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Old 2009-05-27, 20:52   Link #101
Alchemist007
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Old 2009-05-27, 21:18   Link #102
WanderingKnight
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Quote:
they're telling us:
(Us = people who had changes to their body while they were babies)
what we're meant to think and feel.
Umm, no, what I think I was trying to say is that some people simply might not like the fact that they've been put through an unnecessary surgical procedure that removed a part of their penis. Whether it's a small subset of the population, or whether you care or not (hardly I can see you caring given that you're a woman, though ) is irrelevant. As long as some people, at least, care (and some do), it's enough to call it completely pointless to do that to a baby who has no say in the decision.

(Plus, again you're equating a simple earring to the surgical removal of part of your genitals).

And nice jab at calling me young and naive, by the way. I've met many older people who are, frankly speaking, much more naive than me, thank you very much.
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Old 2009-05-27, 21:57   Link #103
cheyannew
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Quote:
Originally Posted by justsomeguy View Post
Interesting. It sounds like you've never been with an uncut guy, but for some reason you're already concluding that you'll do less for him. Do you even know what an uncut **** looks like?
Of course I do; if you actually went back and read my previous posts in the topic, you will note I mentioned my partner's son is uncircumcised. Your assumptions are, as usual, incorrect. It was a tongue in cheek statement, in part, and to be wholly honest, a moot point, as all of my male partners have been (and since I am not seeking any more partners, always will be) circumcised. Yiipee skipee doo for those who aren't, it affects me absopositivelyNONE.

Mayhaps you should open the great book of your mind, and re-read what many others have said. They are not chiding you for your beliefs, I do not feel it is proper to harp on them for theirs. I have not seen a single person go "ZOMG You're not circumcised you're all weird and wrong!!!". You, however, cannot seem to get past YOUR OWN PERSONAL OPINION (albeit shared by others, just as the "opposing" opinion is shared) and say "Ok, well, I see why you feel this way, here's why I felt this way" and just leave it at that. That is the point of a discussion, not to cross your arms over your chest and go "nuh uh, my way is right, you're wrong." That is not a true debate/discussion.

I, for one, am finished with this dead horse brick wall circular "discussion".
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Old 2009-05-27, 22:08   Link #104
blue skies
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Quote:
Originally Posted by justsomeguy View Post
Actually, most parents who choose to circumcise do not do it for health reasons, they see the minimal health benefits as an excuse, they do it for religious reasons or because the father "wants his son to look like him," or because they are under the impression that chopping off a body part that all males are born with is what most other people do
I'd like to know where you heard that most people do it for cultural or religious purposes and disguise it with health benefits.

I don't know about others, but most people I know who have made the decision to circumcise their sons have done so purely for health purposes or the sake of convenience, not thinly disguised religious views. I'm aware that some people choose to do it for religious reasons, and I respect that.

I'm not so sure people do it out of tradition either, but rather for convenience as much as anything. If some boy's father was circumcised and didn't know how to teach his son to take care of that area properly, I can understand perfectly why he would want to have his son circumcised too. They think it'll make it easier on the kid not to have to wash and worry about some extra skin all the time, and it takes away (or greatly reduces) some potential health risks. Regardless, they have their kids' future and best interests at heart. Just like people who choose not to circumcise have their kids' future and best interest at heart.

Quote:
However, testimony from those circumsized as adults do show less sensation. Just because guys cut as babies don't know what they are missing is no excuse.
Yes, but as several people mentioned upthread, a circumcised man may be able to counter that by saying that he can last longer, and unless I've been hallucinating I think someone posted a quote from some article saying circumcised men may experience a more intense orgasm. I'm sorry, but I don't really see the point of this particular argument; sex is sex, it's still going to feel good whether or not you're only getting 85% of the sensation of some uncut dude. Honestly, I never even knew circumcised guys could be missing out on much before I read this thread. Like I said, it certainly doesn't seem to inhibit them or keep any of them from getting their kicks.

Bottom line is, I just don't see why it's such a big deal. We all have our "free will" taken away as children, and it's been discussed ad nauseum in this thread. The only people I see in here who are outraged by the whole thing are uncircumcised guys. It seems to be a non-issue for the rest. I can't help but agree with the majority and say some of you guys are making mountains out of molehills; no one else seems to care.

