AnimeSuki Forums

Register Forum Rules FAQ Members List Social Groups Search Today's Posts Mark Forums Read

Go Back   AnimeSuki Forum > Anime Discussion > Older Series > Retired > Valkyria Chronicles

Notices

Closed Thread
 
Thread Tools
Old 2009-05-21, 15:46   Link #21
4Tran
Senior Member
 
 
Join Date: Dec 2005
Quote:
Originally Posted by Yu Ominae View Post
Not sure on the figures if they're before or after the militia. It's too vague. Sega wasn't clear on this.
Seeing how Valkyria Chronicles is very much a strategy-lite game/anime, it's not surprising that the points like this aren't all that detailed.

Quote:
Originally Posted by kalbron View Post
Actually the Imperials are probably closer to Nazi Germany at the begining of WW2 with all the technological advances made during WW2 by all sides. They are seriously leaps and bounds ahead of everyone else, except, of course, Professor Theimer who was something like Gallia's mix between Einstein and all the greatest weaponry designers in history.
Heh. Germany wasn't more technologically advanced than France, Britain, the USA and the USSR at the beginning of World War II. As for the Empire, I assume that we're going to be seeing some signs of its technological superiority later on right? So far, Gallia seems to be on par or better than them.

Quote:
Originally Posted by kalbron View Post
Actually it makes perfect sense actually... well maybe not perfect. You see there are two major factors to take into account here:

1) Maximillian is very very very patient. He's been waiting ~15 years for revenge, knows he has the superior force, and mentioned a key facet of his desires for taking Gallia in episode 7. He didn't want to invade any faster and further until he learned that in case he potentially harmed it.
That really doesn't address my point. A country that's losing a war has a certain sense of urgency about it, and this urgency is quite lacking from everything we've seen about Gallia and its forces.

Thinking about it, if Maximillian (I'm assuming that he's the Imperial theatre commander) had a particular objective that he wanted to capture intact, then his best bet would have been to destroy the Gallian military quickly, before it had a chance to mobilize the Militia. A Deep Battle operation should suffice seeing that Gallia doesn't seem to have the strategic depth to counter it.

Quote:
Originally Posted by kalbron View Post
During the war? I would suggest that they primarily don't. If they do, they would likely come from the ranks of nobles and any trained men that they bring with them into the regulars. Yes it's stupid. Yes it's inefficient. But it's Damon!
My point is a bit more directed than that. How would the Regulars go about replacing the losses they took trying to capture that bridge or the supply base? It's not as if there's going to be extra bodies of trained soldiers just sitting around. I do see what the creators are trying to portray, but I can't see it holding up to much scrutiny.
__________________
The victorious strategist only seeks battle after the victory has been won...
4Tran is offline  
Old 2009-05-26, 15:34   Link #22
cloner4000
Senior Member
 
 
Join Date: Jan 2009
Quote:
Originally Posted by 4Tran View Post
Seeing how Valkyria Chronicles is very much a strategy-lite game/anime, it's not surprising that the points like this aren't all that detailed.


Heh. Germany wasn't more technologically advanced than France, Britain, the USA and the USSR at the beginning of World War II. As for the Empire, I assume that we're going to be seeing some signs of its technological superiority later on right? So far, Gallia seems to be on par or better than them.


That really doesn't address my point. A country that's losing a war has a certain sense of urgency about it, and this urgency is quite lacking from everything we've seen about Gallia and its forces.

Thinking about it, if Maximillian (I'm assuming that he's the Imperial theatre commander) had a particular objective that he wanted to capture intact, then his best bet would have been to destroy the Gallian military quickly, before it had a chance to mobilize the Militia. A Deep Battle operation should suffice seeing that Gallia doesn't seem to have the strategic depth to counter it.


My point is a bit more directed than that. How would the Regulars go about replacing the losses they took trying to capture that bridge or the supply base? It's not as if there's going to be extra bodies of trained soldiers just sitting around. I do see what the creators are trying to portray, but I can't see it holding up to much scrutiny.


I think that during WWII, USA and France military technology are quite a bit behind in most part comparatively to Germany. Their tank design are all toward small tanks and aren't very mobile...It is not till after the 1942 that USA really begin to develop some really good weapons and technology.

