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Old 2009-06-02, 13:09   Link #1101
Vexx
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Quote:
Originally Posted by TinyRedLeaf View Post
You mean the documentary that Thyrz linked? I cried manly tears while watching it (which was a bit inconvenient given that I was watching it during lull hours at work ).

As for the bullying, from what I've read, it's apparently quite prevalent given the tendency for cliques to form in school. I don't know if it's necessarily more (or less) common in Japan than elsewhere, but it can be particularly vicious because of the greater cultural need for Japanese conform with their peer groups.
Yeah, I don't know that it is worse than elsewhere (though the forms of bullying seem particularly humiliating at times) ... but the passivity of the teachers and schools in responding to it reflects the "well, he should work harder to fit in" mentality. The victims have less recourse and since suicide is not completely morally repugnant in a "take personal responsibility no matter what" setting -- it is resorted to more often than it should be.

Japan is a wonderful, beautiful society (like many asian cultures) with its own cartload of nasty ugly bits. All societies (east or west) have their own nasty bits and its a strategic error to think of a society as a fantasy nirvana.

Quote:
"Is the anime industry churning out more titles for otakus and less for the non-anime fans/casual fans?"
I'd say they're following the money. Casual/non-anime fans don't spend money. Certainly not on DVDs, figures, CDs, swag, etc

Also, I've seen no data to imply there really is much in the way of "casual fans" in Japan. The anime fandom in Japan has a much different texture than the fandom in the US (or the West for that matter). There are *closet* fans or manga fans who may watch an adaptation of a favorite manga. ... Manga is very accepted in Japan (though you have to watch what you're seen reading) but, in general, anime is considered a "weird hobby" so "casual" may not be very applicable.

This would probably shift faster as a trend if the otaku-dom were integrating into society more as they grew up, became less afraid of being "outed", and started breeding -- the way "geeks, trekkies, and nerds" overseas are shifting perceptions of them by doing the same.

Last edited by Vexx; 2009-06-02 at 13:42. Reason: the babelfish plug-in keeps pooping on my posts
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Old 2009-06-02, 20:06   Link #1102
aohige
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Is the anime industry churning out more titles for otakus and less for the non-anime fans/casual fans?
The answer is probably neither.
Anime industry is not a single entity, like some would believe.
It's a diversified entity, just like the American film industry.

You can't talk about the entire "Anime industry" and say what it's focusing on.
Because it is a multi-market industry diversified into serving its general base.

The largest market is, and has always been, children's market.
There are far more toys and goods bought by parents for their little kids than what the entire population of otaku culture can consume.
Although there are consumers who intertwine between these diverse markets, they are minority and not the target base.

And some people argue "well otaku have more money to consume since that's all they buy".
While this is true, comparing 1:1 proves nothing, when the base number of consumers is extremely one-sided.
There are far more parents and children in the country than there are otaku. FAR MORE.
It doesn't matter if one otaku consumes $1000 worth of goods in one month, when there are 500 children for each number of otaku consuming $10 a month.

Anyways, back to the topic, I got side-tracked.
The correct question would be, "is the otaku anime market growing, and the general anime market getting smaller?"
I think the otaku anime market will try to put out as many titles as possible to appease its audience to "find" that sweet franchise.
But churning out titles like that will can only put them in black. Look at the terrible DVD sales for example.
If the hard core otaku consuming habits keeps growing, to become larger profit than the larger number of casual fans, then I guess we could see more otaku-heavy titles than not.

But I don't think we've ever seen such a market in any media. Casual fans always outnumber hardcore fans greatly, and thus a more profitable base to market to.
General anime market, if there is such a thing, will continue to do what it always did: solidify the franchise they have, instead of pumping out mediocre titles.

Now, one thing I don't understand well about your question.... what exactly is a "anime title for non-anime fans"?
As far as I can remember, non-anime fans don't.... you know, enjoy anime in the first place.
Only exception to that I can think of, are teenage and older shoujo manga fans who enjoy watching likes of NANA, but don't enjoy anime in general.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Vexx View Post
I'd say they're following the money. Casual/non-anime fans don't spend money. Certainly not on DVDs, figures, CDs, swag, etc
That entirely depends on which market you're speaking about.
Casual fans of what?

