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Old 2009-06-09, 05:20   Link #1081
fourtwenty
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Join Date: May 2009
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Just finished reading it.
Amazing game, can't wait for the next installment.

Spoiler for Ange:


So, EP5 will be an answer arc, it's supposed to be released at the summer Comiket?
And would it be wise to reread the episode it's the answer to before reading 5 to have a grasp on things, or does Ryuukishi do a refresher when he does answer arcs? Eh, I'll probably read it again anyway out of boredom. Just wish I knew which episode it's going to be about.

Last edited by fourtwenty; 2009-06-09 at 05:32.
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Old 2009-06-09, 05:56   Link #1082
izmosmolnar
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Most likely something which eventually made it possible for her to summon Sakutarou despite all the odds. Many are theorizing it's something related to him, ergo a plushy.
It's possible it wasn't handmade by Rosa after all, and she just lazily bought it somewhere, and the captain happened to have the same one, or someone else at Rosa's company also made one, or maybe they even mass produced it between 1986 and '98.
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Old 2009-06-09, 06:45   Link #1083
Jan-Poo
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Christen View Post
Does anyone have a link and translation to the Enoura and La Plata theories? Those would be good material.
They are both theories regarding the solution of the epitaph, that were popularized in the japanese umineko wiki:

http://umineco.info/?真偽不明の解答考察

you can use found "plata" and found "enoura" to get to the right spots.

"Plata" referes to "rio de la plata" a south american river, whom some thinks being the "sweetfish river" of the epitaph. Enoura is a fishing port, and it follows the idea that Odawara is the "hometown" Kinzo's is referring to.

You can see a map here:
http://www.emikanya.com/en/images/menu_map.jpg

I don't quite get it, but it looks like they changed the kanji in a way that you could put a "の" symbol in the middle like in the odd part that Rosa noticed.
江之浦→ ENOURA →絵の裏
I don't quite get it how this should help.

Anyway since Ryukishi mentioned them, they are probably completely off mark.

About the blog

Quote:
If the Siestas were created by MARIA, the Stakes likely were as well. Beato cannot create beings, based on our current knowledge, so it is likely that she merely appropriated them for her usage during episodes two and three.
It is not 100% true. Beato cannot create beings from 0, only Maria can. However Beato can create beings from anything that isn't 0. In the case of Ronove, Gaap and the stakes, they are preexistent magic entities (being already part of some demonology theory), however Sakutarou is a complete new being.

Quote:
Speaking of furniture, Gaap likely has a real-world equivalent like Ronove does. Jessica, maybe, based on her fashion sense? (笑)
I always thought that Gaap's vessel is Shannon.
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Old 2009-06-09, 08:06   Link #1084
MagiToxin
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Just finished Episode 4, wow what a mindbender , although it was entertaining, it was of less 'quality' than the previous episodes. This is definitely my least favorite episode and the only I actually skimmed through some parts to just get the hell out of Ange+Stakes nonsense.

Spoiler for Ange+Stakes:


Spoiler for Blue truth:
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Old 2009-06-09, 08:27   Link #1085
Jan-Poo
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OMG I went back to the first pages to see the first comments to episode4 and I found out an incredible amount of false theories an false rumors! ha ha ha this made my day.

To sum it up at that time some people believed that:

- The blue text is for lies
- Jessica got killed by an umbrella
- Bern killed Ange and she's evil (well close maybe, but definitely not quite right)
- Battler can use magic in this episode
- Maria is the new Ronove's master
- Kasumi is the wife of a Kumasawa's (retard) son (LOL!)
- In the end Battler and Beatrice both die so ep5 will probably have Ange and Maria as protagonists
- Kanon is killed by Gaap
- Battler is killed in first twilight (how the hell someone could even think it?)

notable quote:

Quote:
Ronove basically say "Fuck this shit" and with his powers he opens a portal to Jessica's heart and is about to pour hot tea on when Krass comes up from behind him and Germain Suplexes him through a wall. Ronove then just proceeds to laugh saying how Battler's entire family is interesting and then kills Krass by ripping open a hole in his windpipe without touching him
Lol... but at least Sterling was there pointing out how it was completely false.
Apparently most of this stuff came from 4chan. Please when ep5 will be out someone must record everything they will say, because this is pretty epic shit.
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Old 2009-06-09, 08:53   Link #1086
MeoTwister5
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I've suddenly realized that Okonogi's words about how the truth is interpreted whether you see it with love or hate is probably the most important piece of advice in solving the mystery of Rokkenjima, so important that meta Battler pretty much needs this advice too.