Quote:
I'm glad the guys around you are comfortable about themselves. However, there are also many who regret that they were cut as babies, before they had a choice. Why not let your hypothetical son decide for himself when he's old enough to understand?
Because he is my hypothetical son, and he'll do what I say, dammit.

All joking aside, I would do it for health purposes (and no, I'm not religious in the least, so I can't use "For his health!!11!" to mask beliefs I don't even have). I'm also going to say, I really haven't met a guy who wishes he still had his foreskin. And I'm very aware that there are some out there, but they don't exactly seem to run rampant or go around telling everyone how they've been "mutilated". Somehow, I doubt it's something many men even think about until someone tells them to. I'm not saying at all that they're not out there (maybe they're just not very vocal?), I'm just saying that most guys don't seem to give a flying fig whether they're cut or not. And I'm willing to bet ten bucks the majority of women don't care too much either.

Regarding my hypothetical son again, I would rather have him circumcised when he's very young and not going to remember it than have him decide he wants it when he's older and put him through some serious trauma. To me, the potential benefits are good enough and the risks are minute enough that I would still have it done. Besides that, convenience would definitely be a consideration. As I said, my boyfriend and future husband was circumcised; he has no experience in cleaning that area and has never had to deal with it before. Is he going to know what to do and be able to help the kid? I sure as hell wouldn't be of any help in that area. I'd rather have it done and not have to worry about that + potential for poor hygiene, infection and other problems later on. If I decided not to go through with it and taught him everything he needs to know blablabla, and he decided to keep the skin in question, that'd be fine and dandy too -- but the fact that neither of us knows how to deal with it is an issue. For me, personally, the benefits outweigh the risks. And I think that's the case for a lot of people.

Of course, if I get my son circumcised and he feels that I took away his free will, that I violated him and mutilated him beyond repair and caused him hardcore psychological trauma and a loss of sensation down there, he can get his circumcised buddies together and they can call the U.N. on my sorry ass and hate me forever.

(But chances are, he'll be understanding that I took such liberties and had his health and best interests in mind.)

Quote:
Some parents also choose not to vaccinate their kids. Just because they feel one way or another doesn't make them right. If circumcision was so beneficial, then explain it to the boy once he is older, and let them make the decision, nothing to lose!
And I can respect that some parents choose not to vaccinate their kids. I can understand why they have reservations about some of the shots that are out there. Just like I can respect that some parents choose not to circumcise their kids for loads of reasons and don't agree with my reasoning for having the procedure done for my hypothetical son.

Your lives, your kids' penises, none of my business.

And with that, I think I'm out. I've spent way too much time talking about some skin on penises, and this place is getting just a tad too hostile, even for me.
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Old 2009-05-27, 22:10   Link #105
justsomeguy
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Quote:
Originally Posted by cheyannew View Post
Of course I do; if you actually went back and read my previous posts in the topic, you will note I mentioned my partner's son is uncircumcised. Your assumptions are, as usual, incorrect. It was a tongue in cheek statement, in part, and to be wholly honest, a moot point, as all of my male partners have been (and since I am not seeking any more partners, always will be) circumcised. Yiipee skipee doo for those who aren't, it affects me absopositivelyNONE.

Mayhaps you should open the great book of your mind, and re-read what many others have said. They are not chiding you for your beliefs, I do not feel it is proper to harp on them for theirs. I have not seen a single person go "ZOMG You're not circumcised you're all weird and wrong!!!". You, however, cannot seem to get past YOUR OWN PERSONAL OPINION (albeit shared by others, just as the "opposing" opinion is shared) and say "Ok, well, I see why you feel this way, here's why I felt this way" and just leave it at that. That is the point of a discussion, not to cross your arms over your chest and go "nuh uh, my way is right, you're wrong." That is not a true debate/discussion.

I, for one, am finished with this dead horse brick wall circular "discussion".
Given that your tone implies that you think modifying a person's body without their consent is funny, I have no respect for you or your beliefs.

Given that not to having one's body violated without consent is a human right, as far as I'm concerned circumcision advocates are morally wrong in every single way. Given that their beliefs affect defenseless infant boys, whom they believe do not have the right to bodily integrity, I oppose them in every way.

