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Old 2009-05-30, 20:38   Link #2021
arkhangelsk
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Originally Posted by Dri View Post
What, no way. D:

StrikerS was all about Nanoha going BLASTER THREE! DIVIIIINE... and then totally stealing the show in the end. Fate and Nanoha's fights had like twice the screentime of the Forward's fights outside. AND FATE HAD AN INSERT SONG. The only 'respect' to that medium they had was that the Forwards are the ones who saved the Aces in the end. Otherwise it was pretty even with some heavy focus on how ridiculously overpowered Nanoha is.
To be fair, the Stars' fights were qualitatively better. Teana actually had to use her brain, and Mach Caliber intervening was rather refreshing. The Lightning's scene ... yeah, that was cheesy.

Nanoha's fight with the Blasters and WAS reads like a series of deux ex machinas. In the latter case no matter how you rationalize things it is hard to ignore the near certainty the scriptwriters had just forgotten their own battlefield setup (as in the AMF), or had not thought through the consequences at all.

Just amping up the characters at the last moment is not the way to make them look good IMO. It is the act of an inferior author who wrote herself into a corner and can only solve it by violating the original capability set of the character.

And Fate's fight? Come on, it was a shameful show of poor energy management leading to defeat, poor psychological unpreparedness, followed by a horribly cheesy and done-way-too-many-times encouragement scene. A theme song doesn't do anything to save that. That was a brainless setup.

And at least they didn't come off worse than Hayate. They might not have the most showtime, but they had quality - the author must have used twice the braintime in plotting out their fights, and that has to mean something

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But yeah, that's true... they had SSX to themselves or almost, and TheShinySword has a point when saying Force looks like it'll have something heavy to do with Subaru and hopefully Teana. PLZ DON'T DIE TEANA. D: D: D:
Don't worry. Heroes don't die in MGLN...
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Old 2009-05-30, 21:33   Link #2022
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As for Fate staying in the manga or not, for any period of time, I think she will. Not for any speculation reason, but more for the "that's what sells" type. Nanoha and Fate are raising Vivio, Fate was brought in to be introduced, and I highly doubt they would give her a few pages of the first issue just to ship her off again. Vivid was made to show Vivio, and they state "Vivio is Nanoha and Fate's daughter" so many times....... why would they keep saying it over and over if only one parent was there? I think that if Fate were to leave, all the hype on Vivio would be "The flight Ace Nanoha's daughter!" instead of "Nanoha and Fate's daughter!"

As for the other characters, this series is known for introducing people then casting them aside once they served their usefulness. Another reason I think Fate will stay: she's mentioned. She serves a purpose as the "kind gentle mother who worries". Which directly reflects on Vivio as a person.

Although after saying that, What I just said is only my opinion based on what I've seen so far.... I could be 100% wrong, but it does sound logical?
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Old 2009-05-30, 21:37   Link #2023
Drethillsh
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Any juicy details ... about our new twin-tailed girl?
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Originally Posted by TheShinySword View Post
...I hope (and bet) Twintails appears in the next chapter.
I got one I don't think anyone has mentioned yet: she was in chapter one. Look at Stratos's hair, then at Hegemon Ingvalt's hair.

They're the same person.
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Old 2009-05-30, 21:43   Link #2024
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Originally Posted by Drethillsh View Post
I got one I don't think anyone has mentioned yet: she was in chapter one. Look at Stratos's hair, then at Hegemon Ingvalt's hair.

They're the same person.
No way! That's impossible! [/Marisa]
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Old 2009-05-30, 21:46   Link #2025
Drethillsh
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No way! That's impossible! [/Marisa]
...I can't even tell if you're being sarcastic or not...
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Old 2009-05-30, 21:51   Link #2026
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It's a Touhou in-joke.

The correlation is possible, but it's still too early to make that suggestion. Same hair =! same person.
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Old 2009-05-30, 21:57   Link #2027
Drethillsh
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It's a Touhou in-joke.