Russia's military is practically gutted by Stalin so they are woefully inexperienced at the beginning.

In term of VCweaponry. small arms are design along the lines that Gallian focus a bit more on accuracy where Imperial focus more on pure attacking power.

Gallian's tank are pathetic excuse for tanks..they armor and firepower are probably on par with Imperial light tank, but anything bigger med. Heavy, Tank destroy will swept through them no problem.


Well, in term of their offense during the game...they first try to seize the bridge for a quick victory, but since that failed and the majority of their force is now across the river defending the capital. any river crossing assault would likely prove too costly. So Maximilian decides to shift his attention north to capture fouzen to secure a supply of ragnite while at the same time cripple the Gallian military.

Fouzen didn't fall till later and in episode 8 of the anime, so while Empire swept through the border and the open ground..they are still pushing against the lines

Even though Gallian is in danger...Damon concerns himself more with personal honor and gain than the actual danger. It's quite clear if you play the game and I think int he Anime that he just want to reg. Military to take all the credit.


The Gallian army have 80,000 man..the loss at vasel bridge and at Kloden probably number thousands at best...since Empire uses blitzkrieg tactics..there isn't much war of attrition so both side still have most of their forces.

Although I think the reg militia high-ranked officers are the one with the attitude.
cloner4000 is offline  
Old 2009-05-27, 18:26   Link #23
4Tran
Senior Member
 
 
Join Date: Dec 2005
Quote:
Originally Posted by cloner4000
I think that during WWII, USA and France military technology are quite a bit behind in most part comparatively to Germany. Their tank design are all toward small tanks and aren't very mobile...It is not till after the 1942 that USA really begin to develop some really good weapons and technology.
I beg to differ. In the early part of 1941, Germany had small tanks as well, the anti-tank PzKpfw III and 38(t)s all being just armed with 37mm guns markedly inferior to the French Somua S35 and Char II bis tanks. In fact, when French and German armor clashed directly, the German tanks tended to get thrashed - it was their inability to sustain them in the battlefield that proved to be their downfall. Where the Germans excelled was in doctrine and operational skill, not their technology. As for the Americans, it's more a matter of their armored forces being all but nonexistent rather than their being technological inferior.

On a bit of an off note, the French tanks are notable for having poor ergonomics, especially with undermanned turrets. This is a similar problem that Edelweiss faces if the only crew are Isara and Welkin (who the heck is manning the turret when Welkin isn't buttoned-up?).

Quote:
Originally Posted by cloner4000
In term of VCweaponry. small arms are design along the lines that Gallian focus a bit more on accuracy where Imperial focus more on pure attacking power.
The lack of an MG42-equivalent still makes me sad.

Quote:
Originally Posted by cloner4000
Gallian's tank are pathetic excuse for tanks..they armor and firepower are probably on par with Imperial light tank, but anything bigger med. Heavy, Tank destroy will swept through them no problem.
Then it's obvious what mistake they're making - Gallia is on the defensive, so they shouldn't be relying on their tanks at all to engage enemy armor. Instead, they should set up good defensive positions so that the Imperials waste all their tanks against Gallian anti-tank guns and artillery.

Quote:
Originally Posted by cloner4000
Well, in term of their offense during the game...they first try to seize the bridge for a quick victory, but since that failed and the majority of their force is now across the river defending the capital. any river crossing assault would likely prove too costly. So Maximilian decides to shift his attention north to capture fouzen to secure a supply of ragnite while at the same time cripple the Gallian military.

Fouzen didn't fall till later and in episode 8 of the anime, so while Empire swept through the border and the open ground..they are still pushing against the lines

Even though Gallian is in danger...Damon concerns himself more with personal honor and gain than the actual danger. It's quite clear if you play the game and I think int he Anime that he just want to reg. Military to take all the credit.


The Gallian army have 80,000 man..the loss at vasel bridge and at Kloden probably number thousands at best...since Empire uses blitzkrieg tactics..there isn't much war of attrition so both side still have most of their forces.

Although I think the reg militia high-ranked officers are the one with the attitude.
I'm a bit confused here. From all indications, the main thrust is in the North, right? In that case, why would being bogged down in the South matter all that much?