You have contributed nothing other than a tongue-in-cheek remark about your own prejudice against uncut guys, and a wishy-washy "I don't care, can't we all get along" opinion.
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Old 2009-05-27, 22:32   Link #106
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Quote:
Originally Posted by blue skies View Post
I'd like to know where you heard that most people do it for cultural or religious purposes and disguise it with health benefits.
Circumcision dates all the way back to ancient Egypt, perhaps longer. Given that medical research didn't exist at all back then, how can you argue that people did it for health benefits which they would know absolutely nothing about? Circumcision was originally promoted in the USA as a "cure" for masturbation; clear evidence that it was first mostly done for social/religious attitudes, then continued on because "everybody does it."

Quote:
snip convenience argument
There are books teaching how to maintain an uncut penis. Heck, one can even ask their doctor! It takes seconds to pull back the foreskin and wash underneath. In fact, nobody ever taught me how to wash my penis. It was intuitive and easy to figure out.

Quote:
Yes, but as several people mentioned upthread, a circumcised man may be able to counter that by saying that he can last longer, and unless I've been hallucinating I think someone posted a quote from some article saying circumcised men may experience a more intense orgasm. I'm sorry, but I don't really see the point of this particular argument; sex is sex, it's still going to feel good whether or not you're only getting 85% of the sensation of some uncut dude. Honestly, I never even knew circumcised guys could be missing out on much before I read this thread. Like I said, it certainly doesn't seem to inhibit them or keep any of them from getting their kicks.
Sure, people like it different ways, which is why I generally don't use the better sex argument. You also have women like cheyannew, who apparently have preconceived notions about uncut penises, then either intentionally or subconciously do less while having sex, and then complain that uncut guys are worse.

Quote:
Bottom line is, I just don't see why it's such a big deal. We all have our "free will" taken away as children, and it's been discussed ad nauseum in this thread. The only people I see in here who are outraged by the whole thing are uncircumcised guys. It seems to be a non-issue for the rest. I can't help but agree with the majority and say some of you guys are making mountains out of molehills; no one else seems to care.
You will get your free will back once you're 18 or 21. However, being circumcised will stay with you, unless you risk a somewhat dangerous restorative surgery. You obviously have not met those who want that foreskin restored... saying that they are upset by their own circumcisions is an understatement.

Quote:
I'm also going to say, I really haven't met a guy who wishes he still had his foreskin. And I'm very aware that there are some out there, but they don't exactly seem to run rampant or go around telling everyone how they've been "mutilated". Somehow, I doubt it's something many men even think about until someone tells them to. I'm not saying at all that they're not out there (maybe they're just not very vocal?), I'm just saying that most guys don't seem to give a flying fig whether they're cut or not. And I'm willing to bet ten bucks the majority of women don't care too much either.
Regardless, even one angry cut man is too many. If he had been given a choice, which is what medical consent is all about, he wouldn't be upset in the first place.

Quote:
Regarding my hypothetical son again, I would rather have him circumcised when he's very young and not going to remember it than have him decide he wants it when he's older and put him through some serious trauma. To me, the potential benefits are good enough and the risks are minute enough that I would still have it done. Besides that, convenience would definitely be a consideration. As I said, my boyfriend and future husband was circumcised; he has no experience in cleaning that area and has never had to deal with it before. Is he going to know what to do and be able to help the kid? I sure as hell wouldn't be of any help in that area. I'd rather have it done and not have to worry about that + potential for poor hygiene, infection and other problems later on. If I decided not to go through with it and taught him everything he needs to know blablabla, and he decided to keep the skin in question, that'd be fine and dandy too -- but the fact that neither of us knows how to deal with it is an issue. For me, personally, the benefits outweigh the risks. And I think that's the case for a lot of people.
Is the circumcision for your son's convenience, or your own? And as for the "potential benefits," the rate of penile cancer is 1 in 100000 in the USA, and the rate of circumcision complications is higher. The rest are easily prevented or fixed.

Quote:
And I can respect that some parents choose not to vaccinate their kids. I can understand why they have reservations about some of the shots that are out there.
Even though multiple courts have ruled that the autism fears are a load of bunk and various childhood diseases are making a comeback due to decreased herd immunity? Moreso than circumcision, not vaccinating affects people other than your own family.

Quote:
Just like I can respect that some parents choose not to circumcise their kids for loads of reasons and don't agree with my reasoning for having the procedure done for my hypothetical son. []

Your lives, your kids' penises, none of my business.