Otaku anime franchise that targets otaku consumers will obviously focus on their main base, and franchise that targets general market will focus its general appeal, while children market (the largest) will focus on producing products more attractive to children.
Like I said, "Anime industry" isn't a single entity.
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Last edited by aohige; 2009-06-02 at 20:42.
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Old 2009-06-02, 20:14   Link #1103
yezhanquan
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On the topic of children, I remember a report some time ago that toymakers are struggling to bring in the dough due to less children around. How bad exactly is the situation?
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Old 2009-06-02, 20:20   Link #1104
aohige
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Originally Posted by yezhanquan View Post
On the topic of children, I remember a report some time ago that toymakers are struggling to bring in the dough due to less children around. How bad exactly is the situation?
The birth rate in Japan is terrible. So the industry is definitely doing worse than it used to.
It will only get worse in the next several hundred years if it doesn't improve.

Although I'm not worried about it, when eldery becomes majority and economy cave in, people will start breeding like rabbits like the rest of the world, and it'll all even out in the course of centuries. It's not like it'll be the first time Japan was short on youth, and bred like rabbits. Same thing happened post-WWII.


Besides, I think having lower birthrate is a good thing in the long run.
There should be less of us humans, we expanded six times the number in mere 200 years, I don't think Earth resource can handle it anymore.
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Last edited by aohige; 2009-06-02 at 20:31.
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Old 2009-06-02, 20:37   Link #1105
yezhanquan
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Well, at least Japan's contribution to robotics is another thing that comes from a lower population.
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Old 2009-06-02, 21:10   Link #1106
Guernsey
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Why is it with Otaku and untouched maidens? Why is it frowned upon when japanese otaku discover that they favorite characters had already been taken by someone else? And they had intercourse with them? I ask this because of the Kannagi debacle or even the doujins I read where I see secenes of explict sex yet theya re still consider "pure" by otaku. Why is this?
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Last edited by Guernsey; 2009-06-02 at 21:33.
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Old 2009-06-03, 00:22   Link #1107
Vexx
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First, not all otaku think that way --- actually its a rather small but very loud minority from what I can gather. I suppose you could argue that they're just very retro-conservative that way - a weird cultural flashback to extremely misogynistic times.

Another argument might be that the small faction that gets their undies all wadded up over the notion are also "untouched by women" and they hate the idea of their fantasy object having more experience than them.

Whatever, there's little reason not to skewer such nonsense when it crops up - whether it be abusive of 2D fictional women or real world seiyuu/idol women. It is fundamentally irrational and shows a distinct failure to connect the dots as you notice
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Old 2009-06-03, 01:51   Link #1108
aohige
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Originally Posted by Vexx View Post
First, not all otaku think that way --- actually its a rather small but very loud minority from what I can gather. I suppose you could argue that they're just very retro-conservative that way - a weird cultural flashback to extremely misogynistic times.
What's weird is, it's not "conservative" in a Japanese sense.
Virginity being sacred is a Western cultural influence, not a Japanese one.
Japanese culture has traditionally been very open about sexuality, and even homosexuality.
For example traveling shrine priestess of shinto also served as prostitutes, and sex with young boys and girls was a common and accepted culture during the feudal times.
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Old 2009-06-03, 01:59   Link #1109
npcomplete
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Do any of the shinto shrines offer hostel type lodging? Some temples offer some form of shelter where the person either pays or works for his/her stay.
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Old 2009-06-03, 02:03   Link #1110
Samari
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Originally Posted by TinyRedLeaf View Post
You mean the documentary that Thyrz linked? I cried manly tears while watching it (which was a bit inconvenient given that I was watching it during lull hours at work ).

As for the bullying, from what I've read, it's apparently quite prevalent given the tendency for cliques to form in school. I don't know if it's necessarily more (or less) common in Japan than elsewhere, but it can be particularly vicious because of the greater cultural need for Japanese conform with their peer groups.
Documentary? I'm not sure. It was just a television drama based on a manga.
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Old 2009-06-03, 02:26   Link #1111
Vexx
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Originally Posted by aohige View Post
What's weird is, it's not "conservative" in a Japanese sense.
Virginity being sacred is a Western cultural influence, not a Japanese one.
Japanese culture has traditionally been very open about sexuality, and even homosexuality.
For example traveling shrine priestess of shinto also served as prostitutes, and sex with young boys and girls was a common and accepted culture during the feudal times.
You're right... all I can figure is they're channeling some weird crap from western inputs. The hilarity/tragedy is that it leaves most westerners scratching their heads at the inanity of the intolerant fury.
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Old 2009-06-03, 02:33   Link #1112
TinyRedLeaf
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Originally Posted by npcomplete View Post
Do any of the shinto shrines offer hostel type lodging? Some temples offer some form of shelter where the person either pays or works for his/her stay.
Yes, I believe a few do. I recall reading about one when doing research for my Japan trip two years ago. It offered lodging for cash, that is, you didn't have to work for your room. Unfortunately, I've lost the link. I'll post again if I find it.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Samari
Documentary? I'm not sure. It was just a television drama based on a manga.
Children Full of Life