On top of that, successful blitzkrieg operations will inflict more casualties on the defender quickly than attritional warfare would (and potentially incur more casualties for the attacker as well). Overall, attritional warfare operation generally have more casualties in comparison, but only because their length is measured in months rather than the weeks of blitzkrieg maneuvers. If Maximillian is doing well as he was posited to, then the Gallian forces would have suffered heavy losses as their front line formations get depleted rapidly. As such, there should be a lot of pressure for the Gallian high command to make up their losses. Even if the Empire wasn't utilizing blitzkrieg, Gallia should still have to deal with this problem unless the war is extremely quiet - any high-intensity conflict will see something like an 80,000 strong force get whittled down in short order.

And really, the Imperial attack doesn't resemble the German blitzkrieg very much in the first place. Blitzkrieg is characterized by a fast tempo of operation, with quick advances of mechanized forces behind the main defensive lines. We haven't seen any of that directly, nor have we seen the effects that such an attack should engender. Instead, we're seeing largely positional posturing and more limited offensive moves. Heck, the front is so calm that Squad 7 doesn't even have to occupy a position opposite Imperial positions, and both sides are free enough that they can spend time doing sight-seeing and so forth.
__________________
The victorious strategist only seeks battle after the victory has been won...
4Tran is offline  
Old 2009-05-27, 23:21   Link #24
kalbron
Senior Member
 
Join Date: Nov 2006
Well that's primarily because the anime majorly screwed things up.

Vasel Bridge had multiple Light Tank Companies stationed on/around it. During the game mission, there are about... ~10 to 20 inactive tanks and four crewed ones. There were ragnarite fuel storage cells everywhere.

Basically, it looked exactly like you would expect the end result of a blitzkreig offensive to be when they had reached their primary objective. Heck, the only reason Squad 7 survived was because when they captured the bridge, they opened it... and dumped another light tank company into the river.

So yeah. The anime wasn't a blitz, but the game certainly had it. And the end result of the game was that the Imperials got a very, very, very bloody nose from it, so altered their plans.
kalbron is offline  
Old 2009-05-27, 23:35   Link #25
4Tran
Senior Member
 
 
Join Date: Dec 2005
I'm a lot less concerned with how many casualties the Gallians are depicted as suffering. I always go under the assumption that we're only seeing a snapshot of the larger operations, so what shows up in the anime isn't that big a deal. What is a big deal to me is how the characters are depicted compared to the situation they're supposedly in. If Gallia was on the verge of losing this war, or if they're in somewhat dire straits, then I expect that to be reflected by the characters' actions and responses. That attack on the supply depot would have to be one of the very few counterattacks that Gallia could pull off in that case, and some sense of desperation is called for. Since we didn't get any of that, it makes it looks as if Gallia isn't in any danger at all, and given the size of the country, one would have to wonder at why Maximillian is posited as some sort of military genius.

As for the game showing the Imperials taking a beating at the end, that's sort of an obvious outcome .
__________________
The victorious strategist only seeks battle after the victory has been won...
4Tran is offline  
Old 2009-05-27, 23:48   Link #26
cloner4000
Senior Member
 
 
Join Date: Jan 2009
Quote:
Originally Posted by 4Tran View Post
I'm a lot less concerned with how many casualties the Gallians are depicted as suffering. I always go under the assumption that we're only seeing a snapshot of the larger operations, so what shows up in the anime isn't that big a deal. What is a big deal to me is how the characters are depicted compared to the situation they're supposedly in. If Gallia was on the verge of losing this war, or if they're in somewhat dire straits, then I expect that to be reflected by the characters' actions and responses. That attack on the supply depot would have to be one of the very few counterattacks that Gallia could pull off in that case, and some sense of desperation is called for. Since we didn't get any of that, it makes it looks as if Gallia isn't in any danger at all, and given the size of the country, one would have to wonder at why Maximillian is posited as some sort of military genius.

As for the game showing the Imperials taking a beating at the end, that's sort of an obvious outcome .
Well I guess you had a point there..but for the game designers to put Pz Div bigger than Corps...I doubt they have a military expert as a adviser to help them.
cloner4000 is offline  
Old 2009-05-28, 00:38   Link #27
kalbron
Senior Member
 
Join Date: Nov 2006
You missed my point. The Imperials lost a hell of a lot of tanks and men in one operation at the Vassel Bridge. That was what I meant by their bloody nose. A loss of that size would make nearly any commander sit up and go "... right, well, that tactic didn't go so well. Bring me the drawing board!"