And with that, I think I'm out. I've spent way too much time talking about some skin on penises, and this place is getting just a tad too hostile, even for me.
My main disagreement with circumcision is that parents are treating their children's bodies as property that they can mod at will and without consent, rather than young humans with rights and eventually their own lives. Parents should not have the right to change their child's bodies in a way that requires surgery to fix, excluding medical emergencies.
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Old 2009-05-27, 23:56   Link #107
Mystique
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Quote:
Originally Posted by justsomeguy
My main disagreement with circumcision is that parents are treating their children's bodies as property that they can mod at will and without consent, rather than young humans with rights and eventually their own lives. Parents should not have the right to change their child's bodies in a way that requires surgery to fix, excluding medical emergencies.
Then it's a safe guess to assume as a father you will never, ever inject your child with an injection, will not circumcise them, will not give them a name (trust me, I hear more complaints from people about how common or annoying their names are then being freaking circumcised),

Property?
What now, we're things, instead of living beings?
Only people who are against something, will use such negative terms and thoughts to make statements. I assure you, most parents love their kids and would never, ever think of their baby as 'property'
Baby...
You and the rest assume that they're gonna get older to ever make that realisation and then start lamenting and stuff.
Here's a newsflash for you, people die at any age.

And if a child grows up to be respectful, strong willed and has a good command of common sense, who did that?
Their parents.
If a child is told things positively, told things of love and self confidence and respect, who did that?
Their parents.

And then you end up with a fairly happy young adult.

So next time you harp about "parents having no right on their own children", when you have a child, leave it alone.
Do not feed it, do not name it, do not give it vaccinations, do not do anything that the child can decide for themselves when they're older.
What you feed it, that’s taking its "free will" away, that’s “modifying it’s body”; the child's body is gonna react and adapt to whatever food their parents decide on over the first 5 years or so.
In your belief a baby, a toddler, even a child, who cannot live life without the assistance of another human being has "rights"
Yes they do.
Rights that all human beings have, for no severe harm, mental, physical or emotional to come to them.
Circumcision does not do that and as I've seen, you've given up trying to use that card on us as a "valid" argument.
That means you silently agree or just won't admit it.
Aside from that right, they have none.
They are a baby.
What happens to a parent when an adult leaves a kid to fend for themselves.
They get charged with neglect.
With the responsibility of parenting, comes the right to make choices for the child without outright signs of trauma.
Parents have rights too, you know.

If you truly believe otherwise however, then please, by all means let the baby at 0 years old raise itself without dying, get to about what... 10 years old for him to figure out the deal with circumcision and aaaaaaaaall the other decisions a parent makes on behalf of benefiting their child and then you have just a tiny, insy bit of credibility in your disagreement.

A lot of peeps are bowing out, I guess it's time to let it drop and talk to those uncircumcised who are sincerely curious to know what it's like for guys on the other side of the coin to explain to them.
Quote:
Originally Posted by blue skies
Of course, if I get my son circumcised and he feels that I took away his free will, that I violated him and mutilated him beyond repair and caused him hardcore psychological trauma and a loss of sensation down there, he can get his circumcised buddies together and they can call the U.N. on my sorry ass and hate me forever.
*high fives*
xD
I’m down with that, sign me up on that bandwagon. xD

People who don't wanna circumcise their kids are fine.
None of us are saying that's wrong, none of us are saying making a huuuge big negative deal and trying to incite fear and insecurity onto others based on beliefs that we personally have never experienced.
(Which is what most the blue team are doing here)
Please, take some time offline to think about how you're really presenting yourself to the rest of the world on this forum, question yourself, look at the hard ass facts, not just your own personal belief and then make a legitimate claim and not just wild statements based on pure unfounded speculation.
Makes for a really weak stance within a debate.

But... as long as there’s no more:
“Oh dear… Lord! Circumcised men are mutilated and violated! Call the U.N. NAO!!!”
and so on going on around here, then it’s all good.
Quote:
Originally Posted by Knight Hawk View Post
Mystique you're not helping at all, you're whole post nothing but flaming and arrogant, in turn will just piss people off. Lastly about the whole "sensitive" issue; If your terrible in bed, being not so sensitive isn't going to help at all. *plays Missy Elliott's one minute man*
KH, it doesn't help when you're hearing people who've never and probably will never experience such said "atrocity" then condemn another human being based on facts and statistics and "what ifs" (the worst). If I really was going for flaming, seriously?
It'd be along the lines of:
"Condemn the parents for mutilating their kids bodies!"
"You circumcised?"
"No"
"Then GTFO"

- Cause for most situations in life, if you're jumping in like that.... there's a pretty good chance you're gonna get that kinda response.