And my gut tells me the Sumadera family must have something to do with all the version of the Rokkenjima murders in all the games. I can't exactly put my finger on it but I think I can expound on that when I finish this last episode.
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Old 2009-06-09, 08:54   Link #1087
Proto
Knowledge is the solution
 
 
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Quote:
From an Anti-Mystery perspective, I really cannot see why she would associate with them and consider them friends.
If you see it from the POV that they are just dellusions, and as such they just behave as she'd expect them to behave (not to mention that she doesn't know what happened from the anti-mistery perspective during those days) it becomes all the sadder.

Then again, Maria's line 'Don't pity my happiness' really stroke a chord within me, so I guess it isn't fair to say it is sad or anything of the sort.
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Old 2009-06-09, 09:06   Link #1088
MeoTwister5
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They most likely refuse pity because some people in the midst of delusional happiness are so thoroughly convinced of the truth of their world that they are content with it.

Or at the very least, from what I get off of Maria, that she is fine with her delusions regardless of whether she accepts them as such because she is happy in it, and it doesn't matter to Maria whether it's truth or not. As long as it gives her the joy she can't find elsewhere she's fine with it. In fact, I still have a sneakign suspicion that a lot of the contents of her own diary might be delusions as well, if her talks with Sakutaro are anyh indication anyway.

Ange feels like a mixed case. She clearly cannot live without knowing the truth of Rokkenjima 12 years and would side with Bern to find it out, yet at the same time finds some contentment having a "delusional" conversation with Maria and Sakutaro. Maria in comparison seems aware of the fine line between reality and fantasy, Ange I'm not too sure, which is probably why she associates with the Stakes freely.
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Old 2009-06-09, 09:09   Link #1089
MagiToxin
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Quote:
If you see it from the POV that they are just dellusions, and as such they just behave as she'd expect them to behave (not to mention that she doesn't know what happened from the anti-mistery perspective during those days) it becomes all the sadder.
The thing is neither POV make sense and you have proven my point by mentioning Maria.

Maria created Sakutaro out of the stuffed toy that her mother gave her. It made SENSE, whether it was a delusion (anti-fantasy) or she actually had magical power (anti-mystery) it still MADE sense because at the core, the undeniable truth, is that this thing represented some sort of happiness. It is a pure vessel that can be associated with.

Maria made her furniture out of things that are innocent and playful, she would not look up Jack the Ripper or Attila the Hun or even Hitler to conjure up a friend.

This is the basis of my argument of the stakes, at the core they are evil...and even if they weren't, it is undeniable that they hurt her family. If Ange was delusional then why use the very instruments of your family's demise as a means of happiness? If Ange is not delusional and the stakes do exist in reality, there's even less reason to like them.
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Old 2009-06-09, 09:51   Link #1090
Proto
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Quote:
it is undeniable that they hurt her family
Not if you consider that Ange's (not ANGE's) only source of knowledge for the stakes is Maria's diary, and probably the witch epitaph, from which the worst she'd be able to conjecture is that they were tools for the sacrifice. Don't suppose she knows all we know about them.
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Old 2009-06-09, 09:52   Link #1091
MeoTwister5
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I may have realized something HUGE regarding Kinzo, but of course it may only hold true if Battler's theory could hold water in all games.

Spoiler for Kinzo's true status during and prior to the games.:


So... am I simply insane or is there any plausibility to my theory? The problem is that I have yet to see Beatrice say anything about the matter in red, so it's possible my idea will eventually get shot down later in the game, so let me play a little more ways in. :lol:
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Old 2009-06-09, 11:17   Link #1092
izmosmolnar
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Don't worry she will reply about that in red. I won't tell you what, since it's going to be in the ep4 teaparty.

@ Jan-Poo, yeah I went back yesterday and I had my share of laugh about all those nonsense too. Killing with Umbrella? wth? Some anons definitely had a really vivid fantasy to come up with all that rubbish.
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Old 2009-06-09, 11:19   Link #1093
Marion
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Actually the 'Battler killed in the 1st twilight' was originally 'Everyone but Battler dies in the 1st twilight'. I think what they meant was '1st DAY' XD;
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Old 2009-06-09, 11:23   Link #1094
MagiToxin
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Quote:
Not if you consider that Ange's (not ANGE's) only source of knowledge for the stakes is Maria's diary, and probably the witch epitaph, from which the worst she'd be able to conjecture is that they were tools for the sacrifice. Don't suppose she knows all we know about them.
I'm pretty sure the Grimoire itself mentions how the stakes attacked her family. Ange also knowingly acknowledged that, check back during the scene where she was late for curfew in her academy.