The correlation is possible, but it's still too early to make that suggestion. Same hair =! same person.
Yes, but the attention paid them both indicates that they have major roles in the story. I doubt any published manga-ka is going to have two main characters with such a similar appearance; it'd just be too confusing.

Edit: Plus, Stratos very much seems to be a Vivio refraction/parallel/whatever. And Hegemon Ingvalt seems to have the same relationship with the Sankt Kaiser.
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Old 2009-05-30, 22:13   Link #2028
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I'm afraid I can't follow this hypothesis. With only one chapter of the manga out, and three pages out of nineteen featuring Stratos, and one page with Ingvalt, there is very little available information to draw conclusions from. Wait. Stratos doesn't even show up in the first chapter other than in the colored pages. Where are you getting these conclusions from?
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Old 2009-05-30, 22:17   Link #2029
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I meant Twintails and not twintails as some adult version (which she may or may not be my money's on the former.)
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Old 2009-05-30, 22:26   Link #2030
Drethillsh
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I'm afraid I can't follow this hypothesis. With only one chapter of the manga out, and three pages out of nineteen featuring Stratos, and one page with Ingvalt, there is very little available information to draw conclusions from.
I agree completely that is too little to draw much information from.

But, I stand behind what I say. No, there is no inarguable proof, but nearly all the information we do have supports this, at least from my point of view. If you can point to something that weakens this, I would be glad to hear it, and would drop this theory without hesitation or regret. But I haven't found anything like that, and I've been searching for all the information I can find.

Besides, as you say, we've only got one chapter to work with. What should I do, just make no predictions or guesses for the next few months? I need something to distract myself from finals and graduation speeches, and I'm already literally dreaming about FORCE and ViVid, so...
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Old 2009-05-30, 22:35   Link #2031
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Hey, if it does come out that Stratos and Ingvalt are the same person, then it'll match my expectations too. The moment I saw images of the two, the link was established. However, seeing as it's way too early to make that conclusion, I'm not letting myself get overhyped by it.

In the mean time, you could do as the rest of us are doing: sitting down, twiddling our thumbs, waiting anxiously for the next release and making wacky assumptions and conclusions from the text

Then comes the shipping. Oh god the shipping. That horse is deader than death.

But just in case...

PREPARE THE EQUINE FOR ANOTHER THOROUGH THRASHING.
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Old 2009-05-30, 22:47   Link #2032
Drethillsh
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Originally Posted by Tempest Dynasty View Post
Hey, if it does come out that Stratos and Ingvalt are the same person, then it'll match my expectations too. The moment I saw images of the two, the link was established. However, seeing as it's way too early to make that conclusion, I'm not letting myself get overhyped by it.

In the mean time, you could do as the rest of us are doing: sitting down, twiddling our thumbs, waiting anxiously for the next release and making wacky assumptions and conclusions from the text

Then comes the shipping. Oh god the shipping. That horse is deader than death.

But just in case...

PREPARE THE EQUINE FOR ANOTHER THOROUGH THRASHING.
First: Wait, I thought that was what I was doing. Although, as I said before, I don't see it as all that wacky; I see it as a reasonable assumption. Its the difference between looking at mashed potatoes and saying it was a potato that was turned into a different form for consumption, and saying it was potato-powered light that was attacked repeatedly with a hammer. Neither is wrong based on the given information, but one of them is wacky and one isn't.

Second: I'm actually completely, 100% oblivious to shipping unless it becomes explicitly canonical. It may be hard to believe, but I didn't see NanoFate or Yuunoha (or, for that matter, any romance outside of Erio/Caro and Chrono/Amy) until I read someone else talking about it, which came after my third rewatch of all 52 episodes. So, I don't have much to do in the shipping wars other than duck and hide.