I don't mind listening to people to don't want to do it. that's fine.
Narona is one who will never do this to her son.
She has heard both sides and can see the good and bad but still stands by her choice.
She is not condemning, nor judging, or going drama queen on us for something she has never experienced nor will ever experience.
Thus lays the real, true annoyance.
It's the uncircumcised guys in here who have been doing that and using all kinds of angles to try to back up their claim and here's the funny, best part of it all.
When the circumcised guys in here who have been saying 'i'm fine, no malice to my parents, I didn't even think of that until you said it', they're still dismissing it and going off on one, it's like... what the hell?
The free will, violation argument doesn't apply to babies and since I fall under that and then hear how "I'm supposed to feel", it does make me twitch.
And the sensitive issue?
Uhh, re read this thread, the uncircumcised guys played that card and all I did was counter it, time and time again.
It's pretty weak, there are way too many men out there having good sex and bad sex, foreskin or not.
Magic in the stick, remember?

(Yes justsomeguy, I read the stats you gave me, thank you and I return to the "every thing in life has a risk, everything." It's a 9/10 situation, aside from the fact that all humans will die, there's not much in life for a 100% guarentee.)
I can give you stats for driving a car and how many people die in road accidents.
I can give you stats for how many people change their names.
I can give you stats for how many kids are raped and violated (that's a true form of human rights taken away from them)
I can give you stats for how many kids received irreversible mental and emotional damage, even if they're old enough to say 'no' - those are things that sometimes no matter how much counselling a person receives cannot ever be rectified.

At the end of the day, the last card you guys are playing is that:
"There are men out there who may feel upset by this."
But what you fail to mention is the number/ratio of those who do to go as far as reversing it, and compare to those all over the world on 5 continents who do this, encourage this, praise this, have faith in this, live happy lives in this and take that into account.
I'm sure if we could gather that data, the good grossly outweighs the bad in terms of those wanting to go for surgery.
Parents do so outta religious belief, faith, custom, culture, health, for reasons I already wrote in my novella as WanderingKnight wanted to know "why is it so widespread"?
Well... that in itself should tell you how the majority of circumcision humanity on planet Earth feel... right?

No matter what reason we give you, it'll never be enough and you'll always see it from a negative angle.
That's fine, but do not condemn nor belittle the choices of parents that way.
We all know it's a knife to our baby son's penis, we all want him to come out better for it, so those who are sensible will do the research or approach a licensed, respectable person.
Quote:
Originally Posted by justsomeguy
You also admit that no grown male would want sharp objects near their penis. So now we know why parents do it to their boys while they are infants. It is intentionally to go against their sons' natural desire not to have their penises damaged. You refuse to admit that intentionally circumventing a person's right to give or withhold consent for medical procedures is unethical, and a violation of his right to his own body.
If a doctor said:
You need to give this child this injection as a prevention for possibly catching said illness and it will hurt for 3 hours.
You can do it while he's 6 months old, or you can do it at 4 years old.
What will you choose?
And please, be honest and tell me why?

Parents who wanna circumcise will circumcise, but they're not so barbaric as to inflict more pain than necessary and thus the blessing of human beings developing no memories or real conscious thought for the first 3 months or so of their life is taken into consideration and used.
That's all there is to it.
And again, please watch your words.
A penis is not damaged. Circumcision is not done with the intent of damaging the full function of a penis.
If it was, this debate wouldn't even exist.
It'd already be global law that circumcison is evil, riots from men would have erupted and the UN would have put it's foot down in Western countries years ago.
Removal of a woman's clitoris?
That on the other hand, needs looking into... seriously *shudders*

PS: narona, I'll reply to your post in your PM and sorry if i felt a little strong towards ya, but I've nothing against you at all
One of the things you quoted about 'it's fine for girls to have ears pierced' was aimed at justsomeguy, not you.
My only dispute with ya, or what I wanted to make clear was that kids will repsect and love their parents for most things. Being circumcised and having ears pierced (in that sense parents "modding" their babies bodies, how crude) aren't factors or even thoughts that most will ever imagine in their lifetime if their parents raised them well with love, affection and all the good that they need to live as decent adults, especially when those two things do not affect us negatively.
We aren't in pain, we're not sad, upset, angry, infact many, many live happy lives, it's natural to us, it's life as we simply know it.
Quote:
Originally Posted by AmoreDoll View Post
I'm really close to my family especially my parents. All I can probably say is that you just have to trust your parents. They're the ones responsible for molding you into the individual you are now.
Can I get an Amen, here?
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Last edited by Mystique; 2009-05-28 at 02:45.
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Old 2009-05-28, 01:30   Link #108
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I'm a girl so pardon me if I appear a bit unsympathetic

