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Old 2009-06-02, 18:03   Link #41
Zantetsuken
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Originally Posted by Kaisos Erranon View Post
The books are much much better.

Yeah, but, the entire Konoe arc was really bad. And filler. And bad.
That I agree wholeheartedly...

That makes me wonder, did the JC Team change personnel or something? The first season filler was so well done it didn't feel like a filler. While the 2nd season filler makes me want to kill Yoshida. (Granted, even the first season makes me want to kill her, but the 2nd seasond makes me more so.)
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Old 2009-06-02, 20:58   Link #42
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That makes me wonder, did the JC Team change personnel or something? The first season filler was so well done it didn't feel like a filler. While the 2nd season filler makes me want to kill Yoshida. (Granted, even the first season makes me want to kill her, but the 2nd seasond makes me more so.)
No, they retained the same core staff. Only those involved with the project would know why they went that direction (Lower costs? Better promotion for the characters, which benefits the Shana franchise as a whole?), but the decision wasn't necessarily made by the animation studio or production staff.

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I would actually love to see it as a remake which follows the plot closely.
As a hunch, I suspect that with major properties, anime producers will favor the purist route more, given the shrinkage and narrowing of the market. I wonder how Shana might've turned out had production begun a few years later.
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Old 2009-06-03, 07:30   Link #43
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No, they retained the same core staff. Only those involved with the project would know why they went that direction (Lower costs? Better promotion for the characters, which benefits the Shana franchise as a whole?), but the decision wasn't necessarily made by the animation studio or production staff.
Yes, this is why these sorts of fan-rants always amuse me greatly. For all we know, the changes could have been made in collaboration with the original author, at the request of the novel publisher (to keep fans guessing/give them something unique) or whatever. But that doesn't stop the "parade of experts" here from coming in and trying to presume to tell the production committee how to do their jobs. And this for an anime that sold quite well. The irony of "if they knew how to write they'd be writers" from these armchair directors isn't lost on me...

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Originally Posted by rg4619 View Post
As a hunch, I suspect that with major properties, anime producers will favor the purist route more, given the shrinkage and narrowing of the market. I wonder how Shana might've turned out had production begun a few years later.
You're probably right about that; the expectation of the merchandise collectors seems to have shifted in favour of more literal/direct adaptations of the source. I wonder if this is in part a result of all the success Kyoto Animation has had with their various adaptations (which tend to be rather literal for the most part)? As I said above, Shana sold quite well in spite of the extra latitude they were provided in terms of the plot, but I agree that for the next season (especially if it's the last season) a more literal treatment would be sort of timely (since they could time it such that the last novel would release around the same time as the last episode). That being said, I still consider it possible that they could go the other way completely and somehow develop the anime and novels in different paths, but that seems less likely in this market. Times have changed...
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Old 2009-06-03, 07:46   Link #44
Kaisos Erranon
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Originally Posted by relentlessflame View Post
Yes, this is why these sorts of fan-rants always amuse me greatly. For all we know, the changes could have been made in collaboration with the original author, at the request of the novel publisher (to keep fans guessing/give them something unique) or whatever. But that doesn't stop the "parade of experts" here from coming in and trying to presume to tell the production committee how to do their jobs. And this for an anime that sold quite well.
I wouldn't be complaining if the changes had been good. They weren't.

It doesn't matter to me, personally, whether or not an anime was financially successful, I'm looking for a good story here.

The Konoe arc was just bad.

I'm... actually rather offended by your statements. Yes, I am telling the production committee how to do their jobs, because, well, from my perspective, I don't think they are doing their jobs.

That isn't to say I could do a better job myself, (I am in no way an anime production committee member) but I can tell when something is crap.

I'm not an 'expert', I'm an anime fan. I like to see good quality anime.

When an anime I previously enjoyed suddenly becomes terrible, exactly what else am I supposed to do but suppose the production committee isn't doing their jobs well enough?

Now this is going off topic and that will get me banned, so, um.


Yeah, that's why I'd like to see a faithful adaptation of Shana, because, well, it'd be great, not because I feel I myself could do a better job than the current production committee.
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Old 2009-06-03, 07:49   Link #45
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To my knowledge, they did in fact get assistance in writing the second season from the original author.

*goes to check* And yes, he is indeed credited as colaborating in composing the series.
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Old 2009-06-03, 07:55   Link #46
Kaisos Erranon
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To my knowledge, they did in fact get assistance in writing the second season from the original author.

*goes to check* And yes, he is indeed credited as colaborating in composing the series.
Then he has no idea what he's doing.

Screw it, if the Konoe arc was his idea I don't know what to think anymore.
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Old 2009-06-03, 08:01   Link #47
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Originally Posted by Kaisos Erranon View Post
Then he has no idea what he's doing.