Edit to Second: I should probably add that, when I watch or read any of it now, I subscribe to Nanorgy: every possible ship (that isn't a crack pairing) is true.
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Old 2009-05-30, 22:53   Link #2033
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Personally, I'm hoping that the majority of the generation 1 cast, especially Nanoha and Fate, will see very little, if not the least or even better no, action in Vivid. This is Vivio's story and it's only right for her to take the limelight. It is very disappointing, for me at least, if Vivio puts up a good fight, only to falter at the last minute for her mom to whip in and play deus machina just for the sake of giving Nanoha some "quality" screentime. This sucks and stinks of lazy story-telling.

Imho, it would be best for Nanoha and any appearing G1 cast to be restricted to mentor roles and no more. It will give Vivio and any of the new cast ample space to grow and keeps the clutter down to the minimal. Frankly speaking I really don't see why Fate, Hayate or Teana should have any involvement in the investigations this time. Fate and Teana are Enforcers, yes, but from what I've observed, they are generally involved in interdimensional cases and those on Midchilda itself are handled by the local enforcement agencies. It's a bit hard to say for Hayate, since she's in what I feel is an equivalent as the Intelligence Office, but so far, for what Ginga has told us and her sisters, Ingvalt's little street bashes are not serious enough to warrant Mid's MIB to stick their noses in. In fact, very likely the Nakajima-ke will be the ones that's going to do the sniffing around since, after all, they are the ones that are shown to be looking into this affair.

As much as I like the Yagami-ke, I really don't see any need for them or the G1 cast in Vivid, aside cameos. The only exception to this would be Nanoha, being Vivio's mother, but even for her, I sincerely hope she'll be taking a backseat this time. Let the new stars shine, not drown in the blaze of the old!
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Old 2009-05-30, 22:58   Link #2034
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Originally Posted by Drethillsh View Post
First: Wait, I thought that was what I was doing. Although, as I said before, I don't see it as all that wacky; I see it as a reasonable assumption. Its the difference between looking at mashed potatoes and saying it was a potato that was turned into a different form for consumption, and saying it was potato-powered light that was attacked repeatedly with a hammer. Neither is wrong based on the given information, but one of them is wacky and one isn't.
All assumptions are wacky. Yessum. Reason exists to be kicked to the curb.

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Second: I'm actually completely, 100% oblivious to shipping unless it becomes explicitly canonical. It may be hard to believe, but I didn't see NanoFate or Yuunoha (or, for that matter, any romance outside of Erio/Caro and Chrono/Amy) until I read someone else talking about it, which came after my third rewatch of all 52 episodes. So, I don't have much to do in the shipping wars other than duck and hide.
You are a rare and exciting breed and I hope you don't change from that.

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Edit to Second: I should probably add that, when I watch or read any of it now, I subscribe to Nanorgy: every possible ship (that isn't a crack pairing) is true.
Nano-Harem, yo. Nanoha X EVERYONE. Yes that includes everyone's favorite / hated ferret. Punks.

And yes, I too hope for less Nanoha, moar Vivio.
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Old 2009-05-30, 23:04   Link #2035
Drethillsh
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Personally, I'm hoping that the majority of the generation 1 cast, especially Nanoha and Fate, will see very little, if not the least or even better no, action in Vivid. This is Vivio's story and it's only right for her to take the limelight. It is very disappointing, for me at least, if Vivio puts up a good fight, only to falter at the last minute for her mom to whip in and play deus machina just for the sake of giving Nanoha some "quality" screentime. This sucks and stinks of lazy story-telling.

Imho, it would be best for Nanoha and any appearing G1 cast to be restricted to mentor roles and no more. It will give Vivio and any of the new cast ample space to grow and keeps the clutter down to the minimal. Frankly speaking I really don't see why Fate, Hayate or Teana should have any involvement in the investigations this time. Fate and Teana are Enforcers, yes, but from what I've observed, they are generally involved in interdimensional cases and those on Midchilda itself are handled by the local enforcement agencies. It's a bit hard to say for Hayate, since she's in what I feel is an equivalent as the Intelligence Office, but so far, for what Ginga has told us and her sisters, Ingvalt's little street bashes are not serious enough to warrant Mid's MIB to stick their noses in. In fact, very likely the Nakajima-ke will be the ones that's going to do the sniffing around since, after all, they are the ones that are shown to be looking into this affair.

