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Old 2009-06-09, 12:13   Link #1101
Jan-Poo
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Ah I see, I get it now.
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Old 2009-06-09, 12:14   Link #1102
MagiToxin
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I don't remember perfectly but I seem to remember Ange was thinking about this contradiction of being friendly with the stakes, however she came to the conclusions that furniture are tools, they are neither evil nor good, it's the one that commands them to be blamed. That is true for any POV. Of course you may argue that from the anti-mistery perspective, while the stakes didn't kill by their will, they still enjoyed it. However I think that even the cruelty and ill intent of a furniture mirrors the one of the user. That is why the stakes are not so evil when summoned by Ange.
Mammon also said: "I can't kill if you don't have the will to kill someone with your own hands." And that basically mean that the stakes are perfectly harmless if summoned by a pacifist.
In other words whatever applies for weapons in the anti-fantasy also applies for furniture (who are created from weapon vessels) in the anti-mistery.
Hmmm...that's actually a valid point. So what you're saying if I were to wield a knife in my hand and use it to stab someone, my will is transferred to the knife...however, suppose I gave my friend a commemorative knife (one of those Star Trek Collectibles or Lord of the Rings that are actually very sharp), he would look at it and stroke it everyday, thus making it into an a cute furniture rather than a weapon of death.
Hmm, I get you what you're saying. Thank you, Jan-Poo, I guess I'm still ticked off how giddy the stakes were when they killed everyone (especially Battler).

As for Kinzo's multiple appearances, I believe there is no one 'true' theory but a multitude of coincidences that helped keeping the illusion alive. Remember, Kinzo and Beatrice are a fans of coincidences and chance keeping the power of their magic alive.

Spoiler for Roger Ackroyd illusion:


Spoiler for kinzo:


By the way, about Maria's father.
Spoiler for maria:
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Old 2009-06-09, 12:18   Link #1103
Marion
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Spoiler for Replying to Maria, EP 4:
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Old 2009-06-09, 12:20   Link #1104
Jan-Poo
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Quote:
By the way, about Maria's father.
Spoiler for maria:
Spoiler for episode4:
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Old 2009-06-09, 13:45   Link #1105
Kamel
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Great game And indeed fitting conclusion for the quetion arcs

Spoiler for About the red truths concerning Battler's sin:


Spoiler for Some impresions concerning the whole game:
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Old 2009-06-09, 14:04   Link #1106
Jan-Poo
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Doesn't this red truth open a whole new way to consider the red truths?

Some time ago I pointed out how the red truths mentioning names could be completely invalid if those names do not refer to the persons we know of.
For example if someone says:

Gohda is dead

It has absolutely no meaning unless it is specified which Gohda died. Because sure there are certainly been a lot of Gohda who died in the past.

This episode4 seems to confirm my fears:

Names are not exclusive

And we know that this trick has already been used. A name of a person we know of has been used referring to an omonymous person we don't know anything about.

Then what can prevent us to question if the various:

Nanjo died
Genji died
Kumasawa died

etc etc, actually refer to the persons we know?

I seriously wouldn't want to resort to that, but it seems undeniable that this has been already done.
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Old 2009-06-09, 14:07   Link #1107
MagiToxin
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Spoiler for @Kamel:
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Old 2009-06-09, 14:13   Link #1108
BanditKing
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Spoiler for Battler Sin:
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Old 2009-06-09, 14:20   Link #1109
Alaya
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Spoiler for Some Theories:
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Old 2009-06-09, 14:24   Link #1110
Proto
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I'm pretty sure the Grimoire itself mentions how the stakes attacked her family. Ange also knowingly acknowledged that, check back during the scene where she was late for curfew in her academy.
Sorry, I will be more specific. What she will never know was the cruelty they displayed while performing those acts, that was beyond what was needed and unnecessary. (eg, she knows that they killed their family, but not that they made them suffer as much as possible while they were at it). Add to that that the events on the meta world probably weren't documented there either. Hence why she could 'easily' just dismiss what they did as orders they received that couldn't be disobeyed. For all she knows they performed it with sad faces and saying sorry all the while
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Old 2009-06-09, 14:39   Link #1111
Renall
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I wouldn't put too much stock in "soandso was dead and replaced by an impostor and when I say that name in red I'm not referring to the person posing as them." It's possible, but it's bad writing, so I'm going to hope that it isn't the case and that everyone is who they appear to be. Except one anyway.

