slaughter your own citizens...

And after 1989, yes the economic was booming afterward, but the freedom was not increasing at all, and in fact, ppl actually enjoyed less freedom then before. Take the china's major earthquake last year as an example, many many schools were collapsed because they were illegally built (like the building was not as strong as it should have been)...families of victims cannot make their cases heard in central china government, because local government blocked their path to the capital...local government beat those ppl up, locked them up somewhere else so they would not be able to present their cases to higher level. And when someone found out the proof that those buildings were not properly built, that guy got arrested for "stealing country's top level secret"

Now would those ridiculous acts from local government behave the same way before 1989...I don't know...but what I know is, if central government allows more ppl to come out and say no to those corrupted businessmen and government's officials, then no one would dare to those things I described in above so explicitly. Unfortunately, this is exactly what the central government from china has been oppressing since 1989...I give out more cash, bring out more propaganda of twisted patriotism, so I will not be overthrown...

If ppl accepted that proposal, sure their quality of life may become a little bit better, but you never know when you will provoke the corrupted government and businessmen, and they can take away your property, even your life in any given day. As a citizen, it's his right to ask for both economic stability and freedom at the same time. The government simply cannot use economic stability to exchange for freedom from citizens.
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Old 2009-05-27, 23:02   Link #114
Lathdrinor
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LeoXiao: my only point is that I don't think FLG's founder is the right kind of person to lead a mass movement in China. Many of his ideas seem, unfortunately, quite high in the crack factor and that makes him a potentially dangerous influence on whichever direction the movement takes. If China discards its current ideology only to buy into a new one about modern science being aliens' instrument for controlling humans, it'd be like the saying, "out of the frying pan and into the fire."
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Old 2009-05-28, 00:08   Link #115
4Tran
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Quote:
Originally Posted by justavisitor View Post
I cannot quite agree with your view..yes I understand that at that time many communist countries were about to crumble, but anytime it's just wrong to use tanks and soldiers from other provinces to slaughter your own citizens...
I'm not sure how you read my points as some sort of justification for the crack down - I'm merely trying to show what the mindset of the central government was at that time. Another thing to bear in mind is that China had been an extremely unstable country dating back until about 1800. Given all the famine, war, political upheaval and so forth, the country didn't see any appreciable stability until about 1980 or so, and before the decade was out, we had the Tiananmen Square incident.

Please also note that I'm not trying to paint the crack down as some sort of "regrettable action, but it had to be done". In fact, even the central government (maybe more pointedly, Deng Xiaoping) knew that it was an evil action, but they felt that they were risking too much if they let it continue. Was it a legitimate fear? I really don't think so - the students didn't really have any wish to overthrow the government even though they espoused a great deal of appreciation for democratic reform. If I remember correctly, their biggest demand was for some form of free press. What probably drove the paranoia level was that the students also received a lot of support from the residents of Beijing, and sympathy from the local PLA soldiers. Nothing can be more threatening to an authoritarian government than a popular movement which the Army supports more than the government itself, and so they acted. It is indeed an evil deed, and it's one which should probably be put on Deng Xiaoping's account eventually. Still, it was an act of calculated evil, and done for entirely rational reasons (even if the premises they were based on were false); not some kind of evil deed done as some cartoon villains would perform.

Quote:
Originally Posted by justavisitor View Post
And after 1989, yes the economic was booming afterward, but the freedom was not increasing at all, and in fact, ppl actually enjoyed less freedom then before. Take the china's major earthquake last year as an example, many many schools were collapsed because they were illegally built (like the building was not as strong as it should have been)...families of victims cannot make their cases heard in central china government, because local government blocked their path to the capital...local government beat those ppl up, locked them up somewhere else so they would not be able to present their cases to higher level. And when someone found out the proof that those buildings were not properly built, that guy got arrested for "stealing country's top level secret"
I'm not sure about the details of that bit, but the rest of your paragraph is a good point. However, it may not be the one that you're trying to make. Here's the big key: China is not some sort of monolith, and there are big differences between the central government, the provincial governments, and the local governments. For the Tiananmen Square incident, we're mostly concerned with the central government, and the ramifications of what it did. Local governments may or may not be affected by this, and they should be thought of as very different entities. In terms of popularity, the central government, and some of the key leaders (Wen Jaibao in particular) are thought of quite highly, while the local ones are often treated with disdain. While there's some reason to think that the one reflects on the other, it doesn't do to conflate them too much.

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Originally Posted by justavisitor View Post
Now would those ridiculous acts from local government behave the same way before 1989...I don't know...but what I know is, if central government allows more ppl to come out and say no to those corrupted businessmen and government's officials, then no one would dare to those things I described in above so explicitly. Unfortunately, this is exactly what the central government from china has been oppressing since 1989...I give out more cash, bring out more propaganda of twisted patriotism, so I will not be overthrown...
I'm not sure why you're trying to paint that last bit as some sort of negative, but isn't it a good thing for governments to spend money for the well-being of its citizens as a way of promoting stability? As I pointed out earlier, the bit about dampening free speech and criticism of some levels of government is certainly a sticking point of the current restrictions. But it really has come a long way from just how unopen it used to be in China. Once upon a time, you wouldn't have even heard about these criticism in the first place. It's one thing to say that "things are bad", but it's entirely different to not also take note of how much things are changing, and in what direction.