As much as I like the Yagami-ke, I really don't see any need for them or the G1 cast in Vivid, aside cameos. The only exception to this would be Nanoha, being Vivio's mother, but even for her, I sincerely hope she'll be taking a backseat this time. Let the new stars shine, not drown in the blaze of the old!
Okay, look.

Why do they have to keep everyone from interfering in Vivio's problem?
Nanoha has either beaten, or beaten someone who went on beat, a good portion of the characters in this series, and those she hasn't are clearly (some by their own admission) weaker than her.
Vivio beat her.
Easily.
With no device.
Or training.
While under extreme physical and mental stress.
Since then, Vivio has had four years of training, recieved a device, gained people and happiness to protect (a great strength-booster in any manga or anime), and can still access her Sankt Kaiser powers.
So, you know why they have to keep everyone else out of a fight with someone representing a fair challenge to Vivio?
To prevent them from being spread across the walls in less time than it would take to watch all of Yuuno's appearances in StrikerS.

P.S., that came off a lot angrier than I intended it to, but it's late and I really don't feel like rewriting it. Just recognize that it's not meant as a challenge or an insult.
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Old 2009-05-30, 23:24   Link #2036
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Originally Posted by Drethillsh View Post
Okay, look.

Why do they have to keep everyone from interfering in Vivio's problem?
Nanoha has either beaten, or beaten someone who went on beat, a good portion of the characters in this series, and those she hasn't are clearly (some by their own admission) weaker than her.
Vivio beat her.
Easily.
With no device.
Or training.
While under extreme physical and mental stress.
Since then, Vivio has had four years of training, recieved a device, gained people and happiness to protect (a great strength-booster in any manga or anime), and can still access her Sankt Kaiser powers.
So, you know why they have to keep everyone else out of a fight with someone representing a fair challenge to Vivio?
To prevent them from being spread across the walls in less time than it would take to watch all of Yuuno's appearances in StrikerS.

P.S., that came off a lot angrier than I intended it to, but it's late and I really don't feel like rewriting it. Just recognize that it's not meant as a challenge or an insult.
Hahahahaha no.

The reason Vivio was so powerful was because she had a Lost Logia JAMMED into her and fueling her Saint Kaiser form and the Saint's Armor. Now she doesn't have that-- she has a Device, which is most likely significantly LESS powerful because seriously if Nanoha said she was too young for a real Device why would they give her a Lost Logia equivalent?

There is no way they are going to keep her as powerful as she used to be.

And; she didn't really beat Nanoha. She came close, but no biscuit. Furthermore, they were fighting inside a gigantic AMF which affected everyone BUT Vivio. She had an unfair advantage in there.

Lastly? Outside an AMF? It's quite likely that Nanoha and Fate could crush Vivio under their heel without using their Sonic/Full Drives. Yes, Vivio is awesome-- but only in the particular circumstances that StrikerS had her in, which gave her the Saint's Cradle's AMF, her fully powered Saint's Armor and Saint Kaiser form and an AI that would fight for her even if she had no idea how to fight herself (or no will to fight at all, for that matter).

Sorry if this comes off as an attack, but whereas I can calmly and uncaringly argue about pairings (because I frankly don't care), people going 'this character wins hands down no challenge lol' gets me crawling up a wall.
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Old 2009-05-30, 23:41   Link #2037
Drethillsh
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Hahahahaha no.

The reason Vivio was so powerful was because she had a Lost Logia JAMMED into her and fueling her Saint Kaiser form and the Saint's Armor. Now she doesn't have that-- she has a Device, which is most likely significantly LESS powerful because seriously if Nanoha said she was too young for a real Device why would they give her a Lost Logia equivalent?

