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Old 2009-06-04, 17:11   Link #1641
Jan-Poo
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Ah well that means this is just the basis they used to graphically represent the island. I c.
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Old 2009-06-04, 18:21   Link #1642
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http://maps.google.com/maps?f=d&sour...h&z=10&start=0

At the beginning of one of the chapters, it's mentioned that the trip takes half an hour at 40 knots. That puts it 20 nautical miles (23 miles) from the mainland. Shikinejima appears to be 20-25 miles from the mainland. If the atlas part of the answer to the epitaph involves Rokkenjima, then Shikinejima is the source.
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Old 2009-06-04, 20:35   Link #1643
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it's not from the mainland, it's from niijima. From the mainland they take the airplane
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Old 2009-06-05, 07:23   Link #1644
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Spoiler for on the epitaph:
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Old 2009-06-05, 07:53   Link #1645
MeoTwister5
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I'm getting a Higurashi-esque feeling...

Spoiler for Spoilers:


Also...

Spoiler for Spoilers:

Last edited by MeoTwister5; 2009-06-05 at 08:34.
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Old 2009-06-05, 09:15   Link #1646
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Originally Posted by MeoTwister5 View Post
Spoiler for Spoilers:
Spoiler for Episode 3:
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Old 2009-06-05, 11:06   Link #1647
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It also seems like a big difference i what they talk at the conferene, as a theory, they ignore the gold in teh fist ep, rosa finds the gold in the second one as is acknowledged as beatrice, in th e third one rosa is about to find the gold, but eva beats her to it thanks to kirye.
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Old 2009-06-05, 11:24   Link #1648
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Regarding the epitaph, specifically the third part:

Spoiler for The Gifts of the Witch:
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Old 2009-06-05, 11:27   Link #1649
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rosa finds the gold in the second one as is acknowledged as beatrice
Uh? When does this happen? I don't remember neither Rosa being acknowledged as Beatrice neither Rosa finding the gold
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Old 2009-06-05, 11:36   Link #1650
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Spoiler for alibis:


Spoiler for the poison hypothesis:
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Old 2009-06-05, 12:46   Link #1651
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Uh? When does this happen? I don't remember neither Rosa being acknowledged as Beatrice neither Rosa finding the gold
maximilianjenus loves to throw known facts with personal hypothesis and wild guesses in the same post if you haven't noticed
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Old 2009-06-05, 12:57   Link #1652
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Spoiler for the poison hypothesis:
Doesn't Rosa bring tea which Shannon later prepares? It's possible Rosa or Shannon (I'm not suggesting either is culpable in any given game, just that they could be) could drug it, although I think in some episodes it's consumed at different times or not at all.
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Old 2009-06-05, 13:53   Link #1653
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Originally Posted by Proto View Post
maximilianjenus loves to throw known facts with personal hypothesis and wild guesses in the same post if you haven't noticed
I should have guessed -_-

Quote:
Originally Posted by Renall View Post
Doesn't Rosa bring tea which Shannon later prepares? It's possible Rosa or Shannon (I'm not suggesting either is culpable in any given game, just that they could be) could drug it, although I think in some episodes it's consumed at different times or not at all.
Regardless of that if poison is involved there are several ways it could be used. Lunch, dinner, tea, and so on. You can't even rule out the possibility that it's gas. Actually an hallucinogen gas would explain a lot of things, including the golden butterflies.
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Old 2009-06-05, 14:06   Link #1654
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Regardless of that if poison is involved there are several ways it could be used. Lunch, dinner, tea, and so on. You can't even rule out the possibility that it's gas. Actually an hallucinogen gas would explain a lot of things, including the golden butterflies.
If it is a gas, it must exist in some form or fashion and have a delivery mechanism. So somebody would have to be wandering around with a tank of gas and a nozzle to spray it or something, as well as have some way to avoid being taken in by the hallucinogenic gas.

Granted, if all it took was a quick puff, perhaps it would be concealable (and anyone you spritzed could be killed while delusional), but I'm still dubious. I always just assumed the butterflies were a metaphor, either for being "close to the killer" (no idea if it's for ANY given killer or only a particular one) in a given instance, or for seeing something you weren't supposed to see (Shannon sees butterflies while on midnight rounds, etc.). "The magic at work" as one of the killers operates, as it were.