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Originally Posted by justavisitor View Post
If ppl accepted that proposal, sure their quality of life may become a little bit better, but you never know when you will provoke the corrupted government and businessmen, and they can take away your property, even your life in any given day. As a citizen, it's his right to ask for both economic stability and freedom at the same time. The government simply cannot use economic stability to exchange for freedom from citizens.
I think that you're way overblowing how big a problem this is. Yes, people in China are vulnerable to corrupt government official and businessmen. However, that's not exactly a problem foreign to other countries either.
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Old 2009-05-28, 00:10   Link #116
LeoXiao
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Originally Posted by Lathdrinor View Post
LeoXiao: my only point is that I don't think FLG's founder is the right kind of person to lead a mass movement in China. Many of his ideas seem, unfortunately, quite high in the crack factor and that makes him a potentially dangerous influence on whichever direction the movement takes. If China discards its current ideology only to buy into a new one about modern science being aliens' instrument for controlling humans, it'd be like the saying, "out of the frying pan and into the fire."
Eh. My thoughts still differ but I don't think we should pursue it further. Personally I'm tired and have a sh*itton of homework waiting for me. I do understand where you're coming from and I only hope that you understand my position as well.
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Old 2009-05-28, 02:44   Link #117
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Quote:
Originally Posted by 4Tran View Post
I recalled the sequence of the Tiananmen Square incident, from the initial protests, to the seeming compliance from the CCP, to the reluctance of the local PLA units to act, to the eventual crackdown and massacre very vividly. It's a very sad moment in Chinese history, and it's an even that colored my views towards the PRC very negatively for over a decade. On reflection, the outcome was all but assured of being a bloody one given the pressures that the central government was in, and their options at the time. Moreover, it's an event that cannot be separated from the events in the rest of the world at the time.
OT : How OLD are you?

I do agree that it is a very sad moment in the history of China, like the Opium War. China is wracked by internal strife throughout 5000 years of history but these are the ones that probably took the cake and changed what China (and Chinese) are for the years to come.

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1989 was a year of great upheaval - in Poland, we saw the Solidarity movement and Lech Walensa start to take hold of the people's imagination; in Germany, the Communist party was losing their grip on power, and the Berlin Wall would topple later that year; and even in the mighty USSR itself, the government was engaged in economic and political reforms to little effect. The entire world could see that what once had been a hallmark of stability and power was starting to crumble, and everyone was wondering which Communist country would be the next to weaken. The Chinese leaders weren't blind to this, so they were certain to be sensitive to any events that promised to sow dissent and weakened their power. A spontaneous popular movement like the student protests and the subsequent support from much of Beijing could easily have developed into a much more serious political movement; one that could have sent China onto the same path as the their peers in Europe. There was little chance that the central government could tolerate that, and so they cracked down on what was a peaceful protest. This does not excuse their actions of course, but I think that it helps a lot to see the whys of what happened.
Not just you Poles who rammed sticks up your government's asses. Heard of the Velvet Revolution in Prague, Czechoslovakia? I would say that the year proved to be the biggest damage that caused the downfall of communism (Soviets moved out of Afghanistan after getting beaten by the mujahideen.)

Quote:
As for the overall effect, the Tiananmen Square incident has a fair number of ramifications; not all of these being the obvious ones. The most obvious to the West is that all speech, record, even thought of those events has been suppressed by the CCP. There's two main reasons for this: the first is that it's an ugly blot to have to be responsible for, and Communist governments are well known for covering up ugly blots. The less obvious is to preserve the legacy of the all-but-sainted Deng Xiaoping. While Deng Xiaoping avoided a lot of the cult of personality of Mao, he is still held as one of the greatest, if not greatest, leader of Communist China. He was responsible for many of the innovations that brought wealth and prosperity to the country, and so any of his glory would also reflect well on the Party itself and on its leadership. Likewise, any smears that are attributed to Deng will also reflect badly. That's probably why, in one of the more momentous decisions to be made - whether to crack down, it was poor Li Peng who was set up to be the fall guy when it's obvious that it had to be the leader himself who made the actual call.
I guess that has to do with the stupidity of wanting face (personal pride) preserved. It is an Eastern tradition and rather stupid, considering that they would rather do something unbelievable others than to look stupid by admitting to their own mistakes, e.g (stereotypical, but true to an extent), the Japanese have seppuku, the Chinese have scapegoating and the Mideastern extremists strap bombs to themselves and become roadkill victims.