There is no way they are going to keep her as powerful as she used to be.

Lastly? She didn't really beat Nanoha. She came close, but no biscuit. Furthermore, they were fighting inside a gigantic AMF which affected everyone BUT Vivio. She had an unfair advantage in there.

Outside an AMF? It's quite likely that Nanoha and Fate could crush Vivio under their heel without using their Sonic/Full Drives.
First Point: So she needs to get a few Mid-Donald's Happy Meals post battle. To the extent of my understanding, the Relic let her activate the Saint's Cradle and eventually forced her body to break the same time her mind did. The Saint's Armor is her own power, completely independent of the Cradle. She was fightng with fists and magic only, and it's been pretty clearly established that a mage sans device is very limited in power. Sacred Heart might be a rabbit plushie, but it's still a device.

Second Point: She was eventually beaten- after she dropped her defenses, stood there, and let herself get hit, and it still drainde Nanoha enough to keep her recuperating for years. Prior to that, Nanoha was losing.

Third Point: There's no indication that the AMF wasn't affecting Vivio. Besides, AMF or no, Nanoha had plenty of her own buffs up: Blaster System, Limit Break, those flying whatever-they-weres, and a reason to fight. Show me a series where that's not the uber-buff.

Last Point: An untrained fighter cannot use their strength to full effect, no matter how much they have. A distracted fighter fighter cannot use their strength to full effect, no matter how much they have. That Vivio struggled under both and still won (until, well, see above) says a lot about how much raw power she has.

Until I see proof otherwise, I'm sticking to Vivio being the series's strongest character.

And I didn't mean to create a "this character wins lol" statement. Given a completely even battle between Vivio and Nanoha, I would expect Nanoha to win- but because of over a decade of training and experience, not because of power. And it wouldn't be easy.
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Old 2009-05-31, 00:00   Link #2038
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There /is/ proof of the contrary. The Saint's Armor can only be activated by certain types of Lost Logia and Devices-- Nanoha comments that Sacred Heart is, on the inside, made of a special crystal that was made after some research, which prompts Vivio's 'so I can do that too?'. If anything, it's sufficient to turn into her older form, but again, logic comes into play. If they won't trust her with a real Device yet, they won't trust her with her full power /either/.

Second, she never let her defenses down. Vivio's body was moving and casting spells on its own, she had almost no control over it. It's mentioned several times that the Cradle's security systems allow it to force the Saint Kaiser to fight if she refuses to-- and that's exactly what happened. Except that Nanoha whipped out an uber Struggle Bind and even Vivio struggling didn't manage to break out of it until the Starlight Breaker(s) was(were) done charging.

Third, the AMF's source was the throne room and was part of the Saint's Cradle defenses. That thing was MADE for the Saint Kaiser, so there's no way it would affect her.

Fourth! Nanoha was actually overpowering Vivio, although that's due to the cartridges, so you'd be right in saying it's thanks to her Device she got that far at all. Even so-- Nanoha without her Device is extremely powerful and not to be taken lightly. Just look at that Crossfire Shoot she guns in Teana's face. And that's with one finger and no charging time. Raising Heart is nice and all, but it's not all there is to it.

Okay, fifth, you're right, determination and a reason for fighting are the best buffs ever. True that. But, huh, even then?

Sixth, Vivio's only ten. She doesn't have any live combat experience and she doesn't have the AI that fights for her anymore. She's on her own and she's inexperienced. She only has three or four years of light training under her belt, and she's obviously not competent enough yet that they would trust her with a real Device, so she can't be that awesome.

Seventh, yeah, sure, the Blaster Bits and the Blaster System helped, but if anything those were there to even off the field. The AMF was a major thorn on Nanoha's side and it's actually powerful enough that Teana, a /magical prodigy/, says she outright can't feel her own magic inside the Cradle.