Regarding Battler in episode 4, let's look at what happened from Battler's own perspective:

Spoiler for What Battler Saw in Ep4:

So here's a point of order: Battler doesn't have a frame of reference for any of the deaths. The only reason we assume people died in a given order is because we were shown the magic world scenes that placed them in one. But Battler didn't! The only thing we know is the order in which Battler found the bodies (George first, then whoever was in the dining room, etc.), and slightly more information from red text. So what I gotta ask is... why are we assuming any of this is even remotely correct?

The person blowing heads apart doesn't care about stealth, procedure, or the ritual. They started killing at around 10:20ish (possibly anyway), they took hostages alive (or pretended to), they used extensive telephone calls (previous killers wanted it to appear to be a witch, or just didn't want to be caught at all) which established at least when someone was probably still alive, they (or someone) appeared physically before Battler and didn't try to kill him, and they made almost no effort to create a closed room situation (the only closed room is the shed, which wasn't done by the same method and suggests another person did it). They seem to have cared nothing for the ritual at all. So why would they only kill six people at the conference? Who says they did that? Who says those people in the dining room died first?

Who are you going to believe? Gohda and Kumasawa, who somehow escaped what they claim was a brutal and unbelievable murder? Krauss and Kyrie, who claimed to be on the phone with Kinzo of all people (an old man with three months to live, supposedly) threatening their lives? Jessica, who knew George was dead when she wasn't supposed to? A random woman calling out of nowhere?

Who shuttered the house so thoroughly and locked it? Why? When did Maria die? How did Maria die? Why was Maria granted a compassionate death (I should note that if the face-smasher is the same person as from episode 1, Maria seems to trust them*)? Why was a set of keys left for Battler, or was it for Battler? Why were Nanjo and Shannon out at a well with a seal on it that is apparently more than just a rush job? Where is Kanon? Why did the staker, who is so meticulous usually, completely halfass his or her work here? And where did "Beatrice" run off to and why did she die? And did any of the order of killings presented in the magic world version of events happen like that at all?

Spoiler for * on Maria in ep4:
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Old 2009-06-09, 14:50   Link #1112
Alaya
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Spoiler for Maria's Death:
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Old 2009-06-09, 15:23   Link #1113
Jan-Poo
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About your facts reconstruction, Renal, I think Jessica left first, then George. At least that's what I remember. And Maria left a lot before Battler, because Battler was still talking at the phone when she left.

You also miss a telephone call, when they just tell the children to barricade themselves in the guesthouse. Only later they tell them to lock Gohda and Kumasawa.

Imho Gohda and Kumasawa are very suspicious in this episode. The people that speak on the phone could be fake or could be forced to do so. But those two aren't. The fact that they accept to be closed in the shed is also suspicious. Imho they are accomplices and the order to shut them was only done so they could freely move after their role in the guesthouse ended.

The third accomplice must have got the shed's key from Gohda and then opened the door for them. It is not clear how the closed room was created though, but there's a lot of usual things that haven't been stated in red about this closed room.

Episode4 overall make me think there is a huge conspirancy performed by the whole servants staff. Kanon was probably the last person to die (if he really exist).

At this point I'm assuming that a natural disaster happens after any game killing off whichever survives after the killings, probably a volcanic phenomena of some sort. That is Beatrice (the Volcano) awakes, no one will be left alive, and then the witch (the volcano) goes back to sleep.

A tragic coincidence so to speak. A natural disaster happens soon after a fierce series of murders.

This would explain the last riddle of ep4, why noone (except Eva) survives, and why the "umineko" aren't around. Also the fall of the torii (that happened in the summer of the same year) could have happened because of a geyser eruption or a tremor that signaled the incoming of a greater catastrophe.
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Old 2009-06-09, 15:29   Link #1114
Ikth7
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Squirrellord View Post
Spoiler:
Spoiler for My response:


Spoiler for Maria's test:


If anyone remembers the chapter that Maria calls the rabbits in the forest band by name, or can remember the names offhand, I would love to know what they are because I can't remember.