I'm really close to my family especially my parents. All I can probably say is that you just have to trust your parents. They're the ones responsible for molding you into the individual you are now. Most parents understand what's best for their kids. Disregard the religious reasons for circumcision and instead focus on health. Being circumcised can help prevent health problems better than being uncircumcised. Honestly speaking, I haven't met anyone yet who's complained about being circumcised. They didn't go ranting about being "violated" They just don't care probably. The important thing is that no one should discriminate those who who aren't circumcised and vice-versa.

@Narona

I think it's fine if you choose not to have your ears pierced I have a close friend who chose not to wear earrings but she has a lot of admirers
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Old 2009-05-28, 01:59   Link #109
justsomeguy
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Mystique View Post
strawmen, misrepresentation, and lies
Parents have every right to name their kids, and raise them to be productive members of society. Vaccination is a matter of life and death, and there is no problem assuming that a baby would want to live.

However, circumcision is different. I have demonstrated that the risk of complications is higher than the risk of penile cancer, and that any other health benefits are redundant or can be easily obtained other ways.

If a person doesn't like his name, he can change it. If a person doesn't like his religion, he can change it. If a person doesn't like his parents' values and behavior, he can act differently.

However a circumcision cannot be changed, at least not without a costly and risky surgery.

Parents have the right to shape their kids' minds. They do not have the right to shape their kids' bodies and inflict harm!

The fact that there are men, whom people like you ignore and discredit, who feel badly about their circumcisions, shows that there was harm done.

Just because a person doesn't complain does not mean his rights were not violated. Would you argue that most slaves complacently working on plantations down South before the Civil War did not have their rights violated? Nevermind the fact that just because most cut man do not complain is not a reason for neonatal circumcision to continue.

Mystique, my respect for you as a person continues to drop the more you try to strawman my arguments. If you cannot prove that circumcision is mostly performed for health reasons, that in fact there are significant health benefits, and that parents have the right to remove healthy, non-abnormal flesh from their infants for non-health reasons, then leave this discussion.
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Old 2009-05-28, 02:04   Link #110
Jazzrat
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Narona View Post
My question still stands. I don't know how many Britons are circumcised, but in France, the percentage is pretty low (I don't remember the exact number, but it's low). So, must French women don't care by default.

So, if most girls in Japan don't care and/or are not curious to "try" to sleep with a guy who is circumcised, then the men should not care imo. At least, they should care about what the women in their country actually complain about, and not about what they don't care for now.

Most french women seem to not care at all ; so there is no reason for the French men to get upset about being circumcised or not......

.......Japaneses are fan of public bathing between men and women ? xD Or do you mean that when men go together in public baths, they compare each other penis? xD
First of all, yes guys do compare dicks when in the nude. Imagine if you're cut and everyone around you is uncut. You ll feel weird. Vice versa in countries where circumcision is widely practiced. Plus, Japan loves to emulate americans. Seeing how many American's were circumcised might have trigger a fad in Japan.

Secondly, guys do compare note sometimes . Not as much as women, but we still talk about it. Still, the girls in Japan do care about it enough that guys are getting the circumcision in order to appeal to them. The country is quite liberal when comes to the subject of sex.

Quote:
Actually, most parents who choose to circumcise do not do it for health reasons, they see the minimal health benefits as an excuse, they do it for religious reasons or because the father "wants his son to look like him," or because they are under the impression that chopping off a body part that all males are born with is what most other people do
For certain religion, yes that is true however, for those who arent affliated as such, their primary concern is their children's health. If given a choice between their children's health and their foreskin, most parents would prioritised their children's health first. In circumcision case though it's not a grave health concern so parents should leave this decision to the kids.

A children's free will and the parent's religion though is a bigger problem. Since young, we were inducted to our parents religion at birth without our knowledge or choice. While kids should have a choice in their religion affliation but that's a choice they can only make at 18/21 when by law they are considered an adult.