Eight, what sort of argument is 'she was only using her fists'? Belkan Magic is used to boost your physical strength. You don't need a Device to be effective in melee if you're a Belkan user, especially not if you're the Saint Kaiser being controlled by an ultimate defense system that knows how to fight.

Nine, once again, Vivio might have been 'distracted' and 'untrained' in StrikerS, but that wasn't her fighting, it was the Saint's Cradle's defense system taking her over and forcing her to fight.

Don't get me wrong. I'm not saying Vivio is weak. I'm saying it's too early to say she's a god amongst mortals and the situation isn't playing in her advantage at all. And I'm not saying Nanoha is invincible either; but considering the circumstances, she did pretty damn good considering every possible variable was against her when she fought Vivio.

*gasps for air*

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Old 2009-05-31, 00:32   Link #2039
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First: Where does it say that the Saint's Armor is only active with certain Lost Logia? I don't remember anything like that anywhere, so can you show where that's stated? Vivio asking if she could do "that" seemed to me more like an excited kid asking if they can use a Christmas present right away ("Dad, can I really go out and use the sled now?"). And the remark about not trusting her with a device came before Vivio got Sacred Heart; they weren't ready to trust her before, but they are now. And the reaearch isn't any different than the research Shario did on the Forward's original devices before giving them custom-made IDs.

Second: Those security systems went up in smoke the same time Quattro did- Vivio literally just stood there and waited as Nanoha charged up.

Third: Again, I don't remember that being stated anywhere. It would make sense if that's the way it worked, but none of the AMFs were ever described as being discriminatory in nature. A piece of cover is a great defense in a firefight, but it blocks your attacks too as long as your behind it. And now that I think about it, that room might not have been in an AMF at all (though I should go double check this), because it wouldn't make any sense to have a magic dampening effect in the engine room of a ship powered by magic.

Fourth: Nanoha was bruised and bloody. Vivio wasn't even panting.
Teana was in a much worse state to defend against Nanoha's attack: she was already exhausted and had no effective shield up. I can crush an ant beneath my foot, but doesn't work on a tank.

Sixth: She had even less combat experience in the Cradle. The security systems might have controlled her mind, but she had none of the muscle memory or natural instincts for fighting (think about when you play a fighting game. How much of that was your fingers, and how much is your brain?). She was probably also fighting the mental control, or at least her mental breakdown made it harder for that to work properly, but that's just a guess.

Seventh: See above, but also note that Tea said herself that she has probably the least magical potential of Section 6. She's not a great comparision to Nanoha.

Eight: But no other Belkan user user fights sans device. Even Subaru and Ginga use gauntlets. What I meant was that, with no device to channel magic to, it wasn't allowing her the use of as much power as it would have otherwise. Also, she didn't seem to be using "spells", per se; to me, it looked like just raw magic. Without spells, the differences between styles would probably be negligible. (Though if she was just using spells innately, the Belkan Style would help. It still doesn't overcome lack of a device, though.)

Nine: Already adressed above.

I'm not saying she's a god among mortals; actually, refering to Vivio as a physical god (having godly powers), rather than a social god (being worshipped by other people), is a pet peeve of mine. The Sankt Kaiser was an actual, human mage; powerful, but still human. It tries my patience to read through tvtropes endless references to "the clone of Jesus". And as I noted before (and as you yourself admitted in point five), not every variable was against Nanoha.

And I'd like to add that this is the most fun debate I've had in years, so thank you.
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Old 2009-05-31, 01:52   Link #2040
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@Dri and Drethillsh: Gents, if you're still planning to continue to duking it out, might I suggest moving this over to Magic and Technology? Last I checked this was the Manga discussion thread. I mean, sure, it's really cute how you guys are play fighting with each other, but if you're going to debate, then you ought to follow the proper etiquette (re: Rules of Engagement). I do believe one of those statuettes to be debating in the proper thread.
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