EDIT: Working off the butterfly thing, imagine the butterflies represent the "ritual killer" and then imagine the ep1 First Twilight:

Spoiler for ep1 First Twilight:

Last edited by Renall; 2009-06-05 at 14:33.
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Old 2009-06-05, 15:08   Link #1655
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If it is just a metaphor then there's quite some lying around. golden butterflies have been spotted long time before the events of 1986. They are not only associated to crime scenes. they also appear in front of Shannon, Kanon and Rosa, before the 5 october. Also think about episode 2 when the servant are left alone, not everyone dies and the survivors mention the butterflies.

In other words it's either that they actually see the butterflies or they lie about them. But why would they lie about butterflies? Well okay to make everyone believe it is the work of the witch, but then who came up with the idea that golden butterflies announce the witch in the first place?

Of course you can dismiss the whole thing by saying, it's just the magic (fake) world, it doesn't actually happen, and I don't really have arguments to deny it, however (and this is my personal opinion) there's something odd about these butterflies. For once we haven't even been told what they are exactly. And it seems they almost invariably appear before the magic scenes start, in other word their appearance is what causes the real world to end and the magic world to start. I don't think they are actually golden butterflies, they just look that way but they are more like bright sparks in reality.

There is something pretty similar in Cowboy Bebop the movie.
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Old 2009-06-05, 15:17   Link #1656
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Anybody read the story "A Man Called Spade" by Dashiell Hammet?

Spoiler for Poison:


Spoiler for The golden butterflies, my interpretation:
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Old 2009-06-05, 15:17   Link #1657
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It's possible people have actually seen them in the past in stories, but aren't seeing them now. It's not that they're lying, it's that the narration is lying. The other possibility is, as you said, that they are something that is real, and their presence is meant to represent something. I'd normally be inclined to write them off entirely but there are several instances where people actually see and interact with them.

But absent an explanation as to what could cause that sort of thing (I can't think of anything that would exist in 1986 that could mimic this without being overly elaborate), we can't really be sure that when people see golden butterflies that this is what they're actually experiencing. How often do survivors see them and live to tell someone about them? Generally a person dies soon afterward. They do acknowledge that there are stories about them and people who have claimed to have seen them, but they also believe Beatrice exists as a force in the forest, which could just be a cover for someone who is trying to emulate the stories.

What I mean is: Some stories exist on Rokkenjima of people who claim to have seen golden butterflies. But the actual ones we're seeing in Oct. 1986 are being produced by someone for some reason.

The real question is: In an anti-fantasy approach, what purpose do the golden "butterflies" serve?

EDIT: To attempt to answer my own question, they could be a screening device, or they could be designed to actually make things easier on the killer. If they're bright enough and distracting enough (whatever they are), perhaps that makes the victims easier to see and more vulnerable while the killer (who could just slip on sunglasses or something, or is used to the light and movement) can operate. But it still seems very elaborate even for someone who is trying to imitate Beatrice, especially since you're just killing the person anyway and no one else will see it. Which is why it feels like a metaphor to me.

Spoiler for The Mirror in ep1/ep2:
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Old 2009-06-05, 16:14   Link #1658
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It's not that they're lying, it's that the narration is lying.
Like Rogerpepitone I start from the assumption that whatever real Battler experiences is true. So whenever something happens in front of Battler I can't explain it with: "It's Beatrice's fake version of the story", with the exception of the end of ep 2.

With such premise, I know that Shannon said to Battler that Kanon has seen golden butterflies (it should be episode2 4 october while the cousins are on the beach). So either Kanon really saw the butterflies or Kanon lied to Shannon, or Shannon lied to Battler, or we can't even trust Battler himself.
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Old 2009-06-05, 16:26   Link #1659
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Or the butterflies Kanon saw aren't the same ones people see during the murders. I could see weird lights in a forest at night (fireflies, gas, that sort of thing), but inside a house?
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Old 2009-06-05, 16:28   Link #1660
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Wasn't something explained in Episode 1

The servants acted if they really believed in Beatrice to please Kinzo, Jessica for example thought Kanon and Shannon really believed that and then realized in the Study that every of the servants acted if they do to ease their masters pain
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