Screw it, if the Konoe arc was his idea I don't know what to think anymore.
I still don't get the rage that just those 4 episodes get. I felt that season two's most inherent flaw was its lack of proper pacing.
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Old 2009-06-03, 08:16   Link #48
Kaisos Erranon
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I still don't get the rage that just those 4 episodes get. I felt that season two's most inherent flaw was its lack of proper pacing.
That too.

Though, that arc just felt like needless pandering. (Hey, Hecate is popular. Let's make her part of the main cast to satisfy the fanboys!)

I don't know other people's reasons, but that was mine. Also Yuji's harem was large enough.
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Old 2009-06-03, 11:30   Link #49
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Originally Posted by Kaisos Erranon View Post
I'm... actually rather offended by your statements. Yes, I am telling the production committee how to do their jobs, because, well, from my perspective, I don't think they are doing their jobs.

That isn't to say I could do a better job myself, (I am in no way an anime production committee member) but I can tell when something is crap.

I'm not an 'expert', I'm an anime fan. I like to see good quality anime.

When an anime I previously enjoyed suddenly becomes terrible, exactly what else am I supposed to do but suppose the production committee isn't doing their jobs well enough?
I suppose I'll indulge you just a little bit more by just saying this: has it really never occurred to you that just because you happen to not like something doesn't mean it's someone else's "fault"? If, according to you, the production committee didn't do their job right, but somebody else happens to love the stuff you hate, does that mean that those people have "objectively bad taste"? It's simply not all about you. Everyone has opinions and preferences, and just because you personally happen to not like something doesn't mean that somebody out there screwed up. Even if you find a dozen others who agree with you, that doesn't make it any more valid to tell working professionals that they're "not doing their jobs right". They don't report to you, they report to their patrons and customers, and just because you watch anime doesn't make you their customer.

The Second Season was fine and sold well. I'm sure the Production Committee will be quite happy with themselves if the next project sells just as well (after all, they're using past sales to justify continued projects). And all that's whether or not Kaisos Erranon thinks it's "crap". If you don't like it, your only option is to not buy; they have no obligation to make you happy. Expressing opinions is all fine and good, but they're just that: opinions. These blame games are just asinine.

Anyway, here's to hoping this new Shana project is as enjoyable as possible for everyone so we won't have to have this conversation again the next time around. (Then again, no matter what the subject in question, there will always be some who dislike it.) Here's also to hoping the release of the magazine will bring with it some new information so we can keep this thread on-topic.
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Old 2009-06-03, 12:03   Link #50
darktruth
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The Second Season was fine and sold well.
I suppose I'll take that as a sign that the Japanese fans liked season two. And to add just a bit more on what relentless has said, most, if not all, anime production companies could care less what fans outside of Japan thinks about their series (unless you're importing their Japanese DVD's and even then I doubt they'd care). They cater to their own local customers and focus on sales and ratings for their show and since it appears the second season sold well in Japan, I see that as not many Japanese fans thought season two was pure crap. All the opinions I've read of it being bad have been from fans outside of Japan so far.
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Old 2009-06-03, 12:48   Link #51
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I suppose I'll take that as a sign that the Japanese fans liked season two. And to add just a bit more on what relentless has said, most, if not all, anime production companies could care less what fans outside of Japan thinks about their series (unless you're importing their Japanese DVD's and even then I doubt they'd care). They cater to their own local customers and focus on sales and ratings for their show and since it appears the second season sold well in Japan, I see that as not many Japanese fans thought season two was pure crap. All the opinions I've read of it being bad have been from fans outside of Japan so far.
Well, I'm sure that there were people with all sorts of opinions in Japan as well. I'm not trying to say that the actual opinion of disliking something is totally unjustified or anything. But the average sales/volume were around 9,000 copies, which is just a bit under the ~10,600 average for the first series. This is a pretty average drop-off rate for sequel series, and I don't think would have caused any great concern among the producers. Of course, I'm not trying to claim that sales = quality (or "QUALITY"?), but at the same time I find it unfair to lay blanket blame and say it was crap. Everyone has their opinions.

It's the same sort of vitriol we see directed at Zero no Tsukaima, which also sold quite decently in all three seasons. It makes me think that it's a vocal minority who just always need to have something to blame when things don't live up to their personal expectations. *shrug*
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Old 2009-06-03, 16:58   Link #52
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I sure hope this is season 3. I also hope Kazumi dies in it ;D
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Old 2009-06-04, 01:46   Link #53
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I really couldn't possibly agree with relentless any more. And the insatiable urge by anime "fans" to do this whining and complaining and ranting when a show doesn't turn out the exact way they like it really never ceases to amaze me, nor does it cease to annoy and frustrate me. The simple fact that there's another production coming out is proof that the Shana did quite well; JC Staff, nor any other company, would make a sequel for a show that did as bad as some people here would like us to believe Shana S2 did. And while I find the irony in this, as relentless explained it, just as amusing, I also find it quite annoying as well.