Very touching stuff. Highly recommended. *sniff*
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Old 2009-06-03, 09:46   Link #1113
0utf0xZer0
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Originally Posted by aohige View Post
For example traveling shrine priestess of shinto also served as prostitutes
Now I'm curious... does this have anything to do with why miko outfits are a fairly popular fetish?
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Old 2009-06-03, 12:44   Link #1114
Vexx
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Now I'm curious... does this have anything to do with why miko outfits are a fairly popular fetish?
Possibly... but the average Japanese knows about as much about the history of Shinto as the average Christian knows about their religion.... very murky and children's tales.

The miko=temple_priestess=sex_ritualist is very old (the term "prostitute" is misleading and degrading -- a very Victorian assessment of what temple priestesses did in pagan cultures == sex magic) .... to most Shinto-ists, miko are "traditionally" young *maidens* who retire when they become young *women*. I'm guessing that there's a fantasy aspect of virginity for fetish-types.

(actual shinto practice tends to be more practical... don't ask, don't tell)

I've always loved the miko garb long before I knew a thing about Shinto simply because it is a very cool looking outfit.
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Old 2009-06-03, 13:17   Link #1115
bhl88
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Now, one thing I don't understand well about your question.... what exactly is a "anime title for non-anime fans"
Captain Tsubasa (I think I spelled it wrong) and Dragonball Z... I guess...

I think I saw some table that says: As of 2002 (but it's so old at Nipponia magazine... so I need to find a better one)

http://web-japan.org/nipponia/nippon...feature02.html

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Old 2009-06-03, 17:30   Link #1116
aohige
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Originally Posted by bhl88 View Post
Captain Tsubasa (I think I spelled it wrong) and Dragonball Z... I guess...
Those both Shounen Jump manga belong in the children's market I talked about earlier.
It was immensely popular among my generation when it was being serialized.
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Old 2009-06-03, 18:43   Link #1117
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What about most of the Miyazaki Hayao stuff? Being theater releases they are for general audience.
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Old 2009-06-03, 22:51   Link #1118
lixuelai
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Anime is widely accepted in Japan and is a form of mainstream media (much more so than in the US). So there is really no "non-anime fan". Most Japanese knows a thing or two about anime and manga having watched or read them growing up. I had a fun chat with my professor and his wife about various manga they knew during my study abroad in Japan while their kids spend part of their morning watch PreCure...just to show how entrenched anime is in Japan.
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Old 2009-06-03, 23:08   Link #1119
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Originally Posted by lixuelai View Post
Anime is widely accepted in Japan and is a form of mainstream media (much more so than in the US). So there is really no "non-anime fan". Most Japanese knows a thing or two about anime and manga having watched or read them growing up. I had a fun chat with my professor and his wife about various manga they knew during my study abroad in Japan while their kids spend part of their morning watch PreCure...just to show how entrenched anime is in Japan.
Well, everyone watches anime when they are kids.
But most people grow up out of it, and in general treat anime as something for children.
Otaku culture is not as widly accepted as you want to think, people who are still into anime after being grown up are looked down by the majority.
Because the otaku that grew up in the 80s are now adults, there are more otaku population than before, but it's still a minority. It's still treated as a geek culture in Japan.
You're preaching to Buddha, dude. I'm an otaku generation that grew up in Japan, experienced 80s, 90s, and 2000~ era myself.
I know very well first-hand how we are preceieved in Japan, and who the fanbase are.

Anime fans/Otaku/Adults who are into anime = kimoi
This is a general stereotype, that is the reality. Just go to Japan, turn on the TV, and change the channels a few times.
You'll find many stereotype of anime fans being presented as horrible low-lifes the TV variety shows (and girls on the street) make fun of.

Sure, not everyone's anti-otaku. It's a stereotype, and anime is very popular culture while also being looked down by many.
Think of it like... Star Trek. Trekkies are often the target practice for the majority to stereotype and make fun of, yet the franchise is immensely popular at the same time.

Quote:
Originally Posted by JMvS View Post
What about most of the Miyazaki Hayao stuff? Being theater releases they are for general audience.
And to answer Miyazaki question, it's treated as a family friendly medium, much like Disney films in US.
You don't treat Disney film audience the same as you treat Teen Aqua Force fans, or adults who read Marvel comics do you? There ya go.
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Old 2009-06-03, 23:30   Link #1120
lixuelai
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Never said anything about otakus. Anime is not necessarily otaku culture. Just like manga isnt. Otaku can be anything that is taken to an extreme/obsession.
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