As for
Quote:
So... am I simply insane or is there any plausibility to my theory? The problem is that I have yet to see Beatrice say anything about the matter in red, so it's possible my idea will eventually get shot down later in the game, so let me play a little more ways in. :lol:
Spoiler for Kinzo's real status:
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Old 2009-06-09, 11:33   Link #1095
Jan-Poo
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Quote:
Originally Posted by MagiToxin View Post

This is the basis of my argument of the stakes, at the core they are evil...and even if they weren't, it is undeniable that they hurt her family. If Ange was delusional then why use the very instruments of your family's demise as a means of happiness? If Ange is not delusional and the stakes do exist in reality, there's even less reason to like them.
I don't remember perfectly but I seem to remember Ange was thinking about this contradiction of being friendly with the stakes, however she came to the conclusions that furniture are tools, they are neither evil nor good, it's the one that commands them to be blamed. That is true for any POV. Of course you may argue that from the anti-mistery perspective, while the stakes didn't kill by their will, they still enjoyed it. However I think that even the cruelty and ill intent of a furniture mirrors the one of the user. That is why the stakes are not so evil when summoned by Ange.
Mammon also said: "I can't kill if you don't have the will to kill someone with your own hands." And that basically mean that the stakes are perfectly harmless if summoned by a pacifist.
In other words whatever applies for weapons in the anti-fantasy also applies for furniture (who are created from weapon vessels) in the anti-mistery.

Quote:
Was Battler's theoretical assertion that Kinzo may very well have been dead prior to October 4 applicable to all the previous games, to say that he was in fact already dead before the family meeting even started?

I have a strange belief that Kinzo may in fact very well be dead even before the games started. In fact, that he may have never been alive during ANY of the conferences to begin with. This is a massive mindfuck.
Spoiler for tea party ep4:
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Old 2009-06-09, 11:47   Link #1096
Marion
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@Jan_Poo:

Spoiler for Reply:
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Old 2009-06-09, 11:49   Link #1097
chronotrig
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Christen View Post
Does anyone have a link and translation to the Enoura and La Plata theories? Those would be good material.
Ah, sorry about that. The plan was for them to be added into the doc Grimoire, but I forgot to send it.

Here's a summary thanks to Dormeur:

Spoiler for La plata and Enoura Theories:
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Old 2009-06-09, 12:03   Link #1098
chounokoe
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Jan-Poo View Post
I don't quite get it, but it looks like they changed the kanji in a way that you could put a "の" symbol in the middle like in the odd part that Rosa noticed.
江之浦→ ENOURA →絵の裏
I don't quite get it how this should help.

Anyway since Ryukishi mentioned them, they are probably completely off mark.
I don't know if this was largely discussed before, because I haven't been following the discussion threads on individual Episodes that good, so correct me if it is something that has been largely put to rest already.

BUT those Kanji made my mind rotate a bit because I started to develop some theories I can't remember being in the game.

Spoiler for gold location theory:

Somehow this seems a bit too easy...and I bet this was discussed already, but right now, to me...I think it's a nice idea.

EDIT: Okay somebody posted something on this while I was sorting out ideas. So again sorry if this has already been discussed to death.
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Old 2009-06-09, 12:05   Link #1099
Jan-Poo
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Marion View Post
@Jan_Poo:

Spoiler for Reply:
Spoiler for episode4 tea party:


@chronotrig: thanx those are pretty interesting, expecially the enoura theory. However the painting in the main hall was only placed there 2 years before, so it is very unlikely there is a secret door behind that particular painting.

In the case of rio de la plata, I don't quite what happened to "the two", did they just ignored it?
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Old 2009-06-09, 12:10   Link #1100
chronotrig
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Right here:
Quote:
Originally Posted by chronotrig View Post
On it, there are Buenos Aires, the capital of Argentina, and Montevideo, the capital of Uruguay.
They are opposite each other across the river, Rio de La Plata.
[/SPOILER]
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