Yet, religious teaching plays a big part of educating kids with a set of moral & family values. How receptive would the current generation of parents are willing to separate family values and and religion when educating their children? Should the state really step into this issue?

Quote:
Most parents understand what's best for their kids.
Misunderstanding, lack of credible information can lead to parents making decision that might not be the best for their kids. Circumcision is one of those case where
the benefits are overinflated that might lead some parents. Even when they did it for cosmetics, hoping it would help their kids fit in better, i think we should take into
account that situation can change, being cut might not be the "in" thing when their children grows up.
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Old 2009-05-28, 02:05   Link #111
oompa loompa
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Ouch, I never thought this would get so heated.

Regardless, I do know enough guys who have gotten circumcised after they were teenagers. While, there may be negligible 'health' benefits for doing it when you are a child, it is often one way to get over.. health issues.. and its fine. There are conditions, which unfortunately are caused by bad hygiene, to which the most permanent remedy is to get circumcised. No, I'm not supporting it, but like another poster said (forgive me for not referring !!) there are arguments for both sides, though I would agree ( as an uncircumcised male) that it would be unnecessary.

Having said that I most certainly have never heard any circumcised male complain, I don't see what the issue is if they dont - people have no recollection of it, and I'm fairly sure they dont enjoy sex any less ( I say this without getting into the argument concerning what the child wants). However, if the issue is 'why' are circumcisions done in the US so frequently without religious reasons is another thing altogether - I don't really have the answer, but I would guess because at some time it was assumed that there were serious health benefits, an assumption to which there is a little merit - It can be used to help some conditions after all.


Having saiiiddd that...

When we talk about preferences, especially in the US, I have seen plenty of guys ( when I was younger of course, in the 6th or 7th grade) who say 'eww your not circumcised, thats disgusting!' ( to which I of course replied ' why would i want a piece of my **** chopped off?!?', but lets not get into that distasteful conversation ). Now, in college, or high school I have never, and wouldnt really imagine any guy saying that, even ones who I consider( I dont mean to sound elitist!) insufferably stupid, its just kind of unsaid I guess.

I have however, heard a few of girls in my college saying that they find uncircumcised to be strange, and use some rather funny words to describe it ( I personally love 'flappy') in worse cases, but usually its just 'well I dont really care but I preferr circumcised..' etc etc ( please dont ask why these conversations come up, you know, raging hormones.. it err.. happens). Perhaps this has something to do with why its common, infact, from what I've seen, a lot of guys might actually prefer the fact they're circumcised because of that.

I am sorry if any of that came accross as rude, I dont mean to look down on women or americans for that matter. I am simply speaking from experience and I will admit I have no statistics or data to back up what I'm saying.
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Old 2009-05-28, 02:15   Link #112
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Mystique View Post
KH, it doesn't help when you're hearing people who've never and probably will never experience such said "atrocity" then condemn another human being based on facts and statistics and "what ifs" (the worst). If I really was going for flaming, seriously?
It'd be along the lines of:
"Condemn the parents for mutilating their kids bodies!"
"You circumcised?"
"No"
"Then GTFO"