Besides, one of the features of the game is that it's being told from the perspective of someone reading a novel regarding events that happened quite some time ago. I suppose it's only typical then that it would lack the sense of urgency that should exist.
kalbron is offline  
Old 2009-05-28, 00:47   Link #28
4Tran
Senior Member
 
 
Join Date: Dec 2005
Quote:
Originally Posted by kalbron View Post
You missed my point. The Imperials lost a hell of a lot of tanks and men in one operation at the Vassel Bridge. That was what I meant by their bloody nose. A loss of that size would make nearly any commander sit up and go "... right, well, that tactic didn't go so well. Bring me the drawing board!"
Ah, I see - so the Light Tank Companies are Imperial tanks. Still that doesn't change my point all that much. I presume that there were two main theatres of operation - the South where Squad 7 is station, and where the majority of what we've seen so far takes place, and the North where Maximillian is making like gangbusters, taking objectives "4 days ahead of schedule". It's this latter part which doesn't at all seem to match the feel of the show.

Quote:
Originally Posted by kalbron View Post
Besides, one of the features of the game is that it's being told from the perspective of someone reading a novel regarding events that happened quite some time ago. I suppose it's only typical then that it would lack the sense of urgency that should exist.
That explanation doesn't work at all. I read accounts of what it's like to be on the receiving end of a blitzkreig all the time, and the effects are devastating even for accounts written hundreds of kilometers away from the action.
__________________
The victorious strategist only seeks battle after the victory has been won...
4Tran is offline  
Old 2009-05-28, 01:43   Link #29
kalbron
Senior Member
 
Join Date: Nov 2006
Well it entirely depends upon what the focus of the account is doesn't it?

"On The Gallian Front" isn't exactly the most... impartial account of war given who writes it.
kalbron is offline  
Old 2009-06-18, 17:17   Link #30
Yu Ominae
ARCAM Spriggan agent
 
 
Join Date: Dec 2007
Location: Coquitlam, BC, Canada/Quezon City, Philippines
Send a message via Yahoo to Yu Ominae
Found something interesting.



The image up there shows the map of the Europan continent with the country name "POLAND".
__________________

Even if we were at odds with each other, I still thank you for training me, Instructor Bowman - Yu Ominae, reflecting on Bowman's death after killing him in Phantom Island
Yu Ominae is offline  
Old 2009-06-18, 18:38   Link #31
kalbron
Senior Member
 
Join Date: Nov 2006
Heh. I'm guessing that was more a mistake on the animator's part than any intentional act. After all, they probably looked up a WW2-style military map and told them "Copy this."
kalbron is offline  
Old 2009-06-18, 19:05   Link #32
Tak
Banned
 
 
Join Date: Jul 2006
Location: Neu Herzogtum Zeon
Interestingly enough, the nation next to what is supposedly Poland does not say Germany or anything resembling Germany in other languages.

Besides, it could be Foland for all we know

Quote:
Originally Posted by 4Tran View Post
And really, the Imperial attack doesn't resemble the German blitzkrieg very much in the first place. Blitzkrieg is characterized by a fast tempo of operation, with quick advances of mechanized forces behind the main defensive lines. We haven't seen any of that directly, nor have we seen the effects that such an attack should engender. Instead, we're seeing largely positional posturing and more limited offensive moves. Heck, the front is so calm that Squad 7 doesn't even have to occupy a position opposite Imperial positions, and both sides are free enough that they can spend time doing sight-seeing and so forth.
In the game, there were political complications to prevent a quick end to Gallia. First, we have to remember that the Empire was at war with the Federation at the same time it was fighting Gallia. Second, to the Empire, Gallia was nothing more than a sideshow where the Imperial military expected to end with just minimal provisions. Never mind the fact that Max wasn't exactly what the Imperial household would consider to be a hopeful character. Later on, Max did venture very, very deep into Gallian territory, but even so, he did not simply obliterate Gallia to nothingness, because as it will be revealed later on in the anime, he had agendas of his own.