Last edited by Ikth7; 2009-06-09 at 16:15. Reason: Wanted to add a point
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Old 2009-06-09, 16:10   Link #1115
Squirrellord
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Various responses~
I've always been suspicious of Gohda, from the very first game. He's been working with the family for the shortest amount of time (2 years). I also think he's the one who picked Maria's flower, but that has little to do with suspecting him >_>;... Anyway, how do we know he's "Gohda"? Kanon, and Shannon came from the same orphanage, which is run by Kinzo, so they were hand picked by a trusted official. Genji had served Kinzo for decades, same with Kumasawa. Gohda, however, could be some assassin/conspirator who is using the name "Gohda Toshirou", of a real cook, to get into the Ushiromiya family. Any time "Gohda has been killed" is said in Red, the real Gohda Toshirou is dead, but not the fake. It was also his body used in the first game first night, whose identity would be confirmed by Beatrice in Red as Gohda Toshirou. Dead bodies do not count as people on the island. Thus, "Gohda dies", and leaves a corpse, but it is never the one we know. In the 3rd game, it is this Gohda who murders Nanjo. In the 4th game, Gohda murdered Kumasawa in the shed, and only made it appear that he himself was dead as well.

I personally think that Maria would have picked "let everyone else die", since she'd want to be together with her mother forever. Then again, since Rosa was already dead, we don't know if she even got the same test... Battler's test was different, slightly, because he didn't have anybody to pick (though, I'm sure "Ange" would show up if the same test was asked in later games)
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Old 2009-06-09, 16:36   Link #1116
Jan-Poo
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at ikth7. The parallelism between the siestas and Maria's bunnies is too evident to be dismissed. However I still believe that the siestas represent guns as well as the seven sisters represent the stakes. it still unclear why guns would be associated with maria's bunnies, but supposing the real culprit (Beatrice) is Maria's friend. Then maybe Beatrice borrowed Maria's power to give "life" from zero to create the entities known as siesta sisters.
It's fantasy isn't it? for the stakes Beatrice only had to read a demonology book, for the guns she asked Maria to imagine the names and personality of such "furnitures". Well this is just a guess.

@squirrellord In truth after reading episode1 I was pretty sure Gohda was the culprit. Ha ha I guess he really is suspicious. However right now I'm suspecting practically all the servants.

I don't know if the parallelism between fantasy and reality works, but let's suppose it is.

Ronove is Genji
Gohda is Goat Man
Kumasawa is Virgilia
Gaap is Shannon

The seven sisters are the stakes
The siestas are the guns

Certainly Kumasawa and Genji are no murderers however that also goes for the fantasy, they don't really kill anyone. So in the real world they are accomplices.

I'm still not sure about Nanjo. However the mastermind (Beatrice) must have used them all for something, promising them money in return. That is probably the reason behind those mysterious letters. Yet it is not clear why the name of their sons was used. Maybe because they thought the sons after receiving those letter would automatically give them to the parents since their names were stated as the receivers. They couldn't imagine they would die... still this is a very roundabout method...

Who the hell is this fake Beatrice who befriended Maria and taught her magic? Who could disguise herself (himself?) so to looks exactly as the woman in the portrait? Who would remember and have at heart Battler's sin even thought she isn't related to it? Who would posses such amount of money? Who would go that far to make everyone believe in the witch's existence, at the point to send messages in bottles thus creating a legend and various witch hunters over the world?
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Old 2009-06-09, 19:45   Link #1117
fourtwenty
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So one theory is Ange saw a Sakutaro doll or something in the futon store, but did Beatrice ever say that the one Rosa made was the only one in red? And I think it's kind of strange that Juuza or the boat captain didn't notice, especially Juuza. I thought he knew about Sakutaro? Or did she keep everything in the diary a secret?

Is there any lyrics for the song "Happy Maria!"? Such a fitting song for Beato.
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Old 2009-06-09, 19:55   Link #1118
k//eternal
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Originally Posted by Jan-Poo View Post
However the painting in the main hall was only placed there 2 years before, so it is very unlikely there is a secret door behind that particular painting.
Doesn't mean there can't be something written on the back of the portrait, or even something taped there.

Keys, a password, all kinds of stuff can be placed on the back of a portrait, without it having to be a secret door. In fact, it's possible that the Enoura theory yields a partial solution, with the next part of the puzzle stuck behind the portrait in some form or another.
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Old 2009-06-09, 20:05   Link #1119
Squirrellord
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Quote:
Originally Posted by fourtwenty View Post

Is there any lyrics for the song "Happy Maria!"? Such a fitting song for Beato.
http://umineco.info/?cmd=read&page=H...=happy%20maria

Nothing official, and multiple different ideas. Just read them as you listen to the song, and see what fits best
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Old 2009-06-09, 20:39   Link #1120
Tjfarmer
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Just want to point out a few theories and stuff I have, but first off a response to Squirrellords Kanon theory...

Spoiler for Kanon:


And heres my far-stretch theory.

Spoiler for theory:


I don't know what I'm thinking exactly..... everything will probably be disproven in a matter of posts anyway :P
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