Such still exists today. That is why most of us studying here don't engage in Current Affairs in class. Losing face doesn't really matter, neither does apology. It is all about the importance of learning from mistakes,

Quote:
The lesser well-known ramifications are more to China's credit. The central government has certainly not forgotten about the Tiananmen Square incident; and indeed, they have learned a great deal from it. They've opened up liberties in all manner of public life - with the pointed exception of politics and large social gatherings. In everything else, the well being (or more accurately, the perceived well being) of the populace was paramount, and the leaders had to be respected, and be good enough to be respected. That's why there's currently things like a big push to somewhat equalize the prosperity that's been mostly evident on the coastal provinces. where once something like the Great Leap Forward was espoused on ideological grounds, with little care placed on how people suffered from it, there's now plenty of infrastructural work done in the hinterlands where there is yet to be much justification in terms of recouping costs. A lot of this kind of activity is precisely to deter the kind of popular sentiment that drove the students to Tiananmen Square to begin with. End result: the China of now is a very different country from the China of 1989. The amount of wealth visible on the coasts would have been undreamt of back then, as with perhaps the amount of non-political freedoms. Also, it's probably a lot more unified and stable than it has been in centuries, and the central government is very popular. No, China isn't exactly paradise on earth, but it's a lot better now than it was 20 years ago; and it's immeasurably better now than it was 30 or 40 years ago.
Good point! If the CCP hadn't learnt we wouldn't have a large number of Chinese cosplayers at Comiket, or Chinese hackers cracking DRMs to bring us expensive media and technology. China opened up much, but they exercised too much restraint in the wrong areas.

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Oh, by the way, anyone who thinks that there's going to be some spontaneous uprising in China is being hopelessly naive. Unless things change to the degree where current conditions no longer apply at all, we're more likely to see a civil war in the U.S. first (and that's only about as likely as the Easter Bunny turning out to be real ).
OT : You are weird. Easter bunnygirlsies DO exist. It is just that they didn't hide any eggs for me because I am supposed to be too old for that.

I wouldn't want an uprising at this time. Right now China is the base of the world economy with the Western economic pillars collapsing, any "social reform" could probably shallow our pockets for a few years more than it already should.
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Old 2009-05-28, 05:03   Link #118
Jazzrat
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Originally Posted by SaintessHeart View Post
I guess that has to do with the stupidity of wanting face (personal pride) preserved. It is an Eastern tradition and rather stupid, considering that they would rather do something unbelievable others than to look stupid by admitting to their own mistakes, e.g (stereotypical, but true to an extent), the Japanese have seppuku, the Chinese have scapegoating and the Mideastern extremists strap bombs to themselves and become roadkill victims.

Such still exists today. That is why most of us studying here don't engage in Current Affairs in class. Losing face doesn't really matter, neither does apology. It is all about the importance of learning from mistakes,
Personal and family reputation dominates a lot of eastern culture. It's cultural difference, not an idealogical one if you compare China vs democractic nations like S. Korea and Japan. A democratic China will just make the same decision as a Communist China.

While it's absurd at times, it does force a person to be responsible for their action since the consequences isn't limited to just one person.

A good example is the corporate management difference between Japanese company and US company where generally there are more Japanese top managements willing to take on personal responsibilities for the company's situation than their US counterpart.

A nation/organization reputation though is very important when it comes to influencing other others. Someone with a good record is more likely to get their policy across to others than someone who doesn't.

Although for CCP, their method of cover up and operation are still outdated. Government propaganda nowdays is more about information manipulation than information control. The more they tried to censor information, the more suspicious people become.

Quote:
I wouldn't want an uprising at this time. Right now China is the base of the world economy with the Western economic pillars collapsing, any "social reform" could probably shallow our pockets for a few years more than it already should.
I wouldnt wish an uprising on any country. It's a destructive process to change a government and affects everyone especially in a global economy. Loss of investor confidence, market plumenting, disruption of export and import and in worst case, damaging the public utilities (via riots). Very rarely does uprising doesn't turn violent. Even most protests around the world have a tendency to draw out the anarchistic elements (france immigrant youth riot).

The best course for China right now imo, is to further strengthen it's central government control on other province and impose/enforce their national policy stringently. A lot of corruptions issues and industrial mishaps these days are due to their poor control on other ministry/provincial government and allowed them to cover up all these error for so long until it blew up on international level. If China couldnt even exercise it's policy with a communist government, there's less chance of them doing it in a democratic government.
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Last edited by Jazzrat; 2009-05-28 at 05:24.
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Old 2009-05-28, 07:15   Link #119
Thingle
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Join Date: Aug 2007
Location: Imperial Manila, Philippines
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Originally Posted by Jazzrat View Post

If China couldnt even exercise it's policy with a communist government, there's less chance of them doing it in a democratic government.
Lol man, they're as communist as I'm a muffin. The best way to usurp them is a major economic catastrophe they couldn't handle. Of course, the democrats need to pander towards the interests of the Westerners who invested a lot. Show them you'll guarantee the existence of their eggs, they'll support you in no time.
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Old 2009-05-28, 08:02   Link #120
yezhanquan
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Join Date: Oct 2006
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Age: 28
The CCP are smart in this aspect, as they subscribe to "old wealth": manufacturing, infrastructure building, that kind of stuff, unlike the West, which spent the last 5 years creating money out of thin air, and have little lasting value.
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