- Tak
Tak is offline  
Old 2009-06-18, 22:12   Link #33
Yu Ominae
ARCAM Spriggan agent
 
 
Join Date: Dec 2007
Location: Coquitlam, BC, Canada/Quezon City, Philippines
Send a message via Yahoo to Yu Ominae
Quote:
Originally Posted by Tak View Post
Interestingly enough, the nation next to what is supposedly Poland does not say Germany or anything resembling Germany in other languages.

Besides, it could be Foland for all we know

- Tak
You could be right.
__________________

Even if we were at odds with each other, I still thank you for training me, Instructor Bowman - Yu Ominae, reflecting on Bowman's death after killing him in Phantom Island
Yu Ominae is offline  
Old 2009-06-19, 01:59   Link #34
don_Durandal
Zetsubou gunsou
 
 
Join Date: May 2009
Location: Switzerland
Age: 33
Quote:
Originally Posted by Yu Ominae View Post
Found something interesting.



The image up there shows the map of the Europan continent with the country name "POLAND".
They just recycle old historical maps as props. In one of the earlier episodes there's a map of Gaul before Julius Caesar's invasion in the Gallian Headquarters.
don_Durandal is offline  
Old 2009-06-19, 07:25   Link #35
Tak
Banned
 
 
Join Date: Jul 2006
Location: Neu Herzogtum Zeon
Quote:
Originally Posted by don_Durandal View Post
They just recycle old historical maps as props. In one of the earlier episodes there's a map of Gaul before Julius Caesar's invasion in the Gallian Headquarters.
If it was Caesar's invasion of Gaul, then its a gimmick, or some could consider it an easter-egg.

After all, it should be noted that the name Welkin Gunther was based on the historical character of Vercingetorix (werkiŋˈɡetoriks), while Alicia was based on the famous siege of Alesia, where the king of Gaul finally surrendered to Julius.

- Tak
Tak is offline  
Old 2009-06-19, 10:23   Link #36
don_Durandal
Zetsubou gunsou
 
 
Join Date: May 2009
Location: Switzerland
Age: 33
Quote:
Originally Posted by Tak View Post
After all, it should be noted that the name Welkin Gunther was based on the historical character of Vercingetorix (werkiŋˈɡetoriks), while Alicia was based on the famous siege of Alesia, where the king of Gaul finally surrendered to Julius.
Being used to the French pronunciation of Vercingétorix and Alésia I didn't realise that at all. Once you try to pronounce it with katakanas and Japanese accent it makes really sense. Kudos on the find

It ties in with the country being called Gallia and all.
don_Durandal is offline  
Old 2009-06-19, 15:05   Link #37
KiraYamatoFan
Senior Member
 
 
Join Date: Jan 2005
Location: Montreal, QC, Canada
Age: 31
Quote:
Originally Posted by Tak View Post
If it was Caesar's invasion of Gaul, then its a gimmick, or some could consider it an easter-egg.

After all, it should be noted that the name Welkin Gunther was based on the historical character of Vercingetorix (werkiŋˈɡetoriks), while Alicia was based on the famous siege of Alesia, where the king of Gaul finally surrendered to Julius.

- Tak
Since Maximilian looks like Julius Ceasar with the crown and the same ambition of conquests in order to gain absolute power over other "rivals", it's a very interesting analogy you brought up here.

Since we speak of Gallia as where this country might stand in that fictional portrayal of Europe, it's quite difficult to determine exactly where since there's a desert popping out of nowhere in episode 8. However, I wouldn't be surprised if Gallia took its main inspiration from France (for its royal court, with a Richelieu-like prime minister) and Germany (mainly the villages and other scenery).