It's just like with Nogizaka Haruka Season 2. The people here whine and complain "why is this series getting a seaond season," and ignore the fact that their opinions don't rule the world. NH is getting a season 2 because it did well in its first season. I personally am looking forward to NH S2 very much.

Even if this whole country rose up and said "we hate this show," they really couldn't care much less in Japan. We're not their primary market, just their bonus market. Call it a difference in taste or whatever works for you; your opinion isn't the law of the world.
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Old 2009-06-04, 02:16   Link #54
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Great news. The second season gave me so many mixed feelings, great when it was at is best, but so awful when it was bad. I will hope for the best, but will end up watching it anyways just because it is Shana.
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Old 2009-06-04, 02:18   Link #55
Rising Dragon
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You know, I hadn't really known what this sub-forum was gonna be like since I arrived long after 2nd finished, and I was afraid it was gonna turn out just like the ZnT sub-forum. Judging by some reactions, looks like I had good reason to be afraid.

But I'm glad to see there's some people who support the anime despite it not holding "true" to the novels, and supporting the anime despite it getting a second season. Maybe I'll actually stick around this forum when this new production comes out, because showing support to the anime won't be a complete waste of time like it was for me over in ZnT.

So kudos to you, relentlessflame, Shinji103, and you other pro-anime people. I'm glad you restored some of my faith in ASuki.
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Old 2009-06-04, 04:00   Link #56
Seitsuki
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Perosonally I hold nothing against S2. The only gripe I had was that the animation quality seemed like it was starting to slide; not sure if this is actually true but it just didn't seem to have the polish of previous episodes. Apart from that it was great.

I agree that producers in Japan couldn't care less about how people outside of Japan percieve their shows as to them such people are probably nothing more than leechers who don't even contribute TV ratings. Rambling or moaning is going to help you vent some steam and that's about purely it. (or judging by how long some of these things go on it doesn't even do that.)

@Rising Dragon: sorry, I was one of those who were less than elated at the anime adaption ^^; of course comparing the anime to the novels is always going to be a difficult task as they're different mediums and both have their own merits, but I just felt like the producers were turning up the more risque parts of the show far more than necessary and hitting the plot as a result. Still pretty enjoyable though (hearing the voices is something else entirely from just reading them)
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Old 2009-06-04, 23:26   Link #57
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Half the time going into something I have only the vaguest idea of what the source material is about, and even if I know something, I'm expecting a completely new experience on the screen regardless. It could be because I see a series more through its music (and as a sort of sub bylaw of that, by its characters. If I get to know the characters, I can appreciate their character songs. Unorthodox? Maybe. Will I stop seeing things that way? Unlikely.)

I never quite got how a story that happened in the anime first or happened differently is any less valid. The characters are still themselves, their adventures still committed to a medium of entertainment. The chance to see something new. How "a good adaptation = exactly the same" works is something I could never wrap my mind around. Word for word, page for page, frame for frame. After a while that must get a bit repetitive. Mediums will be different, and if the stories will be different, then I say let them be. I'm just here to enjoy the show.

Which is why, to swerve this right back into the topic (again), bring on Season III!
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Old 2009-06-05, 01:48   Link #58
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On the issue of medium, anime has two things I'm looking out for: the cast and the music. If the songs are good, I can forgive to some extent, same with a strong cast. But, if it sucks to the extent which Samurai Deeper Kyo went to (ZnT is dangerously near that level), then I'm sorry to say that you're out, buster.

As a manga reader, I don't expect 100%. If the important lines are left inside, along with the tone of the series, I am happy. The Hellsing OVA is but one example. Reading the Major's "I Love War" speech? Impressive. Hearing Tobita Nobuo saying it? My hairs stood on end. Even for series like Lucky Star and K-On, it gives a good feel when you see the gags you read come to life.

Still, there is no definite word on what this new project is about. I'm staying tuned.
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Old 2009-06-05, 04:13   Link #59
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This is sounding & looking very much promising like a 3rd Shana series is in the works
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Old 2009-06-05, 09:34   Link #60
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I have no hard feelings against the Fumina Konoe filler arc, since IMHO it was done such that Hecate's failure at the end of Second is given more justification. I'm also psyched to see the third installment, since it will be there when the big stuff will be revealed.

I also hope an OVA dedicated to Mathilde, Wilhelmina and Merihim's time (present -600 years) just like in Shakugan no Shana: Eternal Song will be produced.
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