- Cause for most situations in life, if you're jumping in like that.... a pretty good chance you're gonna get that kinda response.
Yeah, and Southerners argued that Northerners had no right to argue that slavery and segregation was immoral. Human rights is everybody's business.
Quote:
(Yes justsomeguy, I read the stats you gave me, thank you and I return to the "every thing in life has a risk, everything." It's a 9/10 situation, aside from the fact that all humans will die, there's not much in life for a 100% guarentee.)
I can give you stats for driving a car and how many people die in road accidents.
I can give you stats for how many people change their names.
I can give you stats for how many kids are raped and violated (that's a true form of human rights taken away from them)
I can give you stats for how many kids received irreversible mental and emotional damage, even if they're old enough to say 'no' - those are things that sometimes no matter how much counselling a person receives cannot ever be rectified.
Sure life has risks. How does that justify cutting off a body part which poses no risk?
Quote:
At the end of the day, the last card you guys are playing is that:
"There are men out there who may feel upset by this."
But what you fail to mention is the number/ratio of those who do to go as far as reversing it, and compare to those all over the world on 5 continents to do this, encourage this, praise this, have faith in this, live happy lives in this and take that into account.
I'm sure if we could gather that data, the good grossly outweighs the bad in terms of those wanting to go for surgery.
Parents do so outta religious belief, faith, custom, culture, health, for reasons I already wrote in my novella as WanderingKnight wanted to know "why is it so widespread"?
Well... that in itself should tell you how the majority of humanity feel... right?
Given that many men may be embarrassed or trying to suppress themselves, plus the fact that circumcision only became controversial recently, of course there is no data. But we know for a fact that even one single dissatisfied cut man is one whose rights have been violated. You refuse to protect the rights of a minority, even if no harm is done to the majority?
Quote:
No matter what reason we give you, it'll never be enough and you'll always see it from a negative angle.
That's fine, but do not condemn nor belittle the choices of parents that way.
We all know it's a knife to our baby son's penis, we all want him to come out better for it, so those who are sensible will do the research or approach a licensed, respectable person.
Why shouldn't I condemn unnecessary nonconsential surgery that has minimal health benefits?
Quote:
If a doctor said:
You need to give this child this injection as a prevention for possibly catching said illness and it will hurt for 3 hours.
You can do it while he's 6 months old, or you can do it at 4 years old.
What will you choose?
And please, be honest and tell me why?
Sure, why not? Given that babies have weak, inexperienced immune systems, this is a matter of life and death. I can assume that most babies want to live.
Quote:
Parents who wanna circumcise will circumcise, but they're not so barbaric as to inflict more harm than necessary and thus the blessing of human beings developing no memories or real conscious thought for the first 3 months or so of their life is taken into consideration and used.
That's all there is to it.
The idea that babies have no conscious thought for the first 3 months of life is a lie. So is the idea held by many circumcision proponents that babies cannot feel pain, hence no anaesthesia is necessary.

@oompa loompa
Don't worry, your post was pretty accurate and not rude at all. I'm hoping that nobody misunderstood me, but I'm only against nonconsential, neonatal circumcision. If there are serious health issues in an infant that necessitates getting cut, or a consenting teen/adult chooses to get cut, that is perfectly fine.

I'm going to try to sleep (suffering from insomnia). If I don't post it's not because I'm conceding.

Last edited by justsomeguy; 2009-05-28 at 02:22. Reason: responding to new post
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Old 2009-05-28, 02:39   Link #113
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Quote:
Originally Posted by oompa loompa View Post
I have however, heard a few of girls in my college saying that they find uncircumcised to be strange, and use some rather funny words to describe it ( I personally love 'flappy')
These types of notions exist only because circ has become such a norm. I find it sad really. (Though you can trick them by rolling it back before they see it, according to the guy in the P&T vid )
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Old 2009-05-28, 03:16   Link #114
Knight Hawk
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Mystique View Post
KH, it doesn't help when you're hearing people who've never and probably will never experience such said "atrocity" then condemn another human being based on facts and statistics and "what ifs" (the worst). If I really was going for flaming, seriously?
It'd be along the lines of: ...snip....
The whole circumcised and uncircumcised issue is a touchy subject for some. Your emotes about eating popcorn and the first half of your post to be rude considering the subject at hand. The whole "mutilation" issue i don't disagree with you. Taking a female and forcing such act that will effect her physically and mentally is just barbaric. There is a clear difference from that to a parent giving consent to a professional doctor that will remove a piece of skin. I won't say that justsomeguy opinion on the subject is wrong, since i understand his feelings for the infants not having a "say" in the matter. We are removing a piece of skin that might not even need to be removed in the first place. The excuses being given about hygiene is weak (there is no special procedure, just a normal bath/shower with whatever routine you have) and cancer is pretty damn rare. Personally i can careless if your circumcised or not, just please take showers everyday for the love of god.

Quote:
It's pretty weak, there are way too many men out there having good sex and bad sex, foreskin or not.
Magic in the stick, remember?
My fault, should have been more clear with that comment. I meant both circumcised and uncircumcised; if your bad in bed, the benefits ain't going to help.
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Old 2009-05-28, 03:20   Link #115
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Quote:
Originally Posted by justsomeguy View Post
Mystique, my respect for you as a person continues to drop the more you try to strawman my arguments. If you cannot prove that circumcision is mostly performed for health reasons, that in fact there are significant health benefits, and that parents have the right to remove healthy, non-abnormal flesh from their infants for non-health reasons, then leave this discussion.
I'll do one better.

Thread Summary

This topic has just become circular reasoning and aggressive statements. At this point what people have wanted to say on the topic has been said.

Thread Closed.
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