Meanwhile, I wonder how come we haven't seen much of the Western Federation forces. I would sure want to see them to give myself an idea of what country they were inspired from.
KiraYamatoFan is offline  
Old 2009-06-19, 18:10   Link #38
Tak
Banned
 
 
Join Date: Jul 2006
Location: Neu Herzogtum Zeon
Quote:
Originally Posted by don_Durandal View Post
Being used to the French pronunciation of Vercingétorix and Alésia I didn't realise that at all. Once you try to pronounce it with katakanas and Japanese accent it makes really sense. Kudos on the find

It ties in with the country being called Gallia and all.
Quote:
Originally Posted by KiraYamatoFan View Post
Since Maximilian looks like Julius Ceasar with the crown and the same ambition of conquests in order to gain absolute power over other "rivals", it's a very interesting analogy you brought up here.
When I played the game, Caesar's campaign into inner Gaul was the first thing that popped into my mind the moment I saw Max. It wasn't long until the official VC blog confirmed this.

Quote:
Originally Posted by KiraYamatoFan View Post
Since we speak of Gallia as where this country might stand in that fictional portrayal of Europe, it's quite difficult to determine exactly where since there's a desert popping out of nowhere in episode 8. However, I wouldn't be surprised if Gallia took its main inspiration from France (for its royal court, with a Richelieu-like prime minister) and Germany (mainly the villages and other scenery).
Its not difficult to pinpoint the location of Gallia, really. Gallia in fact, covers present-day Lithuania and bits of Russia. Nordic countries do not exist in the fictional VC universe. On the other hand, while Gallia's court may have been heavily inspired by historical France (c'mon, Napoleon on unicorn?), there can be no mistake that its military is definitely German.

Quote:
Originally Posted by KiraYamatoFan View Post
Meanwhile, I wonder how come we haven't seen much of the Western Federation forces. I would sure want to see them to give myself an idea of what country they were inspired from.
Unfortunately, the Federation was largely absent from the game. I am hoping that they do make a presence in the second game, though.

- Tak
Tak is offline  
Old 2009-06-23, 08:58   Link #39
4Tran
Senior Member
 
 
Join Date: Dec 2005
Quote:
Originally Posted by Tak View Post
In the game, there were political complications to prevent a quick end to Gallia. First, we have to remember that the Empire was at war with the Federation at the same time it was fighting Gallia. Second, to the Empire, Gallia was nothing more than a sideshow where the Imperial military expected to end with just minimal provisions. Never mind the fact that Max wasn't exactly what the Imperial household would consider to be a hopeful character. Later on, Max did venture very, very deep into Gallian territory, but even so, he did not simply obliterate Gallia to nothingness, because as it will be revealed later on in the anime, he had agendas of his own.
I don't have a problem with the Empire bogging down in Gallia per se. It's just that if they were fighting a successful campaign (four days ahead of schedule, etc.) and Maximillian was a militargy genius, then a small country like that should have collapsed. That it didn't means that the Empire didn't pull off a successful blitzkrieg, and that the golden boy isn't some sor of military genius. I know that the anime is trying to have its cake and eat it too, but it just doesn't work that way.

Quote:
Originally Posted by KiraYamatoFan View Post
Since we speak of Gallia as where this country might stand in that fictional portrayal of Europe, it's quite difficult to determine exactly where since there's a desert popping out of nowhere in episode 8. However, I wouldn't be surprised if Gallia took its main inspiration from France (for its royal court, with a Richelieu-like prime minister) and Germany (mainly the villages and other scenery).
I don't think that any direct analogies are forthcoming since Gallia (and the Empire for that matter) is purposefully a mishmash of a number of European countries with an attendant number of asynchronicities. Instead, it's easier to focus on smaller details and elements, and Gallia and the Empire feel more like Germany and Imperial Russia respectively than anything else.
__________________
The victorious strategist only seeks battle after the victory has been won...
4Tran is offline  
Old 2009-06-26, 08:25   Link #40
4Tran
Senior Member
 
 
Join Date: Dec 2005
Moved posts about Maximillian to http://forums.animesuki.com/showthread.php?t=82277 as they're mostly about him, and his thread was looking a bit lonely.
__________________
The victorious strategist only seeks battle after the victory has been won...
4Tran is offline  
Closed Thread

Thread Tools

Posting Rules
You may not post new threads
You may not post replies
You may not post attachments
You may not edit your posts

BB code is On
Smilies are On
[IMG] code is On
HTML code is Off

Forum Jump


All times are GMT -5. The time now is 23:25.


Powered by vBulletin® Version 3.8.7
Copyright ©2000 - 2014, vBulletin Solutions, Inc.
We use Silk.